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B-24 Reinforcements entering at Aden?

 
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B-24 Reinforcements entering at Aden? - 10/27/2012 12:24:14 AM   
Capt Cliff


Posts: 1586
Joined: 5/22/2002
From: Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		When B-24 squadrons enter at Aden the only way to transfer them is by ship to Abadan (13 days), or by TF. The air mile distance from Aden to Karachi is 1600 miles and the B-24 has a 2100 mile range. So why can't I fly directly to Karachi or have the B-24's enter at Karachi? Yes I know I can change the scenario but I should be able to fly to Karachi from Aden. This applies to the Wellingtons too, with a range of 2550 miles. My guess is that the off board areas are not set up to transfer aircraft except by ship.

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RE: B-24 Reinforcements entering at Aden? - 10/27/2012 12:42:44 AM   
wdolson

 

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From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		That's basically the problem. The off map areas work by a very different mechanism than on map.

Bill

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RE: B-24 Reinforcements entering at Aden? - 10/27/2012 12:44:03 AM   
michaelm


Posts: 8198
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		That seems to be correct. The code that would allow this has a comment "// movement from on map to off map base not allowed 10/11/2007"
Movement between off-map bases is allowed by placing the group in reinforcement queue for several days.

Offmap movement is around TFs.

< Message edited by michaelm -- 11/3/2012 10:08:14 PM >

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RE: B-24 Reinforcements entering at Aden? - 10/27/2012 1:52:59 PM   
dr.hal


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Status: offline 		But it certainly was a good question! Thanks Cliff for thinking of it...

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RE: B-24 Reinforcements entering at Aden? - 11/3/2012 8:47:21 PM   
Capt Cliff


Posts: 1586
Joined: 5/22/2002
From: Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		Addendum; My B-24's showed up in Adaban and they could not be flown to Karachi, so I had to load them on ship!! Bleh! If and when I start this scenario over I'll see if I can change where these long range bombers enter as reinforcements. Can I? All SEAC long range bombers should appear at Karachi. FYI!!!

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RE: B-24 Reinforcements entering at Aden? - 11/4/2012 12:31:23 AM   
wdolson

 

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Status: offline 		You will have to make a custom scenario from one of the standard scenarios or edit the mod you are playing, but it's an easy fix with the editor.

Bill

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RE: B-24 Reinforcements entering at Aden? - 11/15/2012 5:21:33 AM   
Commander Cody


Posts: 675
Joined: 7/4/2003
From: Seoul, Korea
Status: offline 		I'm no developer, but perhaps they considered this and put aircraft reinforcements in Aden allowing for a week (or however long it is) to get to Karachi?

Cheers,
CC

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RE: B-24 Reinforcements entering at Aden? - 11/15/2012 3:31:46 PM   
crsutton


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Status: offline 		Or, just load them on ships and send them to Karachi like we have been doing all along. It is not such a big deal.

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RE: B-24 Reinforcements entering at Aden? - 11/15/2012 4:49:15 PM   
Capt Cliff


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Or, just load them on ships and send them to Karachi like we have been doing all along. It is not such a big deal.


Historically they flew the long range bombers into Karachi. This is a historical simulation, right? The simplest fix is to have them all arrive as reinforcements at Karachi.

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RE: B-24 Reinforcements entering at Aden? - 11/15/2012 5:01:10 PM   
Lecivius


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From: Denver
Status: offline 		It's not a historical simulation, it's a game built on historical data. That needs to be kept in perspective.

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RE: B-24 Reinforcements entering at Aden? - 11/15/2012 5:29:58 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Or, just load them on ships and send them to Karachi like we have been doing all along. It is not such a big deal.


Historically they flew the long range bombers into Karachi. This is a historical simulation, right? The simplest fix is to have them all arrive as reinforcements at Karachi.


Well, the SIMPLEST option would be to have any and all entrering units, air, sea, and land, poof into their final tactical destinations. Why stop at Karachi?

I'm with crsutton. The game is largely about logistics. Aden ought to have a lot of ships in residence in your era. Load them up and move them out.

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RE: B-24 Reinforcements entering at Aden? - 11/15/2012 8:38:47 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 3257
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		The following old thread provides all the answers.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2139720&mpage=1&key=map%2Carrivals

The key and relevant posts in that thread are:

(1) Post #2 from Terminus
(2) Post #16 from Andy Mac
(3) Post #20 from Andy Mac
(4) Post #83 from Andrew Brown
(5) Post #120 from JWE

You should read the original posts (plus others which I have not specifically mentioned), but in summary the key points are:


  • it was a most conscious dev decision to not allow air units to fly from an off map base to an on map base
  • again it was a most conscious dev decision to slow down the pace of the game by forcing the Allied player to prioritise the use of his shipping to logistics or frontline operations
  • the devs considered having units arrive off map for AE rather than the classical WITP "magical teleportation" to be a much better solution both for game play and historical consistency reasons


Above michaelm noted that the code has a specific comment to not allow flying in from off map to on map. The thread I provide above does not specifically identify who made that decision but the prime suspects are JWE, Don Bowen and Andrew Brown, all of whom gave great thought to how the off map bases should function and how to avoid the new from being "gamed".

Andy Mac was quite adament that if a player made their own mod where all the off map arriving units were instead arriving at an on map base, then 40% of Allied shipping should also be completely removed in order to maintain balance.

On many occasions it was pointed out that units basically arrive where they did historically. Specifically, with regard to American air units sent to the CBI, they were ferried from USA >- Africa >- Middle East >- India. Historically this ferrying took place "off map" and is therefore also done in AE "off map". The fact that the last leg happened to be to a game on map base does not invalidate the fundamental nature of it being an off map ferrying process. Plus as it is handled in the game is also consistent with how other units which arrive off map but which historically were ultimately moved to other bases in the Pacific/Australia/New Zealand.

The bottom line is that it would not be a "simple fix" to have the 4E units which arrive in Aden to instead arrive in Karachi.

Alfred

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RE: B-24 Reinforcements entering at Aden? - 11/18/2012 11:33:56 PM   
General Patton

 

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Status: offline 		A bomber or fighter group can fly from the East coast USA base to west coast bases in 2 days. hmmm

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RE: B-24 Reinforcements entering at Aden? - 11/18/2012 11:37:04 PM   
witpqs

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: General Patton

A bomber or fighter group can fly from the East coast USA base to west coast bases in 2 days. hmmm

No, that's movement by railroad.

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RE: B-24 Reinforcements entering at Aden? - 11/18/2012 11:46:29 PM   
General Patton

 

Posts: 122
Joined: 1/23/2010
From: Mass. USA
Status: offline 		Maybe im just nit picking but a LCU leaving from East coast moves by rail and takes 7+ days. and why is the air unit availible to fly after it gets to say san fran in only 2 days of rail travel?

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RE: B-24 Reinforcements entering at Aden? - 11/19/2012 5:22:54 AM   
crsutton


Posts: 6190
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From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Yeah, you are just nitpicking....

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RE: B-24 Reinforcements entering at Aden? - 11/19/2012 7:02:55 PM   
General Patton

 

Posts: 122
Joined: 1/23/2010
From: Mass. USA
Status: offline 		So, whats the answer?

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RE: B-24 Reinforcements entering at Aden? - 11/19/2012 7:05:17 PM   
General Patton

 

Posts: 122
Joined: 1/23/2010
From: Mass. USA
Status: offline 		crsutton, by the way, how was it when sandy when thru? I have friends and family in jersey and long island that were without power for about 10 days.

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RE: B-24 Reinforcements entering at Aden? - 11/19/2012 7:36:02 PM   
crsutton


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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: General Patton

crsutton, by the way, how was it when sandy when thru? I have friends and family in jersey and long island that were without power for about 10 days.


They simply forgot to put the plug back into the outlet?

Seriously we lost power and phone for 10 days in Maryland after Hurricane Isabel came though in 03. It was not fun.

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