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No Yamatos! What would you build?

 
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No Yamatos! What would you build? - 10/24/2012 3:31:19 AM   
fodder


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I've decided to remove the Yamatos from my new mod.
So what would you build in their place?
This may be an over simplification but here are the rules.

You can only build designs available at the time.
You are restricted to useing a total of 190,000 tons.

To build hulls, keel laid down to launch.
You can use the drydock used for the Yamato from 11/4/37 to 8/8/40.
The slipway used for the Musushi from 3/29/38 to 11/1/40.
And the prize the slipway for the Shinano can be used from 5/4/40 to 10/8/44.

If they will fit, you can build more than one hull per location at the same time.

So what would you build?

Or do you know of another good limiting factor in what you can build?

Thanks for any interest.

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RE: No Yamatos! What would you build? - 10/24/2012 3:52:41 AM   
wdolson

 

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IMO Japan would have been much better off to build 2-3 more Shokakus in place of the Yamatos. The Shokakus were much more expensive than the Hiryus which is essentially what they built in the crash rebuilding program, but they were probably the best carriers the IJN had. They and the Junyo were the only fleet carriers that took damage and survived. They also were large and were laid out with the lessons learned from the earlier carrier designs.

For the amount of steel wasted on the Yamatos (4 hulls laid down if I recall correctly), they could probably have built 6 Shokakus instead, though their naval aviation side would have been sorely pressed to produce the air groups. They probably could have created two more air groups from the land based naval air. All those land based, pre-war trained, single engine IJN pilots had to also be carrier qualified as part of their training. In his book, Saburo Sakai talked about the difficulty he had learning to be carrier qualified just before the war started and in the end he never landed on a carrier again.

The US would have been hard pressed if Japan got 2-3 more Shokakus about the time the Yamato and Musashi were commissioned.

Bill

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RE: No Yamatos! What would you build? - 10/24/2012 4:20:33 AM   
fodder


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Two Shokakus are on my list. They were faster builds than the Yamatos. A quicky with the math and I figure to have the two of them commissioned and ready for action on Dec 7, 1941.



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RE: No Yamatos! What would you build? - 10/24/2012 4:34:59 AM   
wdolson

 

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At minimum a couple could have been ready by early 42. It may not have been possible to get two more carriers shook down and the air groups completely sorted out by Dec 7, 1941. The US generally took longer to get their CAGs worked up, but it took several months to get Essex carriers from complete to the war.

Bill

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RE: No Yamatos! What would you build? - 10/24/2012 5:22:19 AM   
fodder


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Here were my thoughts

The Shokaku was laid down 12/12 1937 and commissioned 8/8/1941 (roughly 44 months)
The Zuikaku was laid down 5/25/1938 and commissioned 9/25/1941 (roughly 40 months)

I can start one one month before the Shokaku, so it would be commissioned say July 1941. (roughly 44 months)
The second one could be laid down two months before the Zuikaku. It could also be
commissioned in July 1941. (roughly 40 months)

As for the air groups they will carry. They will be like the ones in game that are asigned
to the original Shokakus. Less experienced then the other carrier groups. Say mid 60's


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RE: No Yamatos! What would you build? - 10/24/2012 5:33:12 AM   
wdolson

 

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When were the Yamatos laid down. One limiting factor for building capital ships is the country's shipyards large enough to build them. When were the Yamatos laid down? You should have your new Shokakus laid down the same time as these ships would be taking the same slips as the Yamatos used. Building them in parallel with the other carriers may not have been possible because there were not enough slips.

I haven't done any research on what Japan's capital ship building capacity was, but I know it was limited. I have read that one of the limiting factors in building Essexes and BBs in the US was the availability of capital ship capable shipyards.

Bill

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RE: No Yamatos! What would you build? - 10/24/2012 5:38:13 AM   
fodder


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

Building them in parallel with the other carriers may not have been possible because there were not enough slips.

Bill


See original post for slipway availablity.


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RE: No Yamatos! What would you build? - 10/24/2012 6:07:07 AM   
1EyedJacks


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10 Mogami Class CA

Convert CS to CVL

2 Armored Tank Divisions

3 mechanized divisions

Increase production of Zeroes & Oscars.

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RE: No Yamatos! What would you build? - 10/24/2012 3:27:33 PM   
Puhis


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Couple Shokakus, and more Yugumo and Akizuki class destroyers.

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RE: No Yamatos! What would you build? - 10/24/2012 3:47:20 PM   
John 3rd


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Read the first few pages of 'Perfect War' Thread here. We went into ALL SORTS of options regarding this thinking.

Reluctant Admiral allows for the building of the first pair but then shifts to other construction (pair of Shokaku-Kai CVs).


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RE: No Yamatos! What would you build? - 10/24/2012 4:25:58 PM   
fodder


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Couple Shokakus, and more Yugumo and Akizuki class destroyers.



This has been my basic thinking.

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RE: No Yamatos! What would you build? - 10/24/2012 4:27:26 PM   
fodder


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Read the first few pages of 'Perfect War' Thread here. We went into ALL SORTS of options regarding this thinking.

Reluctant Admiral allows for the building of the first pair but then shifts to other construction (pair of Shokaku-Kai CVs).



Gave this thread a look see, I'll have to go back when I have more time.

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RE: No Yamatos! What would you build? - 10/24/2012 8:29:03 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


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Atomic bomb shelters!

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RE: No Yamatos! What would you build? - 10/25/2012 4:03:53 PM   
cavalry

 

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RA has the thinking about right - two were too advanced to stop after that the game is open to new diections. In RA the Japs have potential to be very strong in early 43 probably stronger than the allies if they do not suffer big losses.

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RE: No Yamatos! What would you build? - 10/25/2012 7:13:20 PM   
John 3rd


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That is what I'm talkin' about BABY!

Everything depends on 'when' you deviate from the timeline. We chose when Yamamoto becomes Naval Minister instead of C-in-C Combined Fleet.


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RE: No Yamatos! What would you build? - 10/25/2012 9:33:22 PM   
fodder


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Crap! I just lost two Shokaku class carriers. "When" you decide to deviate from the time
line is not the most important issue. Why you decided to do so is. I didn't go back in
time to stop the Yamatos. It is a bonus to me that I'm back in a point in time that I
can stop them. Building more aircraft carriers does not fit in with why I went back in
time. I will still not be building the Yamatos, but I will also not be building Shokakus.

I thank you for helping to keep me true to my original purpose.

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RE: No Yamatos! What would you build? - 10/26/2012 11:51:17 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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instead of 3 yamato hulls, lay down 2 Super Yamatos

or 80 kagero type destroyers packed with long-lances

some other ideas are submarines (100 big ones, or 200 small ones)

or a number of small monitor craft with 18" guns, but small size and displacement




really until it was proven that AC could sink battleships under way,

i would be reluctant to abandon surface craft altogether


or build 10,000 tanks and attack the soviet union in mid 1942 (probably only way Axis could win)









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RE: No Yamatos! What would you build? - 10/27/2012 5:45:51 PM   
fodder


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Good news is I've got more slipway (drydock) time to use and I don't have to worry too much about going over on tonnage.

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson
For the amount of steel wasted on the Yamatos (4 hulls laid down if I recall correctly)


Hull No. 111 was laid down in the yamato drydock after the yamato was launched. What ever was built of this hull sat there until it was cancelled in March of 42 and broken up for scrap. This had to tack several months to do.

Also before the Yamato was started they had to deepen this drydock so the ship could fit in it and they had to bring in or build larger cranes to handle the larger pieces need to build the ship. This also had to take several months to do.

So I'm going to change the availablity time of this dry dock to 9/37 to 5/42.

I've also decided that on 9/37 a pair of Tone class CAs will be laid down in this dry dock.


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RE: No Yamatos! What would you build? - 10/30/2012 2:33:15 AM   
fodder


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Kiss the two Tone class CAs good bye. Do you know that the two Tones sat on blocks for 29 months! That's way too long to tie up a slipway. Anyway after many redos I came up with my build list.

In the Yamato/Hull No.111 dry dock available from 9/37 to 5/42.
On 9/1/37 six Kageru class DDs are laid down. These fit in the dry dock in two rows of three, one in front of the other. Kagerus had an average keel to water build time of 11 months. These six ships launch on or about 7/30/1938. Give a month to clean up and set up for the next batch.
On 9/1/38 a second group of six Kageru DDs are laid down. These launch on 7/30/1939. Again give a month for clean/set up.
On 9/1/39 a third group of six Kageru DDs are laid down. These launch on 7/30/1940.
Give a month.
On 9/1/40 six Yugumo class DDs are laid down. These also fit in the dry dock in two rows of three, one in front of the other. Yugumos had an average keel to water build time of 10 months. So these launch on 6/30/41. Give a month.
On 8/1/41 a second group of six Yugumos are laid down. These are launched on 5/31/1942 and were done with this dry dock.

On the Musushi slipway available from 3/29/38 to 11/1/40.
On 4/1/38 twenty four CH-4 class sub chasers are laid down. These fit on the slipway in four rows of six on one in front of the other. CH-4s had an average keel to water build time of five months. These ships launch on 8/31/38. Give a month.
On 10/1/38 six Kageru DDs are laid down. These launch on 8/31/39. Give a month.
On 10/1/39 six more Kagerus are laid down and they launch on 8/31/40. We are now done with this slipway.

On the Shinano slipway available from 5/4/40 to 10/8/44.
On 5/4/40 six Yugumo DDs are laid down, these launch on 2/4/41. Give a month, minus four days.
On 4/1/41 six more Yugumos are laid down and launch on 1/30/42. a month later.
On 3/1/42 twelve Etorofu class escorts are laid down. These fit on the slipway in three rows of four. The Etorofus had an average build time of eight months. They launch the end of 10/42. A month passes.
The beginning of Dec 42 twelve Mikura class Es are laid down. In same lay out as above, but the Mikuras only take five months to build. These launch the end of 4/43. Add a month.
6/1/43 twelve more Mikuras are laid down. They hit the water the end of 10/43. Skip a month.
12/1/43 twelve Ukuru class Es are laid down. Thanks to some prefabrication, the Ukurus had a build time of four months. These twelve launch 3/31/44. For the last time add a month.
5/1/44 twelve more Ukurus are started. They finish the end of 9/44 and we are done.

Totals:
30 x Kageru class DDs.....60,990 tons
24 x Yugumo class DDs....49,848
12 x Etotofu class Es........10,440
24 x Mikura class Es.........22,560
24 x Ukuru class Es..........22,560
24 x CH-4 class SCs..........6,984

Total tons used...............173,382

Well, that's what I came up with.

Comments?






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RE: No Yamatos! What would you build? - 10/30/2012 3:16:21 AM   
Insano

 

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interesting you didn't build any more capital ships. 54 more DD would be VERY nice to have. However, early on I wouldn't put all my eggs in to the front line destroyer basket. Japan is also direly lacking in quality ASW escorts with long legs at wars start.

My .02, I've always liked the Shimushu class corvettes. I think the later Etorofu class escorts are basically the same as the Shimushu's. I just would have built more of these earlier. Also how about some more large and fast tankers?

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RE: No Yamatos! What would you build? - 10/30/2012 3:53:04 AM   
John 3rd


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Why not simply expand the historical DD Yards detailed in Kaigun?

Use those two big slipways for something 'fun.'

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RE: No Yamatos! What would you build? - 10/30/2012 8:59:52 AM   
wdolson

 

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Big slipways are too important to tie them up with smaller ships that can easily be built in smaller yards.

Bill

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RE: No Yamatos! What would you build? - 10/30/2012 9:13:45 AM   
RisingSun


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If it was up to me, i would build 1,000+ aircrafts per yamato instead. Their aircraft carriers production as it is. The only problems is that need to train up those pilots, which its the most important factor.

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RE: No Yamatos! What would you build? - 10/30/2012 9:55:14 AM   
Puhis


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fodder is looking for alternative use of 190.000 tons of steel and big shipyards. You can't use steel or slipways to produce aircrafts.

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RE: No Yamatos! What would you build? - 10/30/2012 1:29:48 PM   
RisingSun


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

fodder is looking for alternative use of 190.000 tons of steel and big shipyards. You can't use steel or slipways to produce aircrafts.


True, but the most important issues was buying or paying the workers to do it. Im sure they have the resources to do it, just need to expand the plants that make them.

This movie explain it...
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3169715

Too bad not everyone have a chance to see it yet. They did mention they rather have 1,000+ aircrafts instead building the yamato. The homeland does have enough plus surplus from other regions that they have from Korea. Making those aircrafts isnt a problem.

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RE: No Yamatos! What would you build? - 10/30/2012 2:37:26 PM   
ny59giants


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I would go with 2 more Shokaku Class CVs, another 4 CAs, and the rest as DDs.

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RE: No Yamatos! What would you build? - 10/30/2012 3:09:09 PM   
John 3rd


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The Sho-Kai's would be good and could deploy by mid-43. You could also go with the cheaper and faster addition of more Agano CLs...


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RE: No Yamatos! What would you build? - 10/31/2012 11:06:42 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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quote:

True, but the most important issues was buying or paying the workers to do it. Im sure they have the resources to do it, just need to expand the plants that make them.


Ridiculous.



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RE: No Yamatos! What would you build? - 10/31/2012 11:08:03 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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japanese limits were materials

doubt they paid their korean or chinese factory laborers


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RE: No Yamatos! What would you build? - 10/31/2012 11:13:46 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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quote:

You can't use steel or slipways to produce aircrafts.


Exactly.

what i have said since.. a long time

Please make a separate HI points system for AC and Ships/Tanks .. that way ridiculous ideas will be less common

like that japanese officer who suggested "let's melt down the yamato and use the steel to build warplanes"

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