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First winter German strategy

 
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First winter German strategy - 11/2/2012 12:05:01 PM   
STEF78


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From: Versailles, France
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Hello

I am currently playing 2 PBEM as german. One of them against Dudu is shown with an AAR.

I've read and learn a lot from other AAR but, as I'm not skilled enough to sweep the russians in 1941, so I will face in a couple of week my first "blizzard" winter against a human.

Not sure about my strategy at this time. Surely not fleeing back to Poland, it's not my spirit. But a stubborn defence defence prepared with entrenchement level 3 be an issue? It works against the AI..

Or is it better to give ground, and resist on a prepared line (how many hexes in the back)?

Is it a good idea to divide the mountain div into brigades?

How do I organise the rotation of the units on the front line?

Thak you for your advices.
Post #: 1
RE: First winter German strategy - 11/2/2012 12:47:49 PM   
76mm


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Joined: 5/2/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: STEF78
But a stubborn defence defence prepared with entrenchement level 3 be an issue? It works against the AI..


I'll let some of the German players comment, but I think that this approach is recognized as being suicidal.

(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 2
RE: First winter German strategy - 11/2/2012 1:29:52 PM   
rrbill

 

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Understand that Soviets will beat the Axis bloody all through the winter season, no matter what the Axis strategy. Prepare a well organized defense (HQ assignments & locations,) employ sacrificial delay units (inf regiments & Romanians) to slow the Soviets, give ground only when Soviets earn it. Protect HQs & key mobile forces. Hitler's stille stand order wasn't all that bad because frontline commanders often managed to survive. If front is abandoned then Axis attrition losses going back and then later going forward will be significant.

(But then, I'm only experienced with AI. Hmmm... someday I'll try PBEM.)

< Message edited by rrbill -- 11/2/2012 1:31:06 PM >

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 3
RE: First winter German strategy - 11/2/2012 2:11:20 PM   
Pelton

 

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Ignore my Poland blizzard game with MT as it is something I have wanted to try for a long time.
Its also a good test of game balance and can put to rest the statergy for better or worse. I am going on 25+ games and I like to try out diffenent things from time to time.

Most of the veteran GHC players, pull out panzer units and winter them in citys close to the front.

1.I personally leave most of 1st PG in the area from Orel south as this is the area SHC can get the easyist pockets.
2. I winter my 9 highest infantry to use as a core to bust a hole in the 42 fort belts.
3. I then winter as many panzer units as I can near the front. To be called up as needed.
4. send as many pioneers as possible back to OKH for refitting over the winter.
5. Retreat the front lines 1 to 2 hexes a turn starting the last turn of snow Tula south, as this area is easly taken back in spring and summer.

Its only possible I have found to hold the lines if you have KIAed more then 4 million russians during the summer and fall.

At some point in January or the 1st week of February I hold the line depending on how good the SHC is doing and this generally has more to do with how many russians you have KIA during the summer and fall.

Hope that helps.

_____________________________

GHC
23 - 4 - 8

16 games ended in 41 (16-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to rrbill)
Post #: 4
RE: First winter German strategy - 11/2/2012 2:33:03 PM   
STEF78


Posts: 882
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From: Versailles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm


quote:

ORIGINAL: STEF78
But a stubborn defence defence prepared with entrenchement level 3 be an issue? It works against the AI..


I'll let some of the German players comment, but I think that this approach is recognized as being suicidal.

So exit this solution
Thanks

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 5
RE: First winter German strategy - 11/2/2012 2:35:51 PM   
STEF78


Posts: 882
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rrbill

Understand that Soviets will beat the Axis bloody all through the winter season, no matter what the Axis strategy. Prepare a well organized defense (HQ assignments & locations,) employ sacrificial delay units (inf regiments & Romanians) to slow the Soviets, give ground only when Soviets earn it. Protect HQs & key mobile forces. Hitler's stille stand order wasn't all that bad because frontline commanders often managed to survive. If front is abandoned then Axis attrition losses going back and then later going forward will be significant.

(But then, I'm only experienced with AI. Hmmm... someday I'll try PBEM.)

I don't like sacrifying units, but using them to get a delay can be a solution. In fact my real concern is about human intelligence. Ai is so stupid...

(in reply to rrbill)
Post #: 6
RE: First winter German strategy - 11/2/2012 2:49:41 PM   
STEF78


Posts: 882
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Most of the veteran GHC players, pull out panzer units and winter them in citys close to the front.

1.I personally leave most of 1st PG in the area from Orel south as this is the area SHC can get the easyist pockets.
2. I winter my 9 highest infantry to use as a core to bust a hole in the 42 fort belts.
3. I then winter as many panzer units as I can near the front. To be called up as needed.
4. send as many pioneers as possible back to OKH for refitting over the winter.
5. Retreat the front lines 1 to 2 hexes a turn starting the last turn of snow Tula south, as this area is easly taken back in spring and summer.

Its only possible I have found to hold the lines if you have KIAed more then 4 million russians during the summer and fall.

At some point in January or the 1st week of February I hold the line depending on how good the SHC is doing and this generally has more to do with how many russians you have KIA during the summer and fall.

Hope that helps.

Ok for Pzd in cities. Do you use them in "reserve" mode?

Well noticed that the main action will take place in the south. Do I be confident in level 3 entenched INF in the Valdaï hills/forest north?

3 - Ok to display the Pzd along the front line. In summer, a Pzd can sweep easily a stack of russian INF, how is it in blizzard? I don't want to burn my units.

4 - Ok for the pioneers

5 - The blizzard last 12 turns. Do I really need to fall bak 24 hexes, or perhaps 2 each turn during the 4 first for example and then 1 each turn later? (of course depending on the aggressivity of the soviet player)

And what about creating a fort line? And how to optimize your mountain INF?

Thanks for your reply, it will help!

_____________________________

GHC 4-0-2
SHC 3-0-1

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 7
RE: First winter German strategy - 11/2/2012 3:54:48 PM   
gingerbread


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If the Soviets push hard with large forces, you want to fall back. The longer supply lines will wreck the Soviet vehicle pool and this plays into Axis hands during '42 at least, probably a bit into '43 as well.

(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 8
RE: First winter German strategy - 11/2/2012 4:18:56 PM   
STEF78


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From: Versailles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

If the Soviets push hard with large forces, you want to fall back. The longer supply lines will wreck the Soviet vehicle pool and this plays into Axis hands during '42 at least, probably a bit into '43 as well.

Thanks for the answer

How can I know the level of soviet vehicule pool? (and is it possible?)

What would be a reasonable number of hexes between the railhead and the frontline in order to feel relatively secure?

(in reply to gingerbread)
Post #: 9
RE: First winter German strategy - 11/2/2012 5:29:56 PM   
terje439


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quote:

ORIGINAL: STEF78

I don't like sacrifying units


Then you will lose even more of them tbh.
If/when a unit gets cut off, you should sacrifice it imo, as trying to stand and extract it is likely to cost more units in the long run. It is imperative to realize when a unit is doomed and not worry about it.
Atleast that is my experience.



Terje

_____________________________

"Hun skal torpederes!" - Birger Eriksen

("She is to be torpedoed!")

(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 10
RE: First winter German strategy - 11/2/2012 7:42:49 PM   
gingerbread


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Distance to railhead is not about being secure, it's about making the Soviets pay a high cost. They will get enough supply to attack, if they can reach the defenders. When in doubt, retreat another hex - ground can be re-taken, dead soldiers are not revived.

Vehicle losses are listed in the losses screen, scroll down to see the Soviet total (when playing the Axis).
Lost means removed from the game, so it does not include those captured by the Axis.


(in reply to terje439)
Post #: 11
RE: First winter German strategy - 11/4/2012 5:37:46 PM   
Disgruntled Veteran


Posts: 540
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It really depends on the nature of your front.

- If you've taken Leningrad then the Finns can come down and will easily hold the line wherever they go.

- The CV malus is staggered throughout the Blizzard. In December you really need to fall back about 2hexes a turn. Your CV is garbage and a good SHC player will slip cavalry behind a flank and start trapping units. Dont give them the chance. In January you should be able to hold wherever you have mtn units or good terrain. In February you shouldn't have to fall back at all unless you've lost a lot of units.

- I don't like speed bumps or sacrificial units. These build Soviet morale and is a worthless loss of troops.

- Plan your winter line long before December. Use forts and allied troops to start digging a winter position at least 8-10 hexes behind the front. It takes some practice really.

(in reply to gingerbread)
Post #: 12
RE: First winter German strategy - 11/4/2012 11:04:56 PM   
STEF78


Posts: 882
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: terje439


quote:

ORIGINAL: STEF78

I don't like sacrifying units


Then you will lose even more of them tbh.
If/when a unit gets cut off, you should sacrifice it imo, as trying to stand and extract it is likely to cost more units in the long run. It is imperative to realize when a unit is doomed and not worry about it.
Atleast that is my experience.



Terje

I agree when a unit is doomed, but I'm reluctant to sacrify a unit, expect in urgency case, and as we can "predict" the weather in december 1941, I will try to save my units.

(in reply to terje439)
Post #: 13
RE: First winter German strategy - 11/4/2012 11:09:19 PM   
STEF78


Posts: 882
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Disgruntled Veteran

It really depends on the nature of your front.

- If you've taken Leningrad then the Finns can come down and will easily hold the line wherever they go.

- The CV malus is staggered throughout the Blizzard. In December you really need to fall back about 2hexes a turn. Your CV is garbage and a good SHC player will slip cavalry behind a flank and start trapping units. Dont give them the chance. In January you should be able to hold wherever you have mtn units or good terrain. In February you shouldn't have to fall back at all unless you've lost a lot of units.

- I don't like speed bumps or sacrificial units. These build Soviet morale and is a worthless loss of troops.

- Plan your winter line long before December. Use forts and allied troops to start digging a winter position at least 8-10 hexes behind the front. It takes some practice really.

I'm confident that I will be able to take Leningrad, so ok for the finns to go south and hold their line

I didn't notice that the effects of blizzard were different in December, January and February. I will look back at the manual...

ok 8-10 hexes behind, I will prepare a line

Thanks

(in reply to Disgruntled Veteran)
Post #: 14
RE: First winter German strategy - 11/5/2012 5:38:48 AM   
delatbabel


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From: Sydney, Australia
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Comment from a not-particularly-veteran Soviet player here.

Do not put your panzers where I can see them, especially in moderate to low entrenchment hexes and/or with moderate to low entrenchment levels behind them (retreat path). I always go ape when I see panzers in the first winter, and will hit them with everything I have. They take massive losses, and the further losses from attrition from being pushed out of their entrenchments compounds the issue. A retreating panzer in December 41 is often a dead panzer.

Hitting German panzers and grinding them down in winter 41 is the best way I've found of blunting the German summer 42 offensive. It doesn't stop it dead but it makes it much harder for the Germans to pull off any encirclements.

_____________________________

--
Del

(in reply to STEF78)
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