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RE: Distant Worlds: Shadows

 
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RE: Distant Worlds: Shadows - 11/30/2012 11:39:33 PM   
Shuul

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz


Am I missing something?


Creating a new class will give us the possibility to tell AI how to use this ship and how to fit/design it. Its not about players (maybe just for comfort), its for AI.

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RE: Distant Worlds: Shadows - 12/1/2012 2:39:34 AM   
Kayoz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shuul

Creating a new class will give us the possibility to tell AI how to use this ship and how to fit/design it. Its not about players (maybe just for comfort), its for AI.


Aah, good point - hadn't thought of that!

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RE: Distant Worlds: Shadows - 12/1/2012 3:56:40 AM   
MartialDoctor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OJsDad

Also, are we ever going to see fleet formations so battles are not such a furball?



+1

I really would like to see such a feature as well.

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Post #: 243
RE: Distant Worlds: Shadows - 12/1/2012 5:15:46 AM   
tjhkkr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkspire
quote:

ORIGINAL: tjhkkr
Here is a question for Erik... any new ship types?


Didnt think there were ship types in DW? There design classes, each design has an AI role assigned to it?
Would be better that if we could add a design class and with a second drop down list assign one of the AI roles to that class, for example, adding heavy escort and then assigning the escort AI role to that new design class.
Darkspire


One of the last go arounds, dedicated carriers were added to the list of ship types.
So, I was just curious if there would be others... :)

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RE: Distant Worlds: Shadows - 12/1/2012 9:55:00 AM   
Gareth_Bryne


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Kayoz, Shuul:

Yes, for the sake of AI it should be similar to Resupply Ships, Carriers and Troop Transports. In essence, the Interdictor must be based on a Cruiser primary design, but have the Interdiction Device, which might branch away from Capital\Spacesport Hyperjammers, a huge power reserve, no armor (field interference) and limited shields. A glass vase if you will, with default orders to sit back and relax, and NOT run away, unless the shields are almost down

< Message edited by Gareth_Bryne -- 12/1/2012 9:56:32 AM >


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Post #: 245
RE: Distant Worlds: Shadows - 12/2/2012 5:13:43 PM   
Igard


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I'm liking this talk of a new "Interdictor" class.

Also of formations. Right now, we have the "Zerg" formation. It's not the best.

+1 of both these points.

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RE: Distant Worlds: Shadows - 12/3/2012 12:54:22 PM   
Beag

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MartialDoctor


quote:

ORIGINAL: OJsDad

Also, are we ever going to see fleet formations so battles are not such a furball?



+1

I really would like to see such a feature as well.


I think we all do but wanting and implementing it aren´t quite the same. The problem is simple, how to handle range? With rigid formations, there ought to be ships out of range while the blob chews the other fleet piece by piece.

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RE: Distant Worlds: Shadows - 12/4/2012 2:58:00 AM   
OJsDad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Beag


quote:

ORIGINAL: MartialDoctor


quote:

ORIGINAL: OJsDad

Also, are we ever going to see fleet formations so battles are not such a furball?



+1

I really would like to see such a feature as well.


I think we all do but wanting and implementing it aren´t quite the same. The problem is simple, how to handle range? With rigid formations, there ought to be ships out of range while the blob chews the other fleet piece by piece.


Are you talking about weapons range in battle. Not sure I understand why it would be a problem, as there are weapon ranges now.

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RE: Distant Worlds: Shadows - 12/4/2012 3:44:48 AM   
Cruis.In

 

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ships just seem to all furball in. warp on top and blam blam blam.

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Post #: 249
RE: Distant Worlds: Shadows - 12/4/2012 6:22:18 AM   
Haree78


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OJsDad
Are you talking about weapons range in battle. Not sure I understand why it would be a problem, as there are weapon ranges now.


Do you not see how fleet formations in combat in Distant Worlds would be a problem?
Formations are meant to make a fighting unit more effective. How can it be effective for units to rigidly keep themselves out of range to stay in formation, to make the enemy concentrate on one of your ships at a time because he is the one that is in range to all of them first?
What happens to the formation when someone needs to flee?

Formations would add nothing to the game. They may look pretty when they are patrolling or something but in combat they would look stupid and I would be tearing my hair out at ships not shooting back to stay in formation.

Take a unit maintaining a formation in Distant Worlds against a unit free of formation with each side doing the same amount of focus fire and the unit without formation would win. They get more focus fire all of the time and all ships keep themselves in optimal range.

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Post #: 250
RE: Distant Worlds: Shadows - 12/4/2012 8:19:41 AM   
Bingeling

 

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As Haree says. The ship sizes in this game are giant compared to ship ranges. Anything more than a 2 ship fleet would end up in situations where only one ship can fire unless the enemy is friendly enough to move in between them.

The main problem in some situations is how to get them to furball enough...

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RE: Distant Worlds: Shadows - 12/4/2012 12:16:00 PM   
Beag

 

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Yeah, through I hope to see a more tactical game, the current model simply doesn´t allow it. It will be something for DW 2 (which I hope will have turn based strategy and real time battles - by not having to bother with planets while you fight, it would finally allow for a decent and separate tactical mode).

And before anyone says "but how would those thousands of little fights versus pirate escorts etc be handled?" the answer is very simple - auto-resolve. Just like in Total War.

< Message edited by Beag -- 12/4/2012 12:38:47 PM >

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RE: Distant Worlds: Shadows - 12/4/2012 6:58:24 PM   
Ralzakark


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

As Haree says. The ship sizes in this game are giant compared to ship ranges. Anything more than a 2 ship fleet would end up in situations where only one ship can fire unless the enemy is friendly enough to move in between them.


I've never thought that the ship images had any significance, being just for display, and that each ship is represented by a point which sends and receives fire. I don't think a friendly ship blocks fire in any way.

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RE: Distant Worlds: Shadows - 12/4/2012 7:22:30 PM   
ASHBERY76


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I would like to see an option for fleets to arrive at a destination at the same time.The fleets ships arriving in dribs and drabs can ruin plans.

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Post #: 254
RE: Distant Worlds: Shadows - 12/4/2012 7:30:03 PM   
Gareth_Bryne


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That, sir, would require a separate military research branch or an admiral ability. Read David Weber's "'onor 'arrington" series for information on space fleet battle coordination problems. Besides, fleet arrival is usually pretty close together already.

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RE: Distant Worlds: Shadows - 12/4/2012 7:46:58 PM   
ASHBERY76


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gareth_Bryne

That, sir, would require a separate military research branch or an admiral ability. Read David Weber's "'onor 'arrington" series for information on space fleet battle coordination problems. Besides, fleet arrival is usually pretty close together already.


David Weber's overated sci fi book series is basically napoleonic war era ships in space so not a good example,and gameplay.

Advanced ships you acquire during the game will arrive way ahead and becomes annoying to micro managing them to make some parity.

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RE: Distant Worlds: Shadows - 12/4/2012 8:05:10 PM   
Bingeling

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ralzakark


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

As Haree says. The ship sizes in this game are giant compared to ship ranges. Anything more than a 2 ship fleet would end up in situations where only one ship can fire unless the enemy is friendly enough to move in between them.


I've never thought that the ship images had any significance, being just for display, and that each ship is represented by a point which sends and receives fire. I don't think a friendly ship blocks fire in any way.

It won't block anything.

But Imagine. Random numbers incoming.

Ship size is 50.
Weapon range is 200.

There is need for some room between the ships, so if ships are a point, the distance needs to be quite a bit more than 50 to show a formation.

By the time the aggressor meets the front ship, only 2-3 ships behind can fire at it. It would make all kinds of messy combats with formations lining up, unless they run across each other, which would again make a furball.


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RE: Distant Worlds: Shadows - 12/4/2012 8:09:53 PM   
Bingeling

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gareth_Bryne

That, sir, would require a separate military research branch or an admiral ability. Read David Weber's "'onor 'arrington" series for information on space fleet battle coordination problems. Besides, fleet arrival is usually pretty close together already.

The books are fun, but if you want to play ship of the line combat, the Napoleonic era is a better choice as said above. It is a silly setting solution to force some fleet tactics into a 3d world by making the ships behave like they are 2d.

Scale is poor in the game, with resupply ships the size of planets (or not too far off). Real tactical combat in a system would probably involve using planetary objects to gain or deny position. Which seems a tad beyond the scope of the game.

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RE: Distant Worlds: Shadows - 12/5/2012 4:00:40 AM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Igard

I'm liking this talk of a new "Interdictor" class.

Also of formations. Right now, we have the "Zerg" formation. It's not the best.

+1 of both these points.


What do you mean the 'Zerg' formation isn't the best?!?!?!?!?

Haven't you heard, "If brute force doesn't get the job done, your aren't using enough!"

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Post #: 259
RE: Distant Worlds: Shadows - 12/5/2012 4:10:09 AM   
Igard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7


quote:

ORIGINAL: Igard

I'm liking this talk of a new "Interdictor" class.

Also of formations. Right now, we have the "Zerg" formation. It's not the best.

+1 of both these points.


What do you mean the 'Zerg' formation isn't the best?!?!?!?!?

Haven't you heard, "If brute force doesn't get the job done, your aren't using enough!"





All true. But of course seriously, we wouldn't have to use as much force if we could make more precise attacks.

I just hate when my Flagship bearing Jean-Luc Picard and Worf, fly in at the vanguard of my 30+ ship fleet. Only to get pounded into oblivion before the rest of the fleet gets there.

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RE: Distant Worlds: Shadows - 12/5/2012 5:58:02 AM   
tjhkkr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7
Haven't you heard, "If brute force doesn't get the job done, your aren't using enough!"


Truer words have never been spoken... wait... yes they have...
Stalin/Zuhkov 1943...


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RE: Distant Worlds: Shadows - 12/5/2012 3:55:16 PM   
Gareth_Bryne


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To ASHBERY76:
quote:

David Weber's overated sci fi book series is basically napoleonic war era ships in space so not a good example,and gameplay.

Advanced ships you acquire during the game will arrive way ahead and becomes annoying to micro managing them to make some parity.


The example from the series does apply to our discussion. If you use their mode of propulsion or Star Trek warp propulsion, here and there is a logistical problem of ship movement coordination, achieving minimum and effective firing range for weapon systems, and revectoring towards new threats or retreats.

The problem isn't only in the advanced ships. After arrival smaller and faster ships move in and get killed first. If we speak about formation tactics, then the heavies should engage first, while the E's,F's and D's provide fire support and point defence saturation. Weber's Napoleonic wall of battle taken in 3D space and the modern carrier bubble are the two probable options.

Speaking simply, three linked solutions for for fleet transit come to mind: 1), force fleet speed to the slowest ship speed; 2), force fleet to hold formation in transit with fixed distance between each ship; and 3), from Weber, Star Trek and Star Wars, have faster ships tractor the slower along with them.

P.S. Offtopic, what's with your opinion of David Weber? Just curious...

To Bingeling:
quote:

The books are fun, but if you want to play ship of the line combat, the Napoleonic era is a better choice as said above. It is a silly setting solution to force some fleet tactics into a 3d world by making the ships behave like they are 2d.

Scale is poor in the game, with resupply ships the size of planets (or not too far off). Real tactical combat in a system would probably involve using planetary objects to gain or deny position. Which seems a tad beyond the scope of the game.


Contrary to both your statements, I'm not focusing on the "line-of-battle" of the Napoleonic era and, what's more, playing it. I've understood ASHBERY76's vision of the problem as the need to achieve simultaneous arrival \\ simultaneous assault by all the ships of a fleet. Therefore I've offered Weber's examples, because, let's face it, there are not (and for some time won't be) any space fleet tactics at all, except in fiction. However, when that time comes, they will definitely grow out of existing fleet and air combat tactics and strategy. Regeneration of ideas. So there can be no forcing of tactics, and my opinion is not sillier than all of our "serious discussion" about a 4X science fiction game .

That being said, I definitely agree about the the problems of scope and scale, and the influence of planetary gravity on tactics. So here's another question for Eric - if we're getting Gravitical Weaponry, can anything be done to emulate planetary gravity?

< Message edited by Gareth_Bryne -- 12/5/2012 3:56:49 PM >


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RE: Distant Worlds: Shadows - 12/5/2012 6:26:47 PM   
Bingeling

 

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I think it is easy enough to organize fleets so that the desired furball effect is reached. To gather multiple fleets, use a staging area. It will work quite well as long as all ships have the same jump time.

For default attack jumps, the fleet circles the target. This works well apart from very strongly defended colonies (and legendary pirate bases).

To assault strong defense base setups, I go full manual mode, and jump to another point in the system, with very passive fleet stance. I allow the ships to gather, and move them in on normal engine power to hit one base alone. Furball in action :)

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RE: Distant Worlds: Shadows - 12/6/2012 4:25:55 AM   
Darkspire


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I found the easiest way for me is just fit my ships out with different warp drives when I need to take a planet after ive sent a fleet in to 'clean' the system. That way I can have a fleet arrive in the order I want, heavy shield gunships first than can absorb fire and draw the defence fleet away from the planet while the troop ships of the fleet arrive a few seconds later and make there way to the planet usually without getting hit.

Darkspire

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RE: Distant Worlds: Shadows - 12/6/2012 8:49:52 AM   
Bingeling

 

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My troop transports wait until fighting stops to make their entrance. I run them in separate fleets. Apart from them, most other ships are OK by being shot by defenders, apart form carriers that usually have the sense to keep somewhat clear (but they are not very good at it).

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RE: Distant Worlds: Shadows - 12/6/2012 3:34:47 PM   
Shark7


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I solved my 'formation' problems by simply not using frigates and escorts in assault fleets. My fleets consist of destroyers, cruisers and capitals which are generally capable of absorbing quite a bit of damage. I do use frigates and escorts, and put them in their own fleets, but there are tied to systems with limited engage ranges to act as patrol and defense, not main assault units.

This system is working well for my playstyle.

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RE: Distant Worlds: Shadows - 12/6/2012 3:39:53 PM   
tjhkkr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7
I solved my 'formation' problems by simply not using frigates and escorts in assault fleets. My fleets consist of destroyers, cruisers and capitals which are generally capable of absorbing quite a bit of damage. I do use frigates and escorts, and put them in their own fleets, but there are tied to systems with limited engage ranges to act as patrol and defense, not main assault units. This system is working well for my playstyle.


That is how I do it myself. I never dealt with it as far as battle was concerned... I just always found the fuel situation was such that they tied the fleet down.


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RE: Distant Worlds: Shadows - 12/6/2012 8:51:42 PM   
Hawawaa


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Any new secrets you want to tell us?

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RE: Distant Worlds: Shadows - 12/7/2012 12:24:26 AM   
Bingeling

 

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I have never seen the need to run many ship types in fleets.

I have destroyer fleets, and main battle fleets of cruisers, capitals and carriers. And invasion fleets of transports and maybe a fleet leader of sorts.

Why anyone would want to involve an escort in any task is beyond me. Unless designed as something totally different than the AI version, of course. The frigates are not bad as automated ships once filthy rich and generally bored of things.



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RE: Distant Worlds: Shadows - 12/7/2012 12:41:27 AM   
Igard


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For me it's all just a role play thing. I want to recreate battles like I saw at Endor, or at the battle of Chin'toka :- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg_6eeJ5eVc

I used to go all capitals and cruisers, but it's a bit boring to look at. With formations, it would give us a purpose for the frigates. Let them be the ones to go in first. I don't want a scratch on my new shiny Capital ship!

I always use staging areas of course. Just outside the enemy sensor range. However, with formations I would no longer have to do that. At least that's my hope anyway.

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