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D21-Issues

 
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D21-Issues - 11/4/2012 2:52:30 PM   
Cfant2

 

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Hi all!

Playing D21 and enjoying this great scenario Who is not enjoying it are my troops, I guess I have two main "problems" and would like to ask for assistance.

My main problem is rail repair. Turn 9 is played, so I am at the beginning of turn 10. The front has reached the Luga and there is fighting in the streets of Kiev and Smolensk already. Of course, the supply lines cannot catch up with the troops at the moment (although the offensive is about to stall any moment). But I am not sure, if I really understood how to repair the railroutes. I don't even have a railway to Minsk at the beginning of turn 10! As shown in the picture, I sent three Bautrupps to build a line, but they are on vacation it seems. Not a single hex has been repaired around the Bautrupps in 4 whole turns! Don't know, what my troops eat in the moment. Corpses, I guess.



Second problem: The infantry-losses. Please note, that the losses only mean HRS. A lot of soviet counters have been destroyed, so heavy casualities were to be expected. But while my Panzers and aircraft show very moderate losses, the heavy infantry is bleeding dry very fast. In fact I was not able to have less losses than the reinforcement-rate in any turn.



I read in an aar, that battles were made more costly than in FitE. That's fine, but regarding the improved defense of 3.4, I wonder, if the Wehrmacht can sustain a four-year-war. In my experience, even small skirmishes (or even failing soviet counterattacks) will cost the germans a lot of HRS. Taking the gigantic theatre of this war, I'm not sure if it has been made to costly

Last point:

When I took Minsk, I got a message "industry destroyed", but got no numbers. I also could not find them in the briefing. Is it 5% per city? How much is Leningrad? Are the percent of the production-decrease calculated from the 34% production of the start (which would make it very important to take as much production centers as possible before the first gear up)?

Thanks for any answers - and for this great scenario!

Post #: 1
RE: D21-Issues - 11/4/2012 3:30:35 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

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Cfant2,

I sent a PM with request.

Klink, Oberst

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Post #: 2
RE: D21-Issues - 11/5/2012 2:58:40 AM   
fogger

 

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Check and see if there is a destroyed bridge under the 4 rail repair units. If there is then you will need to move an engineer unit to repair the bridge first. The rail repair units are unable to repair bridges.

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RE: D21-Issues - 11/5/2012 5:36:21 AM   
Cfant2

 

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Thanks to both of you for your help

(in reply to fogger)
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RE: D21-Issues - 11/5/2012 4:51:10 PM   
TPOO

 

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I will try to answer some of these questions but am not at my D21 computer so I do not have the briefing in front of me.

Minsk is not a production city in the game so there is no reduction to Soviet forces or industry.
Elmer likes to park a lot of units around Minsk and not have them retreat like historically happened so German forces can use a lot of manpower trying to capture the city. It is difficult to capture this city as quickly as was historical.

One main key to quick rail repair is that the first 2 turns the Germans get no rail damage when capturing Soviet hexes. Make sure you can capture as many Soviet rail hexes as possible on your chosen route of advance. We did this to try to simulate the rail gauge being the same for some of the early advance.
Do not let the Soviets recapture any of these hexes and protect them. After that the game engine takes over and decides what hexes get repaired. You can only influence the repair and it is never the same from one game to the next.

Thanks for playing
Rick

(in reply to Cfant2)
Post #: 5
RE: D21-Issues - 11/6/2012 9:04:54 AM   
Cfant2

 

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Hi!

I'm on work and not on my TOAW-Computer either, so I cannot post screens, but Minsk is written *Minsk* in the scenario (I thought this means: production center) - and I'm sure I got a "industry destroyed" in the news report when I took the city. Why is this, when there is no reduction? The historical date of the capture of Minsk does not mean much, I agree I don't think it's possible to get there in two turns, and there is no need to be there at the historic date.
Supply on the other hand is a problem. Of course I tried my best to make use of the opening turns. I am at the very beginning of turn 11, and my units stand 140 km west of Bryansk, on the eastern outskirt of Smolensk and 80 km of Leningrad. Rail lines are not even established to Riga, far less Minsk. At this speed of repair I will loose the war in '41 due to supply problems. My spearheads get 3-6 supply a turn. Even if I don't move, it would take them until summer 1942 to refill I would suggest, that the player get's 2-3 rail engineers which he can move. The rest may stay with the engine, but so at least the player would have the feeling he could do something about this supply-desaster Otherwise I doubt I get a railway to Kiev earlier then 1942.

What about losses? As I wrote, I got quite far within the 10 turns. Therefore I was very pleased, that only 50 PzIV were lost so far. This was, until I thought about my replacement rates I only got 30 new panzers in 10 turns... Same is true to HRS. Panzers I may take out of the frontline and give some rest. But infantry I can't. My reserves are decreasing already. Still 3500 HRS on the hand, but getting 431 a turn and loosing 1000 a turn is not too good.

Please note, I just want to discuss it. I'm far from criticising the scenario or its balance. If others have played D21 for 3.4 without this problems, then it is simply my fault. But we have to keep in mind, that this ist the „golden age“ of Barbarossa. The Wehrmacht will never again be so superior to the Sowjets, having so much shock on a regulary base, having so „few“ opposing russian counters. I make no (ok, a few, but really not very much) „head-on“ attacks at strong russian positions, but still – even easy victories cost me dearly. I don’t know, if the version for TOAW 3.4 has been tested very much, but we all know the balance of power will shift towards the SU. If the germans cannot even replace their losses of the first few month, they will not stand a 400 turns scenario, I fear…

Again I'd like to mention, that all this is just my personal oppinion. If you say: "Everything is perfect, play better!" it's fine with me But it's a great scenario and I would be sorry, if it's over after the Russian winter offensive, because germans have no troops left

Edit: In the german forum I found an D21-AAR (started 2010). The screens show: It's version 3.2 - and the german replacement rates are the same as in the 3.4 version of D21. I regard it a problem, as the defensive has grown much stronger in 3.4. Of course the SU will face the same problem, maybe even worse, as Elmer is not too clever. Still I regard it as a serious balancing-problem.

Edit 2: Oberst Klink was so nice to have a look on the railway-issue. He thinks to remember, that the Bautrupps have to be embarked to work. Iirc this is not mentioned in the briefing. Can anyone clarify this?

Edit 3: Back home Regarding Minsk:



< Message edited by Cfant2 -- 11/6/2012 4:33:44 PM >

(in reply to TPOO)
Post #: 6
RE: D21-Issues - 11/6/2012 4:49:02 PM   
Cfant2

 

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And here a view on the supply. Here you can see, how far the railway is behind the front (80 km to Leningrad). Picture from the beginning of turn 11.



The railway is still far from Riga. Please keep in mind, that in the first few turns I absolutly tried to conquer as many rail-hexes as possible. Without that, the railway would propably still be far behind from where it is now.
Again: No critics, just want to be sure, that this is wanted. Maybe it's necessary for gameplay balance, but I worried about this... I would understand, if the engine had concentrated on one main line, neglecting the other regions, but railway is behind the front so far on all parts of the front.

(in reply to Cfant2)
Post #: 7
RE: D21-Issues - 11/6/2012 5:31:31 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

Posts: 1322
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From: Germany
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Cfant2,

it would also help to have a look at the toaw_log.txt. There one can analyse the losses, as well as the mechanisms about RR repair; basically the lot. You know which command switch to use to turn the toaw_log.txt on?

http://forums.gamesquad.com/showthread.php?86279-Toaw-command-line-switches-TOAW-LOG

Klink, Oberst

@Rick, nice seeing you around. Steve is offline and on-job in NY becasue of 'Sandy'.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam
(Marcus Porcius Cato Censorius)

Visit the Gefechtsstand!

(in reply to Cfant2)
Post #: 8
RE: D21-Issues - 11/6/2012 6:02:48 PM   
TPOO

 

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Cfant2,

Make sure you are playing the latest version, downloadable from Steve's website. If you are not using that version than you may not be playing with the railroad repair changes that were put in effect following the release of the version that came with 3.4. With the latest version you get temporary supply points at Pskov and Smolensk when captured and then disappear sometime during the Soviet winter offensive.

(in reply to Oberst_Klink)
Post #: 9
RE: D21-Issues - 11/6/2012 6:42:04 PM   
Cfant2

 

Posts: 175
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@Oberst Klink: I will turn it on before the next combat round. Maybe I'm just a bad general But I'm really concerned, for replacement-rates seem to be the same in the 3.2 version as in the 3.4 version. This has to break the balance imo. In my Pbem-experience, 3.4 dramtically alters the odds in favour of the defense - if the offensive side has to face that without improvements, I fear any offensive will stall quite soon. Most of my Pbems in 3.4 ended in WWI-style. In fact, I returned to 3.2 for PbEMs for that reason.

@TPOO: Ah, thanks for the hint. I think (hope) it's the most actual version... not sure yet, as Pskov is under siege and Smolensk is expected to fall this turn. So I should know next turn.

Thanks to both of you for your kind help! I want to add, that you really need not invest your time for my game I'd just like to throw this matters into discussion, if there is the wish to improve the scenario under 3.4. I really like it - it's a very good alternative to FitE, which consumes just too much time and need a patient opponent...

(in reply to TPOO)
Post #: 10
RE: D21-Issues - 11/24/2012 9:25:41 AM   
sPzAbt653


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Rail Repair occurs with Bautrupps embarked or debarked. During an historic type campaign, Rail Repair will not catch up to the front lines until the summer of 1942. Make good use of your 'Nachschub Column' units until then.

Minsk is a city of industry, its capture will reduce Soviet production by 5%.

German replacements are ok. During Barbarossa we are all slashing and bashing so casualties will be high. Later there are long periods of low casualties so some recovery will occur. All versions were extensively playtested, including the latest for 3.4 which can be found here :

http://www.dizium.net/TOAW

Cfant2 - thanks for the comments/review and for playing.

(in reply to Cfant2)
Post #: 11
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