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Convoy Routing Anomaly

 
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Convoy Routing Anomaly - 10/25/2012 4:49:13 PM   
Omnius


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I was playing the Axis side in the 1941 Barbarossa scenario and would occassionally switch over to see what the British, British Colonies were doing convoy wise. I was aghast to see that British supply convoys were routing from London through Gibraltar and the Mediterrean to Tobruk, Valetta and Alexandria. Why were they routing convoys around teh Cape of Africa. I saw that the British AI only ran convoys for two turns, then stopped completely due to losses by German and Italian actions around England and in the Med.

What really caught my eye was the British Colonies routing their resource shipments to Great Britain through the Med instead of routing them through the Atantic around the Cape of Good Hope. The British Colony convoys ran every turn, usually two and sometimes three convoys per turn and they suffered horrendous losses. I did see the BC AI switch the convoy route destinations but never the route through the Med.

I'm just starting a 1941 Barbarossa campaign as the Allies and am wondering if I'm going to have problems playing the British Colonies getting my resource convoys routed through the Atlantic to Britain. I know I watched the AI's playing while I watched as Switzerland in version 1.02 and I saw BC resource convoys routing through the Atlantic and not the Med. Now in 1.03 I'm seeing something very different.

I wish I could manually route the convoy instead of being held hostage to an AI that acts suicidal.
Omnius
Post #: 1
RE: Convoy Routing Anomaly - 10/25/2012 5:13:03 PM   
gwgardner

 

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I thought all british Colonies convoys routed through the Atlantic. Certainly, Italian and German subs situated in the Atlantic near the Colonies hex do a lot of damage.

(in reply to Omnius)
Post #: 2
RE: Convoy Routing Anomaly - 10/27/2012 5:22:05 PM   
Omnius


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From: Salinas, CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

I thought all british Colonies convoys routed through the Atlantic. Certainly, Italian and German subs situated in the Atlantic near the Colonies hex do a lot of damage.


gwgardner,
I am playing with the new 1.03 beta version. I distinctly remember seeing British Colony resource convoys regularly routing through the Atlantic in version 1.02 so am wondering if this new Med routing is some new wrinkle in 1.03 that needs ironing out. In the 1941 scenario I used the mighty Italian Navy to stop the British supply convoys in two turns and to destroy lots of BC transports and resources heading to Britain. I'm going to try the 1939 scenario and play the Brits and BC myself to see if this new routing persists. Not a bad way to go before Italy goes to war as I think that route is shorter, but after Italy is at war that route becomes deadly with serious resource losses possible. I watch the convoy logs regularly to see how things work and it wasn't the German navy that did so much of the damage though I certainly had it out disrupting British resources.
Omnius

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Post #: 3
RE: Convoy Routing Anomaly - 10/27/2012 11:44:18 PM   
doomtrader


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Hi,

I have received your email, however my replies are bouncing back

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Post #: 4
RE: Convoy Routing Anomaly - 11/2/2012 3:52:38 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 374
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From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

Hi,

I have received your email, however my replies are bouncing back


doomtrader,
I'm glad my saved game files reached you. I sure hope you'll be able to figure out the Axis supply problem in Egypt I've reported.

I'm not sure why your e-mails are bouncing back, I just checked my spam folder at my att.net provider and found none of yours there.

I started a 1939 Grand Campaign game playing all countries. I see that unlike version 1.02 the British Colony convoys route through the Med instead of the Atlantic. While that is historically accurate that changed once Italy got into the war. I'll double check that in my game to see if the change happens but in other games I haven't seen that happen until I close off one end of the Med. It sure would be good to have the switch happen as soon as Italy enters the war. Making the program search for the shortest route is good in theory but in this case it's bad in practice.
Omnius

(in reply to doomtrader)
Post #: 5
Please Fix Convoy Routing - 11/12/2012 10:27:01 PM   
Omnius


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From: Salinas, CA
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doomtrader,
Please fix the convoy routing so that British and British Colony supply and resource convoys route around Africa and through the Atlantic instead of through the Mediterranean. I've discovered that once Italy joins the war the convoy losses become too extreme for either Britain or the British Colonies to endure. I know that in 1.02 the convoy routing was through the Atlantic. Only if I capture Gibraltar or Suez as the Axis does the convoy routing change to around Africa and through the Atlantic. This ruins the game for any player playing the Brits and/or British Colonies.

Also please fix the convoy routine so that when the automatic convoy control box is checked off that the stupid Artificial Ignorance doesn't change anything. I'm playing every country in my current game and I'm really peeved that as the British Colonies I can't set my convoys the way I want them as to number and destination without the stupid AI changing things by adding convoys or changing destinations. This is beyond frustrating and manual control should mean just that, manual control with absolutely no stupid programming interfering. I want the stupid program to just execute my convoy orders exactly as I laid them out, no adding convoys and no changing destinations. Not even cancelling convoys if the prior ones got sunk. Only if I ordered more convoys than I have transports or resources for should those convoys not be executed.
Omnius

(in reply to Omnius)
Post #: 6
RE: Please Fix Convoy Routing - 11/13/2012 2:48:53 AM   
doomtrader


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As wrote in other thread.
Looks like eerything works just fine.

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Post #: 7
RE: Please Fix Convoy Routing - 11/19/2012 5:24:44 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 374
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From: Salinas, CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

As wrote in other thread.
Looks like eerything works just fine.


doomtrader,
I have to disagree that everything is working fine. In version 1.02 the British Colony resource convoys routed through the around Africa and through the Atlantic in the 1939 scenario automatically and in the 1.03 beta version they all route through the Med. That is okay until Italy gets into the war and then the Italian subs have a field day helping the German subs stop convoys dead in their tracks. Something most definitely changed between the two versions and whatever it was needs to be changed back. Is allowing Italian subs to have a field day sinking British Colony or Iraqi resource convoys in the Med with impunity fine by you? What's really needed is a simple way to choose pathing through the Med or around Africa.

Also it is most annoying that the program does anything convoy related with any country if the automatic convoy control is turned off. I absolutely hate playing the British Colonies and having the stupid AI change my routing or add convoys beyond what I set up. I want total manual control of my convoys for every country, especially the British Colonies. Please fix this absolutely annoying feature so playing the British Colonies manually isn't so frustrating.

If the convoy routine was working fine I wouldn't be making such a fuss!
Omnius

(in reply to doomtrader)
Post #: 8
RE: Please Fix Convoy Routing - 1/18/2013 11:22:58 PM   
Omnius


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From: Salinas, CA
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I'm hoping that we can see doomtrader fix the British Colony convoy routing system. Here's my earlier efforts at convincing him that the change from 1.02 to 1.03 that routed convoys through the Med only was bad for the game and us players who want to play the BC.
Omnius

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Post #: 9
RE: Please Fix Convoy Routing - 1/19/2013 1:58:24 AM   
gwgardner

 

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Yep you were right. There's little other purpose for having the British Colonies hex in the lower left corner of the map, with all those around-the-cape sea zone hexes, if the convoy system is not going to use them.

How hard would it be for a button/checkbox to be added to the convoy creation/maintenance window, saying: go through the Med or go around the Horn?

Of course ideally we should have player routing of convoys sea-zone by sea-zone.

< Message edited by gwgardner -- 1/19/2013 2:00:06 AM >

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Post #: 10
RE: Please Fix Convoy Routing - 1/19/2013 5:36:44 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 374
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From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

Yep you were right. There's little other purpose for having the British Colonies hex in the lower left corner of the map, with all those around-the-cape sea zone hexes, if the convoy system is not going to use them.

How hard would it be for a button/checkbox to be added to the convoy creation/maintenance window, saying: go through the Med or go around the Horn?

Of course ideally we should have player routing of convoys sea-zone by sea-zone.


gwgardener,
Since you mentioned routing convoys sea zone by sea zone are you looking forward to Matrix releasing World in Flames? That's how WiF will handle convoy routing, and they finally figured out how to dumb down the AI so it didn't redo human convoy routing.

I sure hope doomtrader will answer your question as regards how difficult it would be to add a button for us to choose routing through the Med or around Africa. I hope he can do it easily but fear it might be more work than we realize. Actually early in the 1939 scenario it would be better to route through the Med, until Italy joins in then going around Africa becomes the best option.

Sometimes the problem is a programmer doesn't have the time to enjoy his handiwork the way we do. He doesn't have the time to play the British Colonies manually so doesn't experience our frustration when we play the BC manually and watch in horror as our resource convoys are wiped out by the lethal combination of German and Italian subs.

I know that doomtrader is trying to make it better for the AI's but I can only hope that now he'll understand that what is good for the AI goose is not good for the human gander.
Omnius

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Post #: 11
RE: Please Fix Convoy Routing - 1/19/2013 5:49:18 PM   
gwgardner

 

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Two problems with World in Flames: will it ever actually be released? How will they price it? If it's like Grigsby's Eastern Front, I'll never be able to get it. Just can't/won't spend that kind of money on a game. Even Eastern Front on sale was priced too high.

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Post #: 12
RE: Please Fix Convoy Routing - 1/19/2013 6:04:12 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 374
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From: Salinas, CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

Two problems with World in Flames: will it ever actually be released? How will they price it? If it's like Grigsby's Eastern Front, I'll never be able to get it. Just can't/won't spend that kind of money on a game. Even Eastern Front on sale was priced too high.


gwgardener,

Some valid points. I expressed a concern about WiF's release considering the programmers health problems of late on the Matrix WiF forum. Considering how long it has taken to develop the pricing issue is a big question. If it is priced too high then I may not buy it either regardless of whether I can easily afford it. I gave up on Grigsby games many, many years ago, he never finishes a game properly, there's always some game features that just never work and he never cares to fix them because he's on to some new ripoff project trying to make money by giving us a slightly updated version of one of his old games.
Omnius

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Post #: 13
RE: Please Fix Convoy Routing - 1/19/2013 9:52:08 PM   
doomtrader


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Making the feature to set up the convoy route by human is probably possible, however will need a lot of programming work.
I'm not saying not, but this is pretty low on our priority list.

Also IMHO as a player, I think this is one of those things that are beyond the player's uber-control. Maybe not perfect solution and maybe not the nicest one, but for sure making the war harder.

(in reply to Omnius)
Post #: 14
RE: Please Fix Convoy Routing - 1/20/2013 4:19:10 AM   
JLPOWELL


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I completely agree.

This as it cannot be modified by the players and is not a huge engineering effort is something we will likely get ... eventually. I do appreciate how much support to feedback we get as the game evolves, but waiting (like for World in Flames) can be hard....

quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

Yep you were right. There's little other purpose for having the British Colonies hex in the lower left corner of the map, with all those around-the-cape sea zone hexes, if the convoy system is not going to use them.

How hard would it be for a button/checkbox to be added to the convoy creation/maintenance window, saying: go through the Med or go around the Horn?

Of course ideally we should have player routing of convoys sea-zone by sea-zone.

quote:

Yep you were right. There's little other purpose for having the British Colonies hex in the lower left corner of the map, with all those around-the-cape sea zone hexes, if the convoy system is not going to use them.

How hard would it be for a button/checkbox to be added to the convoy creation/maintenance window, saying: go through the Med or go around the Horn?

Of course ideally we should have player routing of convoys sea-zone by sea-zone.


_____________________________

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Post #: 15
RE: Please Fix Convoy Routing - 1/20/2013 4:31:58 AM   
JLPOWELL


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Doom,

Rather than a complete redesign (adding a player controlled module) a few rather simple tweaks could be made.

The first two would involve significant engineering effort and would fix the worst of the problem. The third does not sound too tough either but would not be as easy as the first two. Obviously manual routing would be more difficult.

1. Allied Convoys should NEVER go thru Bay of Biscay unless a port in the zone is the start or end of the convoy (just take it out of consideration)
2. Set Convoys to Suez from US UK and 'CW' to always avoid the Med (and the Bay of Biscay )
3. A check box "avoid MED" would not be that hard. If enabled just invoke the routine which blocks convoys from routing past Gibraltar if not controlled (such a setting must already exist based on the way the game performs.


< Message edited by JLPOWELL -- 1/20/2013 4:33:51 AM >


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RE: Please Fix Convoy Routing - 1/20/2013 4:50:03 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 374
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

Making the feature to set up the convoy route by human is probably possible, however will need a lot of programming work.
I'm not saying not, but this is pretty low on our priority list.

Also IMHO as a player, I think this is one of those things that are beyond the player's uber-control. Maybe not perfect solution and maybe not the nicest one, but for sure making the war harder.


doomtrader,
Thanks for finally chiming in here on our discusion of our extreme frustration with the British Colony routing re-programming. As a minimum could you just fix the hardcoding you did to rout all convoys around Africa after Italy joins the war? Once Italy joins it just becomes so frustrating to watch the convoys try to run the German and Italian raider gauntlet and get slaughtered turn after turn after turn with no way of shutting down the BC convoys.

If you played the British Colonies and Italy and Germany so you could place lots of German and Italian subs in sea areas along the BC convoy path you'd see why we're screaming bloody murder. I know that in version 1.02 the BC convoys routed around Africa, it was 1.03 that changed the route. I just wish we could have the old 1.02 programming back since it was less deadly and frustrating.

While this is pretty low on your priority list it is very high on our list and we customers are always right, or you risk losing customers if you don't pay attention to our priorities. It's not a matter of we not wanting the game to be hard, we just don't want it to be impossible and that is what you have given us. I really don't want uber control, I just want a convoy routing system that isn't so Machiavellian. Do you enjoy torturing us? We do not like being tortured!

JLPOWELL - you actually can avoid the Bay of Biscay by changing your ending destinations. If you route to ports that end in The Channel like Southhampton, or London or on England's East coast the path goes through the Bay of Biscay. If you route to Scapa Flow or that port in Western England it doesn't. Unfortunately doomtrader's hardcoding means that the hardcoding he did will create convoys that do route through the Bay of Dismay.

Please doomtrader, you're our only hope for stopping this extremely ill thought-out British Colony convoy hardcoding. All this work on your part was a total waste of time because it is the worst feature of the game and a real frustration. It also forces the BC AI to stop sending resources to England, is that what you want is for the Allied AI to have a more difficult time against us Axis humans? Just change it back so that all convoys route around Africa always if you can't set a trigger to make the switch when Italy joins the war.
Omnius

(in reply to doomtrader)
Post #: 17
RE: Please Fix Convoy Routing - 1/20/2013 5:01:24 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 374
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JLPOWELL

Doom,

Rather than a complete redesign (adding a player controlled module) a few rather simple tweaks could be made.

The first two would involve significant engineering effort and would fix the worst of the problem. The third does not sound too tough either but would not be as easy as the first two. Obviously manual routing would be more difficult.

1. Allied Convoys should NEVER go thru Bay of Biscay unless a port in the zone is the start or end of the convoy (just take it out of consideration)
2. Set Convoys to Suez from US UK and 'CW' to always avoid the Med (and the Bay of Biscay )
3. A check box "avoid MED" would not be that hard. If enabled just invoke the routine which blocks convoys from routing past Gibraltar if not controlled (such a setting must already exist based on the way the game performs.



JLPOWELL,
Actually you can avoid the Bay of Dismay by changing the ending destination of convoys. The convoy routing goes through the Bay of Dismay for any English port that is itself east of the Bay of Dismay. If you switch the routing to the western English port or Scapa Flow it changes the route slightly around the Bay of Dismay. You need to set different destinations and then read the routing carefully for each port to see the different pathing choices.

I hope that at a minimum doomtrader will relent and give us your 2nd option. If he just corrects his hardcoding from through the Med always to around Africa always we'd at least not have that Machiavellian frustration he's dumping on us unwittingly. He wants to make the game harder on us, but we don't always play the Allies so he unwittingly makes it easier for us when we play the Axis.
Omnius

(in reply to JLPOWELL)
Post #: 18
RE: Please Fix Convoy Routing - 1/21/2013 5:25:55 AM   
JLPOWELL


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Production convoys are not set by the player even if you control the colonies. Colonies just send stuff where and when they like. Re supplies I have seen convoys go thru Bay of Biscay on supplies sent from Liverpool to Malta for example Totally broken IMO

House rule no axis ships in Bay of Biscay Until US or UK deploys there would work for PvP games. Gave up playing the AI long ago.

Something broken which is 'Working As Designed' is actually worse than a bug.

< Message edited by JLPOWELL -- 1/21/2013 5:28:32 AM >


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