Semi-OT: Why didn't Britain and France declare war on Soviet Union in 1939 when it attacked Poland?

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

Semi-OT: Why didn't Britain and France declare war on Soviet Union in 1939 when it attacked Poland (and joined Germany in doing so)?


I have read really a lot of historic books and I own quite a large collection of them as well but I don't recall ever finding the proper explanation for the above...

Does anyone here knows something more about this issue?

Agreement of Mutual Assistance between the United Kingdom and Poland

London, August 25, 1939.

"Should one of the Contracting Parties become engaged in hostilities with a European Power in consequence of aggression by the latter against that Contracting Party, the other Contracting Party will at once give the Contracting Party engaged in hostilities all the support and assistance in its power."


Yale Law School - The Avalon Project (Documents in Law, History and Diplomacy)

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/wwii/blbk19.asp

Leo "Apollo11"

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

Semi-OT: Why didn't Britain and France declare war on Soviet Union in 1939 when it attacked Poland (and joined Germany in doing so)?


I have read really a lot of historic books and I own quite a large collection of them as well but I don't recall ever finding the proper explanation for the above...

Does anyone here knows something more about this issue?

Agreement of Mutual Assistance between the United Kingdom and Poland

London, August 25, 1939.

"Should one of the Contracting Parties become engaged in hostilities with a European Power in consequence of aggression by the latter against that Contracting Party, the other Contracting Party will at once give the Contracting Party engaged in hostilities all the support and assistance in its power."


Yale Law School - The Avalon Project (Documents in Law, History and Diplomacy)

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/wwii/blbk19.asp

Leo "Apollo11"

warspite1

Interesting question. I have never read a book that even mentions this - was this even debated by the British war cabinet?

The obvious reason of course is that Britain and France had bitten off quite enough with the declaration of war on Germany without compounding the issue, but that does not cover the "breaking" of the treaty.

Interestingly though, despite the lack of an official, or any, declaration of war on the Soviet Union, there must have been the thought in some minds that the Soviet Union was the enemy. After all, didn't Gamelin propose bombing the caucasian oil fields? [8|] and Churchill wanted to send help to the Finns during the Winter War (albeit that in the latter case, this was just a convenient cover for a plan to land in Norway to stop Iron-Ore traffic).

You've piqued my interest now Leo on what discussions the British and French had on the subject [:)]

[Mike29]

Really interesting issue, never thought about it. From formal point Soviet Union didn't declared war to Poland, but invaded to protect Belorussian and Ukrainian people from German agressor. Fro the moment of invading Poland already does not eist as independent state.



"The Polish-German War has revealed the internal bankruptcy of the Polish State. During the course of ten days' hostilities Poland has lost all her industrial areas and cultural centres. Warsaw, as the capital of Poland, no longer exists. The Polish Government has disintegrated, and no longer shows any sign of life. This means that the Polish State and its Government have, in point of fact, ceased to exist. In the same way, the Agreements concluded between the U.S.S.R. and Poland have ceased to operate. Left to her own devices and bereft of leadership, Poland has become a suitable field for all manner of hazards and surprises, which may constitute a threat to the U.S.S.R. For these reasons the Soviet Government, who has hitherto been neutral, cannot any longer preserve a neutral attitude towards these facts.

The Soviet Government also cannot view with indifference the fact that the kindred Ukrainian and White Russian people, who live on Polish territory and who are at the mercy of fate, should be left defenceless.

In these circumstances, the Soviet Government have directed the High Command of the Red Army to order troops to cross the frontier and to take under their protection the life and property of the population of Western Ukraine and Western White Russia.

At the same time the Soviet Government propose to take all measures to extricate the Polish people from the unfortunate war into which they were dragged by their unwise leaders, and enable them to live a peaceful life.

People's Commissar for Foreign Affairs of the U.S.S.R. V. Molotov[61]"

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Mike29

Really interesting issue, never thought about it. From formal point Soviet Union didn't declared war to Poland, but invaded to protect Belorussian and Ukrainian people from German agressor. Fro the moment of invading Poland already does not eist as independent state.



"The Polish-German War has revealed the internal bankruptcy of the Polish State. During the course of ten days' hostilities Poland has lost all her industrial areas and cultural centres. Warsaw, as the capital of Poland, no longer exists. The Polish Government has disintegrated, and no longer shows any sign of life. This means that the Polish State and its Government have, in point of fact, ceased to exist. In the same way, the Agreements concluded between the U.S.S.R. and Poland have ceased to operate. Left to her own devices and bereft of leadership, Poland has become a suitable field for all manner of hazards and surprises, which may constitute a threat to the U.S.S.R. For these reasons the Soviet Government, who has hitherto been neutral, cannot any longer preserve a neutral attitude towards these facts.

The Soviet Government also cannot view with indifference the fact that the kindred Ukrainian and White Russian people, who live on Polish territory and who are at the mercy of fate, should be left defenceless.

In these circumstances, the Soviet Government have directed the High Command of the Red Army to order troops to cross the frontier and to take under their protection the life and property of the population of Western Ukraine and Western White Russia.

At the same time the Soviet Government propose to take all measures to extricate the Polish people from the unfortunate war into which they were dragged by their unwise leaders, and enable them to live a peaceful life.

People's Commissar for Foreign Affairs of the U.S.S.R. V. Molotov[61]"

warspite1

HeeHeeHee... so no mention of the secret protocol you signed the previous month then Mr Molotov, agreeing to carve Poland up once the Germans had invaded? [:)]

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

German and Soviet officers shaking hands, Poland, late Sep 1939




It was all Soviet propaganda... of course it was... but Britain and France should have known better especially since they signed treaty with Poland... [;)]


In any case this come to my mind this morning - I am glad that it intrigued you guys! [:)]



Leo "Apollo11"

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

German and Soviet officers shaking hands, Poland, late Sep 1939




It was all Soviet propaganda... of course it was... but Britain and France should have known better especially since they signed treaty with Poland... [;)]


In any case this come to my mind this morning - I am glad that it intrigued you guys! [:)]



Leo "Apollo11"

warspite1

Is "should have known better" fair? I think the governments were being practical and just reacting to what was the really bad situation they now faced. Poland was beaten and, rightly or wrongly, the Anglo-French forces had done nothing - apart from the woefully pathetic Saarland offensive - to help. If no help was forthcoming to Poland in response to a German attack, there was nothing to be gained in trying to aid Poland after Russia had stabbed her in the back too - and everything to be lost in the west - by declaring war on the Soviets.

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

Semi-OT: Why didn't Britain and France declare war on Soviet Union in 1939 when it attacked Poland (and joined Germany in doing so)?

When the USSR attacked Finland a declaration of war (from France and the British Empire) was not ruled out. Minimum they wanted to send help. But the general war had not started yet. That was a local conflict.

By september 1939 it was clear that Germany was the real enemy, threatening to swallow the continent.

What did they gain if they declared war on the USSR? That would have been a gift to Germany: the two-front war would have been definitely avoided, courtesy of the western democracies [:D]

On the other hand, if they were patient, the USSR might end up on the same side, as it happened. Let's not forget the USSR and the western democracies did not share borders, so that "patience" could be afforded.

They (western democracies) also could understand that these Soviet agressive moves might be after all defensive moves. They were! Stalin was a paranoid and thought all the western democracies wanted was a war between the USSR and Germany... Therefore he wanted -and presto!- buffer zones to protect the country: Baltic, Poland, Besarabia.

The well informed elites in the west had to more or less know that. Propaganda is another story.

EDIT: my bad, the Winter War started when the general war had already started. Still, it was basically a local conflict

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Is "should have known better" fair? I think the governments were being practical and just reacting to what was the really bad situation they now faced. Poland was beaten and, rightly or wrongly, the Anglo-French forces had done nothing - apart from the woefully pathetic Saarland offensive - to help. If no help was forthcoming to Poland in response to a German attack, there was nothing to be gained in trying to aid Poland - and everything to be lost in the west - by declaring war on the Soviets.

My "should have known better" was regarding official Soviet explanation (i.e. not invasion but "help for Ukrainian and White Russian people")!


And yes... the Poland was defeated by the Germans at that time... but treaties are treaties (and politics are politics)... if the moral higher ground was to be maintained the Soviet Union should have been (and rightfully so) declared as aggressor same as Germany...


BTW, this whole issue is really interesting because Hitler always wanted to go to East only (i.e. "Lebensraum") and Western powers really didn't have anything against Hitler waging war against Stalin (their communist arch-enemy) but Poland was in-between and because of Poland there was now war in the west as well...


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S.
[EDIT]
Sighted typo fixed...

[Mike29]

ORIGINAL: warspite1
HeeHeeHee... so no mention of the secret protocol you signed the previous month then Mr Molotov, agreeing to carve Poland up once the Germans had invaded?

It's generally known, yes we signed. What we had to do? All 38 and 39 we were trying to sign anty-german defensive alliance with you, and British politics except Churchill did not wanted to cooperate with us. Read Churchill, he said because of unwise British politics of that time (Baldwin, then Chamberlain) Russian army invaided to Poland not as their friends against Germany, but occupied former Russian territory as agressor (sorry for my English, I read him on Russian).

WIKI:

"In early 1939, the Soviet Union entered into negotiations with the United Kingdom, France, Poland, and Romania to establish an alliance against Nazi Germany. The negotiations failed when the Soviet Union insisted that Poland and Romania give Soviet troops transit rights through their territory as part of a collective security agreement.[8] The failure of those negotiations led the Soviet Union to conclude the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact with Nazi Germany on 23 August; this was a non-aggression pact containing a secret protocol dividing Northern and Eastern Europe into German and Soviet spheres of influence.[9] One week after the signing of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, German forces invaded Poland from the north, south, and west. Polish forces then withdrew to the southeast where they prepared for a long defence of the Romanian Bridgehead and awaited the French and British support and relief that they were expecting. The Soviet Red Army invaded the Kresy, in accordance with the secret protocol, on 17 September.[10][Note 5] The Soviet government announced it was acting to protect the Ukrainians and Belarusians who lived in the eastern part of Poland, because the Polish state had collapsed in the face of the Nazi German attack and could no longer guarantee the security of its own citizens.[13][14][15][16] Facing a second front, the Polish government concluded that the defence of the Romanian Bridgehead was no longer feasible and ordered an emergency evacuation of all troops to neutral Romania.[1]"

[Mike29]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

German and Soviet officers shaking hands, Poland, late Sep 1939




It was all Soviet propaganda... of course it was... but Britain and France should have known better especially since they signed treaty with Poland... [;)]


In any case this come to my mind this morning - I am glad that it intrigued you guys! [:)]

Leo "Apollo11"

The simplest explanation - they were not idiots at all, Churchill was very glad and said - now Germany and SU have common board line so we have eastern front, does not matter it is silent or not at the moment.

But for my really interesting formal side, I never heard that issue have ever discussed in the British parliment.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Is "should have known better" fair? I think the governments were being practical and just reacting to what was the really bad situation they now faced. Poland was beaten and, rightly or wrongly, the Anglo-French forces had done nothing - apart from the woefully pathetic Saarland offensive - to help. If no help was forthcoming to Poland in response to a German attack, there was nothing to be gained in trying to aid Poland - and everything to be lost in the west - by declaring war on the Soviets.

My "should have known better" was regarding official Soviet explanation (i.e. not invasion but "help for Ukrainian and White Russian people")!


And yes... the Poland was defeated by the Germans at that time... but treaties are treaties (and politics are politics)... if the moral higher ground was to be maintained the Soviet Union should have been (and rightfully so) declared as aggressor same as Germany...


BTW, this whole issue is really interesting because Hitler always wanted to go to East only (i.e. "Lebensraum") and Western powers really didn't have anything against Hitler waging war against Stalin (their communist arch-enemy) but Poland was in-between and because of Poland there was now war in the west as well...


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S.
[EDIT]
Sighted typo fixed...

warspite1

Okay - my mistake [:)]

Your last paragraph raises another, even more interesting "what if" question though. The UK had spent the last 300 years ensuring that no one power had hedgemony on the continent.

Come the 20th Century there was no love of the Soviet Union anymore than there was for the Fascist dictatorships.

So. What if the Treaty of Versailles had split Poland in two - half German, half Soviet i.e. there was no Poland for the Germans to attack through to reach the USSR.

In such an instance, Hitler does not antagonise the West in Czechoslovakia, but goes straight for Stalin. What do the French and British do then?

[Mike29]

Stalin was a paranoid and thought all the western democracies wanted was a war between the USSR and Germany...

Was he? [;)]

[Mike29]

ORIGINAL: warspite1


The UK had spent the last 300 years ensuring that no one power had hedgemony on the continent.

Except British all over the world [:)] LOL

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Mike29

ORIGINAL: warspite1


The UK had spent the last 300 years ensuring that no one power had hedgemony on the continent.

Except British all over the world [:)] LOL

warspite1

Yep. That was the plan to protect our Empire. Worked too against Philip, Napoleon, the Kaiser and Hitler [:)]

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: Mike29

Stalin was a paranoid and thought all the western democracies wanted was a war between the USSR and Germany...

Was he? [;)]

In this concrete case, perhaps he wasn't paranoid at all

I remember Soviet sources saying [to use a Soviet rhetoric] that till the last moment (just before the German armored hordes crossed the Ardennes) the "French bourgeoisie was desperately hoping for a German attack on the USSR" [8D]

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

So... can we find out if this was ever:

#1
Discussed by British War Cabinet

#2
Discussed in British Parliament

#2
Discussed between British and French government



Leo "Apollo11"

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

So... can we find out if this was ever:

#1
Discussed by British War Cabinet

#2
Discussed in British Parliament

#2
Discussed between British and French government



Leo "Apollo11"

warspite1

Well this is Wiki's take on it (for what it's worth)

Allied reaction

The reaction of France and Britain to the Soviet invasion and annexation of Eastern Poland was muted, since neither country wanted a confrontation with the Soviet Union at that time.[85][86] Under the terms of the Polish-British Common Defence Pact of 25 August 1939, the British had promised assistance if a European power attacked Poland.[Note 8] A secret protocol of the pact, however, specified that the European power referred to Germany.[88] When Polish Ambassador Edward Raczyñski reminded Foreign Secretary Edward Frederick Lindley Wood of the pact, he was bluntly told that it was Britain's business whether to declare war on the Soviet Union.[85] British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain considered making a public commitment to restore the Polish state but in the end issued only general condemnations.[85] This stance represented Britain's attempt at balance: its security interests included trade with the Soviets that would support its war effort and the possibility of a future Anglo-Soviet alliance against Germany.[88] Public opinion in Britain was divided between expressions of outrage at the invasion and a perception that Soviet claims to the region were reasonable.[88]

While the French had made promises to Poland, including the provision of air support, these were not honoured. A Franco-Polish Military Alliance was signed in 1921 and amended thereafter. The agreements were not strongly supported by the French military leadership, though; the relationship deteriorated during the 1920s and 1930s.[89] In the French view, the German-Soviet alliance was fragile and overt denunciation of, or action against, the Soviets would not serve either France's or Poland's best interests.[86] Once the Soviets moved into Poland, the French and the British decided there was nothing they could do for Poland in the short term and began planning for a long-term victory instead. The French had advanced tentatively into the Saar region in early September, but after the Polish defeat they retreated behind the Maginot Line on 4 October.[90] On 1 October 1939, Winston Churchill—via the radio—stated:

... That the Russian armies should stand on this line was clearly necessary for the safety of Russia against the Nazi menace. At any rate, the line is there, and an Eastern front has been created which Nazi Germany does not dare assail. When Herr von Ribbentrop was summoned to Moscow last week it was to learn the fact, and to accept the fact, that the Nazi designs upon the Baltic States and upon the Ukraine must come to a dead stop.[91]

[TulliusDetritus]

Wait wait wait... I ignored perhaps the most important part [8D]

"We could have wished that the Russian armies should be standing on their present line [october, occupying the eastern part of Poland] as the friends and allies of Poland instead of as invaders. But that the Russian armies should stand on this line was clearly necessary for the safety of Russia against the Nazi menace."

Oh oh... so after all Churchill (aka British elites) knew the Soviets wanted to fortify their position swallowing some buffer states...

EDIT: I did a messy thing. I wanted to post a new message but edited this one instead. I annihilated Churchill's broadcast that is [:D] Oh well, this part says it all.

[TulliusDetritus]

And after this broadcast...

"The Prime Minister was in full agreement. 'I take the same view as Winston,' he said, in a letter to his sister, 'to whose excellent broadcast we have just been listening. I believe Russia will always act as she thinks her own interests demand [aka, again they avoid the act of war thing], and I cannot believe she would think her interests served by a German victory followed by a German domination of Europe [aka they will necessarily oppose them]"

Source, Churchill's memoirs, vol 1 The Gathering Storm

[Klydon]

Nice topic Leo. Will have to give it some thought for sure. [:)]

My early response would be that the Allies had already declared war on Germany before Russia moved in. I don't know that it would have made a lot of sense to immediately make peace with Germany and then everyone declare war on Russia. I also don't think any of the three (Germany, France, and Britain) were ready for a show down with Russia in 1939. All three, especially Germany, would be far stronger 9 months later when the campaign in the west opened. The other issue that would have remained would have been the question of a independant Polish state.