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RE: Japanese 40MM?

 
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RE: Japanese 40MM? - 11/19/2012 4:04:03 PM   
sandman455


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Gary,

Appreciate your thoughts, but I really disagree.  Your documents are fine, but our interpretations are quite divergent.

. . .

Finally, the modern PHALANX system design debunks the concept that ROF doesn't matter ... ROF matters a great deal when TTT (Time To Target) flights are short.  Think of it this way: if I have a high enough ROF, it starts to look like a bat instead of a ball that I am attempting hit my target with.  It is a lot easier to hit a ball with a bat instead of another ball.  WWII systems never got even close to the ROF's of a gattling system in current use, but the theory holds.  And of course, attack speeds then aren't what they are today either ...



I understand completely although I'm a little concerned you didn't fully digest what I was trying to say.

Your reference to the CIWS being my evidence. I specifically pointed out that ROF only becomes relevent when you are facing a missile or kamikaze. As your firing solution gets easier, you always want to continue to throw rounds at the target. The faster your ROF, the more rounds you'll get in before the target track is lost. Each of these subsequent rounds should have an equal - or far more likely - better chance of hitting and more importantly, destroying the target. Yet, this all hinges on the target heading directly towards the mount. If it isn't then the firing solution becomes harder and your probability of hitting falls as the target approaches its CPA.

Anyway, just trying to throw a different light onto your AA picture.

In the end everyone must admit that towards the end of WW2 the USN was busying removing most of its 20mm Oerlikon mounts despite the gun's superior ROF, convenient 6-7 second magazines, easy changing barrels and ridiculous swing rates.

In its place they were putting guns that had much slower ROF, much smaller magazines, much more difficult barrels to change, and far slower swing rates. The only thing these new AA guns had on the 20mm Oerlikon was better ballistics - they were flatter shooting and hit with far more authority.

The only advantage a Type 96 25mm Hotchkiss had on a L70 20mm Oerlikon was . . .
Ballistics - it was flatter shooting and hit with more authority.

_____________________________

Gary S (USN 1320, 1985-1993)
AOCS 1985, VT10 1985-86, VT86 1986, VS41 1986-87
VS32 1987-90 (NSO/NWTO, deployed w/CV-66, CVN-71)
VS27 1990-91 (NATOPS/Safety)
SFWSLANT 1991-93 (AGM-84 All platforms, S-3 A/B systems)

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 31
RE: Japanese 40MM? - 11/19/2012 4:09:37 PM   
sandman455


Posts: 201
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Natali

So sorry. Thought this was a thread talking about Japanese 40mm T-91s. Didn't know it got turned into wargamers trolling the internet for things to say about gun mounts. I will be more careful in the future.


It kind of got derailed, but only because there was a good discussion on what makes an effective light AA mount.

Calculating the effectiveness of a light AA is a combination of ballistics and gun capabilities. I am of the impression the ballistics is the key statistic. Clearly others think differently. I do believe you can get into the arsey-versy you speak of if you start weighting gun statistics that don't have much bearing on real observed performance. Simply put - it is my assessment that swing rates and ROF are overrated for ship board light AA weapons of this era. I have tried to layout my reasons and everyone is free to pass judgment on them.

Remember, it is a game. This is the modder's section. A different perspective should not be cause for you to be more careful next time. This is what the forum is all about - exchanging ideas whether good or bad.



_____________________________

Gary S (USN 1320, 1985-1993)
AOCS 1985, VT10 1985-86, VT86 1986, VS41 1986-87
VS32 1987-90 (NSO/NWTO, deployed w/CV-66, CVN-71)
VS27 1990-91 (NATOPS/Safety)
SFWSLANT 1991-93 (AGM-84 All platforms, S-3 A/B systems)

(in reply to Natali)
Post #: 32
RE: Japanese 40MM? - 11/19/2012 7:21:37 PM   
Natali

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sandman455
The only advantage a Type 96 25mm Hotchkiss had on a L70 20mm Oerlikon was . . .
Ballistics - it was flatter shooting and hit with more authority.

Sandman, you win the brass ring with that! In my slo way that’s was I was trying to say. To shoot flat you want muzzle velocity and have authority you want bullet mass. That’s the old kinetic muzzle energy 1/2MV^2 and that where the Joule thing comes from (in kg and meters). Something has to do the normalize standard, what with all the different RoFs and all, so I picked a one second standard. Joules per barrel per second so everyone in the sandbox has the same size shovel.

I know it has a lot to do with BC and range, and the game has a separate equation for using range, so have to keep track of that. And michaelm made a special accuracy adjustment (separate from effect) so have to keep track of that too. And there is the explosive charge of some rounds that I keep track of too. But it’s like the Jewels that are the basics.

Stepping on eggs so to bring this back to the OP question, the 20mm had 838m/s MV and a .123 kg shell, the 25mm had a 899m/s MV and a .25 kg shell, the 40mm T-91 had a 594m/s MV and a .91 kg shell.

The raw muzzle energy for a single bullet is 43kJ for the 20mm, 101kJ for the 25mm, and 161 kJ for the 40mm T-91. When you factor in practical RoF and look at a abstracted one second burst, it becomes 202kJ for the 20mm, 202kJ for the 25mm, and 187kJ for the 40mmT-91.

When you factor in the explosive charge function it is 209kJ for the 20mm, 216kJ for the 25mm, and 251kJ for the 40mm T-91. That’s what energy could be delivered into an airplane for 1 second assuming you hit it (that’s why you have to keep michaelm’s accuracy adjustment in mind).

I would appear that the 40mm T-91 is marginally better than the 25mm T-96, but when you look at respective practical ranges (not in Babes yet, but soon) and that the 40mm has 24 ammo and the 25mm has 36 ammo, you can understand the decision to go with the 25mm, although the 40mm T-91 is a reasonable alternative if people are into bigger bullets.

(in reply to sandman455)
Post #: 33
RE: Japanese 40MM? - 11/19/2012 11:40:25 PM   
Dili

 

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The ballistic of 40mm was bad. The mount wasn't good and it was difficult to hit anything.

Italians replaced their 2 pounders for Breda 20mm single and doubles and 13.2 doubles in all their ships.


quote:

although the 40mm T-91 is a reasonable alternative if people are into bigger bullets.


Disagree. Effective range (read: tense trajectory) of 40mm is much worse.


< Message edited by Dili -- 11/19/2012 11:50:07 PM >

(in reply to Natali)
Post #: 34
RE: Japanese 40MM? - 11/20/2012 11:00:15 AM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Natali


quote:

ORIGINAL: sandman455
The only advantage a Type 96 25mm Hotchkiss had on a L70 20mm Oerlikon was . . .
Ballistics - it was flatter shooting and hit with more authority.

Sandman, you win the brass ring with that!

+1

And I am happy to leave it at that.

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to Natali)
Post #: 35
RE: Japanese 40MM? - 11/21/2012 4:07:51 AM   
dwg

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: inqistor
25mm Type 96 - 15 round magazine per gun, meaning 3.75 seconds of fire (240rpm cyclic). Could not be loaded/fed until the whole magazine was exhausted.

According to British 1940 research, 25mm would use around 30 rounds per engagement. This is just ONE reload, so not that big deal (of course other guns would need NOT to stop firing, so they are better). Also, they were air cooled, so not expected to fire for long time anyway.
[snip]




Note the ADGB qualifier on the data - if it is UK data then that's Air Defence Great Britain, meaning we're dealing with attacks on shipping in the North Sea and Channel (which makes sense as there wasn't much else in the way of shipping strikes happening at the same time). We need to be careful about extrapolating from this to any other theatre, because we're likely to be dealing with primarily single aircraft attacks with no need to engage second or later targets as the proximity to radar controlled (Chain Home and Chain Home Low)land-based air defence means raiders won't want to hang around as they don't hold air superiority. The Luftwaffe had no real experience in anti-shipping operations at this time, nor any real desire to develop them. There were some serious anti-shipping raids in the Dover Straits just prior to the Battle of Britain, but primarily involving Stukas rather than the low level raiders discussed here. A lot of the engagements considered may have been opportunity attacks rather than planned, aircraft dropping on anything they could find because they had been bounced down to low level by the defenders.

In the Med or Indian Ocean/Pacific, I'm not sure the same criteria apply, most of the time attacking aircraft are operating in squadron strength and larger groupings and with local air superiority in many cases (Midway and Torpedo 8 being an obvious exception). The Med convoys certainly saw more sustained air attacks, almost dawn to dusk at times, in which the greater on-mount ammo supply of the Pom-Pom would have been significant. And for that matter, I suspect Hailstorm, the sinking of the Yamato, and a whole slew of late war operations had the 25mm gunners on the respective targets wishing for an infinite ammo supply to take on the apparently infinite supply of attacking aircraft.

< Message edited by dwg -- 11/21/2012 4:09:12 AM >

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Post #: 36
RE: Japanese 40MM? - 11/21/2012 4:32:24 AM   
dwg

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sandman455
Analyzing the joules per second of a AA gun? Not sure if that qualifies as ballastics. Novel idea I guess, but it completely negates the imperative issue of having to hit the target.


It isn't ballistics, but that's because we aren't dealing with a ballistics problem, we're dealing with an operational research question (operations research for those on the west side of the Pond). The issue isn't measuring the individual likelihood of a hit from a particular shell (which is a ballistics+director/gunner issue), but the overall likelihood of mission-killing the attacker, which is operational research. Joules per second actually makes sense as a measure here, it's a measure of throw-weight density for want of a better term, combining both shell weight, with its likelihood of damaging an incoming bomber sufficiently on a hit to mission-kill it (mission-kill is the significant factor here, actual kills are useful strategically, but not tactically), while velocity and rate of fire determine the size of your cone of fire and the number of rounds in it, which determines the likelihood of a shell intersecting the attacker (IIRC there's German late-war OR work relating heavy flak hit probability to velocity alone, not the precision of the calculated detonation altitude). Combine the three measures of shell weight, velocity and ROF and you get joules per second. As a model for the problem it's fairly easy to push it into extremes, the throw-weight on main guns being pretty good, for instance, but not relevant to AA, but if you stick to the middle ground in which these guns actually lie, then I'm actually pretty impressed with it's simplicity and applicability as a model for the issue.


< Message edited by dwg -- 11/21/2012 4:36:00 AM >

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Post #: 37
RE: Japanese 40MM? - 11/21/2012 9:28:21 PM   
Dili

 

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For exploding shells like 40mm what is the relevance of round energy(besides ballistics)? Their are supposed to achive effects only by explosion(like bigger cal) or also by hitting?

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Post #: 38
RE: Japanese 40MM? - 11/21/2012 10:42:37 PM   
Natali

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

For exploding shells like 40mm what is the relevance of round energy(besides ballistics)? Their are supposed to achive effects only by explosion(like bigger cal) or also by hitting?


Just what do you think I was talking about when I was saying keep track of explosive charges of rounds? Do you think I am stupid? And just who the heck are you anyway, and why should I pay attention to your posts anyway?

(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 39
RE: Japanese 40MM? - 11/22/2012 1:30:20 AM   
dwg

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

For exploding shells like 40mm what is the relevance of round energy(besides ballistics)? Their are supposed to achive effects only by explosion(like bigger cal) or also by hitting?



It's dependent on mass, and therefore explosive content. Either a lighter round travels faster, sweeping a greater amount of volume per unit time and increasing the chance of a hit and therefore a mission kill, or a heavier round explodes with more energy if it hits and has a greater chance of a mission kill that way.

(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 40
RE: Japanese 40MM? - 11/22/2012 7:32:30 PM   
Natali

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dwg
It's dependent on mass, and therefore explosive content. Either a lighter round travels faster, sweeping a greater amount of volume per unit time and increasing the chance of a hit and therefore a mission kill, or a heavier round explodes with more energy if it hits and has a greater chance of a mission kill that way.

Thank you dwg. You can explain things better that I can. I get pissy now and again. I souuld just stfu and let you carry the ball. You do it so well. Ever thought of trying out at ASU? Anyway, Thanks.. Sam

(in reply to dwg)
Post #: 41
RE: Japanese 40MM? - 11/22/2012 7:33:54 PM   
Natali

 

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double post. sorry.

< Message edited by Natali -- 11/22/2012 7:35:38 PM >

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Post #: 42
RE: Japanese 40MM? - 11/23/2012 3:13:49 PM   
dwg

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Natali

Thank you dwg. You can explain things better that I can. I get pissy now and again. I souuld just stfu and let you carry the ball.


I'm not the one who came up with it as a model! I just have enough of a background in Operational Research to see where it is going.

quote:

Ever thought of trying out at ASU?


ASU?

(in reply to Natali)
Post #: 43
RE: Japanese 40MM? - 11/23/2012 6:05:49 PM   
Dili

 

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quote:

It's dependent on mass, and therefore explosive content. Either a lighter round travels faster, sweeping a greater amount of volume per unit time and increasing the chance of a hit and therefore a mission kill, or a heavier round explodes with more energy if it hits and has a greater chance of a mission kill that way.


Thanks but that is not my point. Sorry to cut the conversation now but there is no point after this:


quote:

Do you think I am stupid? And just who the heck are you anyway, and why should I pay attention to your posts anyway?


It seems so JWE.

(in reply to dwg)
Post #: 44
RE: Japanese 40MM? - 11/24/2012 8:47:11 AM   
inqistor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dwg

quote:

ORIGINAL: inqistor
25mm Type 96 - 15 round magazine per gun, meaning 3.75 seconds of fire (240rpm cyclic). Could not be loaded/fed until the whole magazine was exhausted.

According to British 1940 research, 25mm would use around 30 rounds per engagement. This is just ONE reload, so not that big deal (of course other guns would need NOT to stop firing, so they are better). Also, they were air cooled, so not expected to fire for long time anyway.
[snip]




Note the ADGB qualifier on the data - if it is UK data then that's Air Defence Great Britain, meaning we're dealing with attacks on shipping in the North Sea and Channel (which makes sense as there wasn't much else in the way of shipping strikes happening at the same time). We need to be careful about extrapolating from this to any other theatre, because we're likely to be dealing with primarily single aircraft attacks with no need to engage second or later targets as the proximity to radar controlled (Chain Home and Chain Home Low)land-based air defence means raiders won't want to hang around as they don't hold air superiority. The Luftwaffe had no real experience in anti-shipping operations at this time, nor any real desire to develop them. There were some serious anti-shipping raids in the Dover Straits just prior to the Battle of Britain, but primarily involving Stukas rather than the low level raiders discussed here. A lot of the engagements considered may have been opportunity attacks rather than planned, aircraft dropping on anything they could find because they had been bounced down to low level by the defenders.

In the Med or Indian Ocean/Pacific, I'm not sure the same criteria apply, most of the time attacking aircraft are operating in squadron strength and larger groupings and with local air superiority in many cases (Midway and Torpedo 8 being an obvious exception). The Med convoys certainly saw more sustained air attacks, almost dawn to dusk at times, in which the greater on-mount ammo supply of the Pom-Pom would have been significant. And for that matter, I suspect Hailstorm, the sinking of the Yamato, and a whole slew of late war operations had the 25mm gunners on the respective targets wishing for an infinite ammo supply to take on the apparently infinite supply of attacking aircraft.

I am not sure those are attacks against shipping. There is nothing about it in text (only, that target is Junkers 88). However my point is number of shells used against one plane, which hardly have influence on reload time.

Here is another report, this time about enemy fire (I am guessing German). One interesting fact is that 20mm can not hit diving bomber. Another - you can see, that firing AFTER crossing point is reached, increases hit ratio only by about 10% (which is similar to what sandman455 wrote earlier), so again train rate is not that much of a deal.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

It seems so JWE.


I am wondering if this so called "team" had more than one member in any given time.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to dwg)
Post #: 45
RE: Japanese 40MM? - 11/24/2012 9:54:17 AM   
btbw

 

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It what im talking about - low caliber, lesser chance to hit plane before drop ordnance. Comparing pure digitals nothing without understanding.

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Post #: 46
RE: Japanese 40MM? - 11/24/2012 6:07:00 PM   
Natali

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dwg
quote:

ORIGINAL: Natali
Thank you dwg. You can explain things better that I can. I get pissy now and again. I souuld just stfu and let you carry the ball.

I'm not the one who came up with it as a model! I just have enough of a background in Operational Research to see where it is going.
quote:

Ever thought of trying out at ASU?

ASU?

Don’t know from operational research. Get nice equations and helpful suggestions from Eldridge and Quintin and Norton, and I’m on my own. It’s like that padawan crap in Star Wars – no try, only do. In over my head and I know it.

Connected with some of the ‘old sweats’ on the forum and we are having some cool 5 way conversations and I’m getting a lot of help. I’m still way over my head and JWE and fcharton are after me to learn Chinese!! Of all things!!

They all keep saying that a thing needs to be done right, or not at all. I think JWE has a background in operational research. I know Matt Norton does. Don’t know about Francois Charton, but he knows too much not to. So I have good mentors.


Arizona State University. They could use some decent ball carriers.

(in reply to dwg)
Post #: 47
RE: Japanese 40MM? - 11/24/2012 10:32:43 PM   
Symon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili
It seems so JWE.

Listen, son, you want to urinate on people who know more than you, that's your problem. But don't you ever use my name in vain, because then it becomes my problem. And you do not ever want that.

JWE

(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 48
RE: Japanese 40MM? - 11/24/2012 10:49:53 PM   
DD696

 

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My, my....your first post using another login id in which you acknowledge your actual identity, and in it you are threatening someone.

Here we go again.

_____________________________

USMC: 1970-1977.

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Post #: 49
RE: Japanese 40MM? - 11/25/2012 1:19:22 AM   
Gräfin Zeppelin


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Who is this JWE ? He reminds me about Commander Stormwolf but is much more agressive. Is that the same guy who is always looking for opponents and creates new sock puppets? Japan was his name methinks. Just curious.

_____________________________



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Post #: 50
RE: Japanese 40MM? - 11/25/2012 1:49:16 AM   
khyberbill


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quote:

Listen, son, you want to urinate on people who know more than you, that's your problem. But don't you ever use my name in vain, because then it becomes my problem. And you do not ever want that.

JWE


Welcome back JWE. I am sure enjoying DBB. I have two PBEMs going right now with DBB and locked in a fierce battle over the control of Waingapoe in one of them. Supply and stack limits are treacherous no thanks to you!

_____________________________

"Its a dog eat dog world Sammy and I am wearing Milkbone underwear" -Norm.

(in reply to Symon)
Post #: 51
RE: Japanese 40MM? - 11/25/2012 1:50:06 AM   
khyberbill


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quote:

Who is this JWE ? He reminds me about Commander Stormwolf but is much more agressive. Is that the same guy who is always looking for opponents and creates new sock puppets? Japan was his name methinks. Just curious.

No, opposite pole from Japan. One of the modders of DaBigBabes.

_____________________________

"Its a dog eat dog world Sammy and I am wearing Milkbone underwear" -Norm.

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Post #: 52
RE: Japanese 40MM? - 11/25/2012 1:51:28 AM   
Gräfin Zeppelin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: khyberbill

quote:

Who is this JWE ? He reminds me about Commander Stormwolf but is much more agressive. Is that the same guy who is always looking for opponents and creates new sock puppets? Japan was his name methinks. Just curious.

No, opposite pole from Japan. One of the modders of DaBigBabes.

Ah I see, thank you

_____________________________



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Post #: 53
RE: Japanese 40MM? - 11/25/2012 3:45:25 AM   
PaxMondo


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And one of the dev team for AE.

JWE - GOOD Seeing you.  Great work on the Babes!!!


_____________________________

Pax

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Post #: 54
RE: Japanese 40MM? - 11/25/2012 5:17:30 PM   
Mac Linehan

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

And one of the dev team for AE.

JWE - GOOD Seeing you. Great work on the Babes!!!



I am most grateful to see you back, Sir... <very big grin>

Mac

_____________________________

LAV-25 2147

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Post #: 55
RE: Japanese 40MM? - 11/25/2012 5:25:15 PM   
Mac Linehan

 

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Gents and Lady -

About this thread -

Different opinions and views, on the 40mm and other caliber AA, all by individuals who know far more about the subject than I ever will. Have learned a lot, and enjoyed every moment of it. One of the reasons I am hooked on this forum...

My respect to you all.

Mac

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Post #: 56
RE: Japanese 40MM? - 11/25/2012 6:00:27 PM   
Symon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mac Linehan
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
And one of the dev team for AE.

JWE - GOOD Seeing you. Great work on the Babes!!!

I am most grateful to see you back, Sir... <very big grin>

Mac

Howdy Doody, Mac and Pax.

Not back in any meaningful way, although will check in from time-to-time. They are still scratching their heads about reactivating the JWE account so I decided heck with it and will let it die. Anyone who knows me, knows Symon, who I tend to channel after seeing one of SuluSea's posts. Caribbean Brothers must stick together, after all. Anyhoo, Baron Samedi sacrifice de chicken and say "take two splif, let de Sy-mon into your soul, and call me in de mornin".

Yeah, Babes people are still plugging away at many things. Game system and it's interactions with data are sooo convoluted and complex that the list of things to look at is immense. Couple people are looking at some of the things that I was, frankly, slap-dash at. They are developing some mathematical algorithms that are, in a word, "elegant". Sam's take on the 40mm (and auto AAA, in general), and his solution, blew me away.

I am pretty much letting go, since a lot of our activities are outside the scope of AE. Occasionally, when something seems to fit, I get pulled in, but that's about it. So I'll be around and available by pm. Might even get a wild hair and do an AAR about one of our games.

So Ciao, and regards to you both, and all the others who have wished me well. JWE

(in reply to Mac Linehan)
Post #: 57
RE: Japanese 40MM? - 11/25/2012 6:26:28 PM   
Mac Linehan

 

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JWE -

I really like your avatar - it (at least to me) sums up Symon's attitude and philosophy.

I have saved it to my pictures folder. Does that make me a kind of grouppie...?

Ok - don't mean to go off track on this excellent thread.

Mac

_____________________________

LAV-25 2147

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Post #: 58
RE: Japanese 40MM? - 11/25/2012 9:40:40 PM   
Dili

 

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quote:

who know more than you


That reminds me of this thread...

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2093008&mpage=1&key=okinoshima%2Clength�

(in reply to Mac Linehan)
Post #: 59
RE: Japanese 40MM? - 11/28/2012 2:13:36 AM   
dwg

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: inqistor
I am not sure those are attacks against shipping. There is nothing about it in text (only, that target is Junkers 88)


Who else would be using 40mm and 20mm in that time frame?

quote:


However my point is number of shells used against one plane, which hardly have influence on reload time.


My point was this is only valid in the single attacker case, if there are multiple attackers, as was more typical in the Med and the Pacific, then rounds on mount becomes a significant factor, as does reload time.

quote:


Here is another report, this time about enemy fire (I am guessing German). One interesting fact is that 20mm can not hit diving bomber. Another - you can see, that firing AFTER crossing point is reached, increases hit ratio only by about 10% (which is similar to what sandman455 wrote earlier), so again train rate is not that much of a deal.


That close-range AA struggles to hit aircraft that don't enter its effective range is reasonably well known. But that's only part of the dynamics of engagement. Hitting the enemy aircraft is useful, but tactically it's no more useful than any other method of mission-killing him, and lots of tracer coming up can be just as effective, even if it doesn't get up to the necessary altitude - there's a reason weak AA fits are sometimes referred to as scare-guns, the hope wasn't so much to kill the target, as to scare it into missing, and lots of tracer can do that without ever hitting. Equally an attacker that has passed overhead has mission-killed itself, it's out of the battle, what you need to concentrate on is acquiring the next target, which is where train rate comes in. Train rate is also significant for escorts trying to protect other shipping, the crossing rate is much higher for targets attacking nearby shipping rather than the firing ship, requiring a higher training rate.

< Message edited by dwg -- 11/28/2012 2:14:56 AM >

(in reply to inqistor)
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