Company? Platoon? or Squad level?

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Company? Platoon? or Squad level?

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Company? Platoon? or Squad level? - 11/4/2012 9:34:58 AM

Rtwfreak

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How come in the game info screen it says [/quote]The game design is also historically accurate and teaches and rewards platoon and company-level combined arms tactics without overwhelming the player with rules. [/quote]

Yet, in the game Product Specs it says [/quote]Unit Scale: Squad[/quote]

So, which is it?

If it's Squad then this game is going to seem a lot like Squad Leader?

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RE: Company? Platoon? or Squad level? - 11/4/2012 12:44:06 PM

RockKahn

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The "units" (counters) are squads or individual tanks. The "battles" are platoon or company level which are made up of multiple squads/tanks.

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RE: Company? Platoon? or Squad level? - 11/4/2012 1:42:35 PM

oivind22

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I haven't played Squad Leader, but I think that is a good comparison. Conflict of Heroes is often compared to Squad Leader and other "squad level" games. They're both less complex alternatives to ASL.

RockKahn has already explained why there is no contradiction between platoon/company level tactics and individual units being squads. After all, you have several units, and several squads make up a platoon (even more squads make up a company).

< Message edited by oivind22 -- 11/4/2012 1:47:25 PM >

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RE: Company? Platoon? or Squad level? - 11/4/2012 1:58:53 PM

Wolfe

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Exactly the same scale as SL/ASL but a lot simpler (which is probably a good thing) in terms of rules than ASL.

A few SL/ASL scenarios have already had fan made conversions for the game, a good example (and also my favorite SL/ASL scenario) is Hill 621 here http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3185575

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RE: Company? Platoon? or Squad level? - 11/4/2012 9:58:07 PM

Rtwfreak

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolfe

Exactly the same scale as SL/ASL but a lot simpler (which is probably a good thing) in terms of rules than ASL.

A few SL/ASL scenarios have already had fan made conversions for the game, a good example (and also my favorite SL/ASL scenario) is Hill 621 here http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3185575

That's wonderful news. Do you think someone will do "The Factory" map and OOB?

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RE: Company? Platoon? or Squad level? - 11/11/2012 1:44:01 PM

wodin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolfe

Exactly the same scale as SL/ASL but a lot simpler (which is probably a good thing) in terms of rules than ASL.

A few SL/ASL scenarios have already had fan made conversions for the game, a good example (and also my favorite SL/ASL scenario) is Hill 621 here http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3185575

This is exactly why I feel a game like ASL would benefit far more being converted to PC than CoH.

I still haven't picked up CoH, mainly because I hated the look of the maps (but this is changing thankfully to be more like the boardgame. They should have made a 3D map and a boardgame map rather than trying to mix the two which just brought the quality down). I also have concerns about the game being abit to abstract\simple with regards to mechanics. I always think now we have PC's we should have games at squad level with as little abstraction as possible. Still when the new patch comes out I may consider picking it up.

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RE: Company? Platoon? or Squad level? - 11/11/2012 4:52:00 PM

Ratzki

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolfe

Exactly the same scale as SL/ASL but a lot simpler (which is probably a good thing) in terms of rules than ASL.

A few SL/ASL scenarios have already had fan made conversions for the game, a good example (and also my favorite SL/ASL scenario) is Hill 621 here http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3185575

This is exactly why I feel a game like ASL would benefit far more being converted to PC than CoH.
...

I would rather see the level be upped a bit to that of the Pazer Grenadier series over another squad level game.

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RE: Company? Platoon? or Squad level? - 11/11/2012 5:23:27 PM

wodin

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I prefer squad level than platoon, though if I was going for platoon it would have to be a conversion of GD'42 or any of the TCS series or the Death Ride Kursk series. I think GMT's re done Panzer series would make an excellent conversion for squad level aswell. Getting rave reviews at the moment.

I don't see that many good new squad level games to be honest..but loads of operational or grand strat. So I think there is still massive room for a good squad game. Really the last one that went into the detail i feel is needed for this scale is the Steel Panthers series and those are donkeys years old.

The only decent turn based squad Games I can think of are Steel panthers\Squad battles and now we have this..hardly overdone.

Tiller is supposed to have a platoon level series in the making..but nothing has been mentioned since it was announced two years ago. I much prefer squads and single vehicles to platoons.

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RE: Company? Platoon? or Squad level? - 11/12/2012 2:31:12 AM

Ratzki

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Don't get me wrong, I like the squad level as well, but this level has limitations. First, you are really limited to about a company size for the number of units or the game gets to be rather tedious to order all the units around. Most scenarios turn out to be larger engagements that are scaled down to squad level, so why not just play the platoon level to start with. Plus, you seem to get better tactical choices with a little higher levels as terrain can be more diverse and comes into play more then just a LOS calculation. And I find that the God type play of the squad level games really detracts from the experience. Interesting topic, where does everyone else sit on the subject?

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RE: Company? Platoon? or Squad level? - 11/12/2012 9:07:31 AM

oivind22

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

The only decent turn based squad Games I can think of are Steel panthers\Squad battles and now we have this..hardly overdone.

I don't know if WEGO-games count as turn based, but I prefer turn based over realtime because I like to have time to think, and WEGO gives me the same thing. Anyway, if you like WEGO, Combat Mission should be mentioned. I haven't really been hooked by the new Combat Mission games, maybe because of the crappy graphics, but a game like Combat Mission III was king among squad level games in it's day(IMHO). Panzer Command and Achtung Panzer are also a lot like Combat Mission, I think.

BTW, I agree with you that computer games should be less abstract. In a board game, I like simple rules, but a computer game might as well have all the rules of ASL under the hood, as long as the UI is good. I do like the combat rules in this game. They are easy to learn, quick and easy to use, an give an approximation that is good enough in most circumstances. But a computer game could have tables for hit probability, penetration probability and all that stuff, and it would be just as easy to learn the game.

Still, I hope for more implementations of favorite board games. If I had the Lock'n Load board game, I would definitely buy that computer game as well.

< Message edited by oivind22 -- 11/12/2012 9:19:33 AM >

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RE: Company? Platoon? or Squad level? - 11/12/2012 9:52:47 AM

oivind22

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ratzki

Don't get me wrong, I like the squad level as well, but this level has limitations. First, you are really limited to about a company size for the number of units or the game gets to be rather tedious to order all the units around. Most scenarios turn out to be larger engagements that are scaled down to squad level, so why not just play the platoon level to start with. Plus, you seem to get better tactical choices with a little higher levels as terrain can be more diverse and comes into play more then just a LOS calculation. And I find that the God type play of the squad level games really detracts from the experience. Interesting topic, where does everyone else sit on the subject?

I think that what draws people (at least me) to squad level games is that it's less abstract than higher levels, and it's easy to visualize the action, while at the same time having some tactical depth (flanking, etc.). Below squad level I think games tend to be about managing individual soldiers stats, using special abilities, etc. (like XCOM), although a game like Frozen Synapse is all about flanking. If I were to choose a higher level than squad level, I would rather play operational level or strategic level games, because they are more interesting to the history buff in me. It would be nice to try a game between operational level and squad level, though. I don't think I have ever played a game with platoon sized or company sized units. Maybe Memoir' 44 is supposed to be at that level, but that isn't much of a war game, IMO. Do you have any favorites to suggest?

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RE: Company? Platoon? or Squad level? - 11/12/2012 12:37:40 PM

wodin

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I enjoy company size games. Platoon I've always had an odd feeling about, the units are abit to big for no abstraction yet not big enough for lots of abstraction.

Still as I said Tiller is supposed to be releasing a new platoon scale series.

As for CM yes I love both the old series and the new. Also yes WEGO is for me and what i love most about the CM games, especially replaying the action, that wya you never miss anything. Achtung Panzer OS is an amazing game and brings in a strategic layer\campaign. My only gripe with it is it's realtime, not because it's a click fest it isn't, but because you miss alot of the action. It has a good set of pause options, but by then you've already missed the action.

I never mentioned CM or AP as they aren't ASL type squad level games. I want a great turn based or WEGO squad wargame. HPS Squad battles is so close but it has very annoying abstractions that get to me. A couple of feature changes and SB would be my all time favourite squad game that would be difficult to beat. However it needs those changes, and that isn't going to happen.

I find upto Coy level I can really get immersed. As it's easy to visualise that size of unit, more so than a unit that consists of 2000 men or more. Also the hex size I can visualise easier than when hex sizes start getting bigger than 1km.

Funny you talk of terrain yet I thin a good squad level game should give you far more terrain choices than a scale bigger. A good squad game should even include things like cellars etc. The reason the terrain isn't upto much in squad games isn't due to the scale, it's because the games still abstract the scale too much. I find it hard to see how a platoon scale game can be that much different except have more abstraction, like 5 tanks in one counter etc. Though I will admit I haven't played a platoon scale game before. I imagine platoon being much better than a squa din say WW1 when the platoon was the main fighting unit that stuck together more. Still good discussion. Oh and the myth that you couldn't do a smaller tactical game set in WW1 is just that a myth. Infact the smaller scale would be far easier than say an operational. Even the Western front could easily have many scenarios at the tactical scale. The battle of the Somme is what blinds most people and everyone thinks thats how the war was fought in every battle. Though that wasn't the case, most initial battles started well throughout WW1, it was keeping up the attack was th e problem. Only with the Somme did they walk slowly across No mans land on the first day, due to the opinion that the Kitchener troops wouldn't be able to do Army tactics and get lost, so they thought the Arty would do the job for them and the troops where best walking across in lines. Obviously this was a tragic mistake, both underestimating the new citizen armies and over estimating the power of the Arty.

< Message edited by wodin -- 11/12/2012 12:45:53 PM >

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RE: Company? Platoon? or Squad level? - 11/12/2012 8:18:57 PM

Jamm

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Tactical is the way to go for me, although I really enjoyed Empires in Arms and World in Flames on tabletop many years ago.
I find at large scales, I'm trying to figure out how many men are in a company, division, army etc and how many i've lost, that my mind's eye starts to go fuzzy. Like being a bean counter and playing with a spreadsheet. And why bother putting any terrain in a hex that is 50 miles in size, as it would be so varied in that area from one locale to another as to make the hex terrain a major abstraction.

I can actually get a feel for a firefight on a tactical scale.
I've played a lot of good ones such as the Steel Panther series, the first 3 Combat Missions and the Campaign Series ( although I think they're more platoon level.)
I also like the individual squads and vehicles playing with terrain of 50 m hexes of buildings, walls, hills, trees etc.
COH has satiated my appetite at the moment, but there is always room for more if LnL or ASL ever actually publish something for the computer.
COH uses abstractions for it's leadership but I think the CAPs system plays out pretty good.
I like the flow of the game better as both sides move and shoot almost simultaneously as opposed to one side playing a turn and then the other side playing a turn.
I think a marriage of COH and ASL would make a good union.
The flow of the game with the action point system with a few more of ASL's details.
To hit tables, more detailed combat resolution, a morale system, leader counters and weather effects would all make for a better tactical experience.
COH isn't ASL, but it has come the closest for me, for a good tactical game.

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RE: Company? Platoon? or Squad level? - 11/14/2012 6:47:42 PM

Double Deuce

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rtwfreak

Do you think someone will do "The Factory" map and OOB?

Not sure which one you are referring to. Is this one of the old, original Squad Leader scenario's, the SL-1, SL-2 and SL-3 Stalingrad series? I have SL/ASL Board #1 converted to CoH and in my files somewhere (I tend to overwrite things so I create zip files and hide them on flash drives so it may not be readily available).

< Message edited by Double Deuce -- 11/14/2012 6:49:59 PM >

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RE: Company? Platoon? or Squad level? - 11/29/2012 10:28:41 PM

Rtwfreak

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Double Deuce

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rtwfreak

Do you think someone will do "The Factory" map and OOB?

Not sure which one you are referring to. Is this one of the old, original Squad Leader scenario's, the SL-1, SL-2 and SL-3 Stalingrad series? I have SL/ASL Board #1 converted to CoH and in my files somewhere (I tend to overwrite things so I create zip files and hide them on flash drives so it may not be readily available).

Yes it was from the origional Squad Leader not ASL. I played a lot of the origional SL but not much of ASL as it got too complicated for me to enjoy. I like simple squad level games much like X-Com and now this and Silent Storm (though didn't care for the fantasy aspects of it) and even all the way back to "Computer Ambush" by SSI days. I also enjoy Combat Mission and Panzer Command now also. I'm from the K.I.S.S. base of gamers and those are the most fun wargames to me.

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