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RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Saper)

 
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RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/6/2013 9:42:56 PM   
Flaviusx


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Harry is getting some good licks in, but I just don't think it is wise to push the blizzard offensive beyond a certain point after seeing what happened to Kamil. Kamil killed 50 or more divisional equivalents. It just didn't matter very much once the weather flipped over. The Red Army was simply to weak to absorb the inevitable Axis rebound.

The Red Army here is just shy of 6 million. This is pretty decent at this stage. But I'd want to get it up to 7 million going into summer, and I expect Harry isn't getting much more than 100k in replacements per turn now. That's why it is important imo to stop the offensive sometime in February and give the army a chance to grow. Between combat losses and attrition, it's hard to grow the Red Army. It's also hard to get forts going at all during the winter unless it stops and digs in and does so with several units per hex and lots of construction points.

If Harry merged too many units, of course, those replacements won't have as many places to go as he'd like.

I think he should stop after getting Tula and start rationalizing his lines going into February. His center is exceptionally weak in units. I don't see much point in shooting for places like Stalino or Kursk.

His motor pool is taking a beating, too. Fully half of it is in repair at the moment.

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Post #: 271
RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/7/2013 12:02:28 AM   
Pelton

 

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Good stuff Flaviusx, stopping in early February is smart. In my game I basicly stopped Feb 1st other then where I have a few chances for a huge pocket.

I had 6.5 to 6.8 million most of the summer and am going to go on offensive when rivers freeze and should have 7+ million men.

You should have saved layers and layers of forts around Moscow by now. I am kinda surpised poeple dont have 70 miles of level 3 forts by June. Its really not that hard and its the one city you can't afford to lose.

Oka north should be Verdun its not that hard to do.

Oka south simply with draw as needed.

You still have to grind west, but you do have a good OOB to work with.

Just hang on for a while.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 1/7/2013 1:47:51 AM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

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Post #: 272
RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/7/2013 1:20:47 AM   
M60A3TTS

 

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Make sure you keep moving arms factories to the east. At 299 you don't want to lose any more.

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Post #: 273
RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/7/2013 5:14:26 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Harry is getting some good licks in, but I just don't think it is wise to push the blizzard offensive beyond a certain point after seeing what happened to Kamil. Kamil killed 50 or more divisional equivalents. It just didn't matter very much once the weather flipped over. The Red Army was simply to weak to absorb the inevitable Axis rebound.

The Red Army here is just shy of 6 million. This is pretty decent at this stage. But I'd want to get it up to 7 million going into summer, and I expect Harry isn't getting much more than 100k in replacements per turn now. That's why it is important imo to stop the offensive sometime in February and give the army a chance to grow. Between combat losses and attrition, it's hard to grow the Red Army. It's also hard to get forts going at all during the winter unless it stops and digs in and does so with several units per hex and lots of construction points.

If Harry merged too many units, of course, those replacements won't have as many places to go as he'd like.

I think he should stop after getting Tula and start rationalizing his lines going into February. His center is exceptionally weak in units. I don't see much point in shooting for places like Stalino or Kursk.

His motor pool is taking a beating, too. Fully half of it is in repair at the moment.


I'm having so much fun finally being on the offensive that it will be difficult to rein myself in. But I will take your advice as best I can Flavius. The main difference between Kamil and myself at this stage of the War is that his Red Army had about 600,000 fewer men. Surprisingly, even though he did destroy the equivalent of some 28 enemy divisions during blizzard, the size of the German army is about the same. I have probably merged more brigades than I should have, but I have also built quite a few of them. I think I have about 50 of them at the moment and may build a few more. Of course I'll need to have at least 275 APs saved up by April in order to build 12 Tank corps and attach SUs to them.

In any event, my plan is to call off the major blizzard offensive in early February. Though I'll probably continue atacking in some areas if I feel I have something to gain.

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 274
RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/7/2013 5:17:45 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Good stuff Flaviusx, stopping in early February is smart. In my game I basicly stopped Feb 1st other then where I have a few chances for a huge pocket.

I had 6.5 to 6.8 million most of the summer and am going to go on offensive when rivers freeze and should have 7+ million men.

You should have saved layers and layers of forts around Moscow by now. I am kinda surpised poeple dont have 70 miles of level 3 forts by June. Its really not that hard and its the one city you can't afford to lose.

Oka north should be Verdun its not that hard to do.

Oka south simply with draw as needed.

You still have to grind west, but you do have a good OOB to work with.

Just hang on for a while.


I have tried to maintain the forts I had around Moscow prior to Winter; but perhaps you are right that I should start digging in more here. However, despite what I thought earlier I'm not at all sure that Moscow will be Saper's objective come summer. It will be very interesting to see where he does strike.

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 275
RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/7/2013 5:20:38 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Make sure you keep moving arms factories to the east. At 299 you don't want to lose any more.


I have continued to move factories East throughout Winter and will continue to do so throughout the Spring. You are right that 299 Arms factories is not much to work with. But I will have to make them do as best I can.

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 276
RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/7/2013 8:13:47 PM   
gingerbread


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Once you call off the offensive, your ARM situation should improve somewhat provided you set the TOE% for the Cav to 50%.

I'm more and more questioning the value of the Cav Corps (in the bangs-per-buck aspect) - I realize that they are key to a successful 1st Blizzard offensive, in particular they are key to surrounding defenders, but how valuable is a successful 1st Blizzard?

It costs ~10k ARM to fill out the cav squads in a corps (from 50% to 100% in 3 divisions though more can be saved if an equal number of cav divisions are disbanded, but I'm not there yet...) so we're looking at 100k-140k ARM if building Corps with almost all division that survived until December.

In this game, the ARM pool did not crater so maybe Cav Corps would be the best use of ARM then, but in many games the Soviet are living hand to mouth and in those I think it's more doubtful expense.

There is of course the fun factor - it's just 1's & 0's in a computer so why care about ARM?

(in reply to Harrybanana)
Post #: 277
RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/7/2013 8:35:41 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

I'm more and more questioning the value of the Cav Corps (in the bangs-per-buck aspect) - I realize that they are key to a successful 1st Blizzard offensive, in particular they are key to surrounding defenders, but how valuable is a successful 1st Blizzard?


I don't know how you quantify arms to their help in capturing units, and their additional attack ability to aid in obtaining Guards formations and drive down enemy morale (Axis still suffer morale loss just for engaging in combat during First Winter, correct?). Guards Cav Corps also give the Red Army a reach into enemy territory at times superior to Tank Corps in '42 because of their terrain advantages, as well as morale and unit bonuses to movement.
I like them.

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Post #: 278
RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/7/2013 9:36:51 PM   
gingerbread


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Once the Cav Corps are up and running, I think that everybody likes them (Soviet, that is) and I don't question that they contribute to the obtainment of the effects on losses, Guards and lowered morale that you mention but I do question if it is worthwhile to pursue those effects since it more often that not leaves the Soviets with a weakened army and a wrecked vehicle pool. Quite possibly it is better to take the easy wins and ditto territorial gains and then shift to strength building very soon after the New Year celebration.

If that is the plan from the start, are Cav Corps worth the cost? That is the issue I'd like to discuss.

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Post #: 279
RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/7/2013 9:46:00 PM   
hfarrish


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

more often that not leaves the Soviets with a weakened army and a wrecked vehicle pool. Quite possibly it is better to take the easy wins and ditto territorial gains and then shift to strength building very soon after the New Year celebration.

If that is the plan from the start, are Cav Corps worth the cost? That is the issue I'd like to discuss.


Cav Corps are pretty truck efficient are they not? I certainly thought they had significant advantages vis a vis Tank and Mech Corps on that front.

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Post #: 280
RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/7/2013 9:49:08 PM   
morvael


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The problem I see in early game is that Cav Div is worthless, so a Cav Corps turns these into a 1.5-2 rifle div equivalent that takes 1 stack space. For late game I see them as cheap Mech Corps, one that needs more ARM but less VEH to refit. Also, one can attach Tank Bns and Sappers to those Corps to make them CV equivalent of 1942 TOEs for Tank Corps, which is a bit slower (doesn't count on defense) - but they cost 5AP to form, not 20. For me - Cav Corps are great.


quote:

ORIGINAL: hfarrish

Cav Corps are pretty truck efficient are they not? I certainly thought they had significant advantages vis a vis Tank and Mech Corps on that front.



80 vs 1219 :)

< Message edited by morvael -- 1/7/2013 9:51:04 PM >

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Post #: 281
RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/7/2013 11:15:49 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

Quite possibly it is better to take the easy wins and ditto territorial gains and then shift to strength building very soon after the New Year celebration.
If that is the plan from the start, are Cav Corps worth the cost? That is the issue I'd like to discuss.


If you're not going to take advantage of their strengths, are they worth having?

I like to put them in Shock Armies (to maximize their MPs) and try to create envelopments, hound the Germans across the map, and then break them down for defensive depth, entrechment, and reserve activation in '42.

I think worrying about the strength building of the Red Army in the first winter is misguided (premature). You want to bloody the Wehrmacht's nose, gain some breathing space and get those Guards activations (I think that is the most important goal)

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 282
RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/8/2013 1:44:04 PM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Good stuff Flaviusx, stopping in early February is smart. In my game I basicly stopped Feb 1st other then where I have a few chances for a huge pocket.

I had 6.5 to 6.8 million most of the summer and am going to go on offensive when rivers freeze and should have 7+ million men.

You should have saved layers and layers of forts around Moscow by now. I am kinda surpised poeple dont have 70 miles of level 3 forts by June. Its really not that hard and its the one city you can't afford to lose.

Oka north should be Verdun its not that hard to do.

Oka south simply with draw as needed.

You still have to grind west, but you do have a good OOB to work with.

Just hang on for a while.


I have tried to maintain the forts I had around Moscow prior to Winter; but perhaps you are right that I should start digging in more here. However, despite what I thought earlier I'm not at all sure that Moscow will be Saper's objective come summer. It will be very interesting to see where he does strike.


I know this picture is a little late, but I had the belt before blizzard set-up a few hexes before the Narr river and along Oka. A bunch of brigades on rdy and a few forts mixed in. Once I pushed in blizzard I moeved it west. By summer 42 basicly all stacks of 40+ cv with move forts behind it ect ect.

GHC only moved the line 30 miles late summer then stopped, because of hvy loses.

Now once rivers freeze its my jumping off pt or I can thin things out and attack some plase esle allong front.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Harrybanana)
Post #: 283
RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/12/2013 7:10:44 PM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

Your're probably in your mid 50's, presently single, graduate of a small liberal arts college in an eastern state (Penn ??) with a BS in math or science ???? Bald ??? A nickname is often used for reason of a lack of !!!!



Looking at your avatar, is this a desription of yourself too, Hitman?

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Post #: 284
RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/13/2013 2:51:39 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower


quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

Your're probably in your mid 50's, presently single, graduate of a small liberal arts college in an eastern state (Penn ??) with a BS in math or science ???? Bald ??? A nickname is often used for reason of a lack of !!!!



Looking at your avatar, is this a desription of yourself too, Hitman?


The mid 50's part was right, well done Hitman. But I'm still married (27 years), Canadian, Graduate of the University of Victoria (which is about as West as you can get in North America), BA with a major in Political Science (which really isn't a science at all), and balding (not quite there yet). "Harry" was a nickname given me as a child by my classmates, a derivative of my surname. It became so commonly used that in highschool many people thought it was my real name. The "banana' part, well we all have to keep some secrets.

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Post #: 285
RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/13/2013 3:00:04 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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Turns 31, 32 and 33

have been completed, but nothing that is screenshot worthy has happened. I've continued to advance 1 or 2 hexes a turn. But I will not capture Kursk, Kharkov or Stalino. So far during blizzard I have destroyed a total of about 12 German division equivalents. The German army remains at about 3.2 million men and the Russian at just under 6 million. Now that January is done I am calling off the offensive everywhere except around Orel, which I would still like to capture. It will be interesting to see what happens during the snow turns.

< Message edited by Harrybanana -- 1/13/2013 7:51:58 PM >

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RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/13/2013 8:02:36 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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One interesting thing that has occured is that I still have a solitary tank division that has not yet "upgraded" to a tank brigade. I've actually found this division somewhat useful as it is stonger than the tank brigades and, since January, has up to 50 MPs. If I had more of them I think I could actually have given Saper a surprise or two. Not sure why this particular division has been so resistant to converting to a brigade. Part of the reason obviously is that I have never had it on refit. Does anyone know if there is a way to save several tank divisions from upgrading to brigades and, if so, would it be advantageous to do so?

If anyone has the answers I have a few more questions with respect to this tank division:

1. If it sticks around until April 42 can I use it with 2 tank brigades to form a Tank Corps?
2. If it gains Guards status (it is close) and then converts to a tank brigade, will the brigade have guards status?
3. When is converts to a brigade will it retain it's wins and losses?

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RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/13/2013 8:16:04 PM   
Mike29

 

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I had tank divisions and 1 motorized during Blizzard, they had40+ MP. My first Guards tank brigade is former tank division which take active role during Blizzard. Unfortunately I dont know how increase probability of saving tank divisions from downgrade to brigades.

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Post #: 288
RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/13/2013 9:26:47 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

Does anyone know if there is a way to save several tank divisions from upgrading to brigades and, if so, would it be advantageous to do so?


No idea what the 'recipe' is to avoid the downgrade to a brigade, but they are definitely advantageous if you have them in the first winter. They won't have some of the cavalry corps' MP advantages (infantry terrain costs, and the cavalry enemy territory cost adjustment), but their potential MP total can more than make up for that if they can blaze through the cavalry corps' footprints in the snow.

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Post #: 289
RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/14/2013 6:09:30 AM   
Walloc

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike29

I had tank divisions and 1 motorized during Blizzard, they had40+ MP. My first Guards tank brigade is former tank division which take active role during Blizzard. Unfortunately I dont know how increase probability of saving tank divisions from downgrade to brigades.


Well, there is no magic to it as far as i know. Apart from keeping them out of combat since there is a roll involved, if routed IIRC.
Its a strait 20% roll each turn for changing OOB, like every other OOB change, with nothing affecting that so a question of pure luck.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

(in reply to Mike29)
Post #: 290
RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/15/2013 5:28:49 PM   
Schmart

 

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No magic for keeping Tank Divs. Routing makes them convert quicker, and random die rolls each turn. If anything survives to Dec 41, IIRC they will automatically convert to Brigades in Jan 42 no matter what.

< Message edited by Schmart -- 1/15/2013 5:34:06 PM >

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Post #: 291
RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/16/2013 1:24:36 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Schmart

No magic for keeping Tank Divs. Routing makes them convert quicker, and random die rolls each turn. If anything survives to Dec 41, IIRC they will automatically convert to Brigades in Jan 42 no matter what.


I thought putting a unit on refit made it more likely to upgrade. In any event it is February 42 and I still have one tank division, so they obviously don't all automatically convert to tank brigades in January 42.

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RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/16/2013 4:53:54 PM   
HITMAN202


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I'm getting to be a big fan of yours. What a witty comment on my surmises !!!! What about Sillyflower's ???? Well I've started a game with him and one of his compatriots and I'm afraid to reveal too much about me in order to keep a psychological advantage !!!! But seeing his skill with the Soviets in AAR's and reviewing his comments on active games, I'm in big trouble.

My avatar ??? I do bathe.


_____________________________

WITE is a good addiction with no cure.

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Post #: 293
RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/16/2013 11:59:12 PM   
sillyflower


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The real Sillyflower is my wife. the avatar is not her but she used to by the legs of pretty polly tights in her modelling days.

Belphegor is a compatriot of harrybanana not me. He is also the sole member of the folliculely challenged community in our game

_____________________________

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Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

(in reply to HITMAN202)
Post #: 294
RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/17/2013 12:01:29 AM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

What about Sillyflower's ???? Well I've started a game with him and one of his compatriots and I'm afraid to reveal too much about me in order to keep a psychological advantage !!!!




No chance of such advantage. My original degrees were in experimental psychology.

_____________________________

web exchange

Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

(in reply to HITMAN202)
Post #: 295
RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/17/2013 6:24:01 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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T34 Blizzard in the North Soviet Zone, Snow elsewhere. I'm glad I called off the offensive everywhere but in the North.






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RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/17/2013 6:25:25 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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Moscow Front




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RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/17/2013 6:31:29 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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A closer look at the action around Orel. Saper's units are quite thick in this area. It makes the going tough; but by timing my attacks right I can force some of his units to retreat multiple hexes causing additional retreat losses. In some cases I'm actually inflicting more casualties than I take. I could be in some trouble if Saper gets a snow turn here, but there is only a 9% chance per turn of that (or have I got the weather tables wrong again).




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RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/17/2013 6:40:11 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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Kursk to Kharkov.

FlaviusX mentioned a few post back that I was weak in the centre and he was right. I am trying to remedy that, but this is still a concern for me. I think Saper knows this as he is gathering a few mobile units in this area. If another snow turn happens in the Central Soviet zone in the next few turns he can cause me some damage.




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RE: Defending Mother Russia Saper vs Harrybanana (No Sa... - 1/17/2013 6:43:05 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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The South




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