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RE: Where have you been hiding this game?

 
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RE: Where have you been hiding this game? - 10/26/2012 4:15:24 AM   
adecoy95


Posts: 405
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Algoritm

Don't blame the Youtube community, it's only a small minority of silly people that post provocative comments that encourage silly responses.

DW is a game that can't possibly attract that kind of people... I hope


well thats kinda broad an general attitude towards a community

(in reply to Algoritm)
Post #: 31
RE: Where have you been hiding this game? - 10/26/2012 5:01:57 AM   
Shark7


Posts: 7128
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From: The Big Nowhere
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RaffleSnaffle


quote:

ORIGINAL: wozza

My philosophy is this. If the game is on steam or if it contains any DRM which requires activation i will not buy it i don't care how good the game is.


Do you consider a cd key DRM? Because you need one before you install DW


Its a less invasive DRM. Basically, having to use the serial number just once to install the game is a non-issue. That's been in games as far back as I can remember (the old 8086 days). At least DW doesn't hit you for anything when you start the game.

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Post #: 32
RE: Where have you been hiding this game? - 10/26/2012 5:11:34 AM   
RaffleSnaffle


Posts: 100
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7


quote:

ORIGINAL: RaffleSnaffle


quote:

ORIGINAL: wozza

My philosophy is this. If the game is on steam or if it contains any DRM which requires activation i will not buy it i don't care how good the game is.


Do you consider a cd key DRM? Because you need one before you install DW


Its a less invasive DRM. Basically, having to use the serial number just once to install the game is a non-issue. That's been in games as far back as I can remember (the old 8086 days). At least DW doesn't hit you for anything when you start the game.


True. My point is that steam WOULD broaden the market for this game is all. And help set it up so hopefully, if they make a sequel, it sells better than it would without the first being on steam.

Whether you agree with using steam or not is a separate conversation entirely. My point was that it would generally help the game by making it more known/accessible to more people. I am very much happy with the community we have here though and however Matrix decides to market and sell their game is completely up to them obviously. Just making a case for steam is all. As someone who uses it and enjoys it :)

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 33
RE: Where have you been hiding this game? - 10/26/2012 6:07:06 AM   
Shark7


Posts: 7128
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RaffleSnaffle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7


quote:

ORIGINAL: RaffleSnaffle


quote:

ORIGINAL: wozza

My philosophy is this. If the game is on steam or if it contains any DRM which requires activation i will not buy it i don't care how good the game is.


Do you consider a cd key DRM? Because you need one before you install DW


Its a less invasive DRM. Basically, having to use the serial number just once to install the game is a non-issue. That's been in games as far back as I can remember (the old 8086 days). At least DW doesn't hit you for anything when you start the game.


True. My point is that steam WOULD broaden the market for this game is all. And help set it up so hopefully, if they make a sequel, it sells better than it would without the first being on steam.

Whether you agree with using steam or not is a separate conversation entirely. My point was that it would generally help the game by making it more known/accessible to more people. I am very much happy with the community we have here though and however Matrix decides to market and sell their game is completely up to them obviously. Just making a case for steam is all. As someone who uses it and enjoys it :)


As for the advertising, it would be great. Like I said, so long as I can still get my games here without the oppressive DRM measures I'm happy. They can sell it anywhere else they want to so long as I can still get my easy to deal with copy here at Matrix (as well as my physical copy).

And the beauty of the DW community here is even when we disagree, we aren't disagreeable. One of the few places where the nastiness of the net just doesn't exist.

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to RaffleSnaffle)
Post #: 34
RE: Where have you been hiding this game? - 10/26/2012 8:16:11 AM   
Darkspire


Posts: 1936
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My 50ps worth

Like music my games tend to be all different styles and im on quite a few fourms for all sorts of games and one of the main things im always noticing with Steam is the fact that they do something with the save games for the programs sold via there Steam app and with DW you can tend to put lot of hours into a game, maybe months and to then find the save corrupt as has been the case with many Steam bought games would be really annoying, case in point the X series, Albion Prelude and Terran Conflict those two can have saves that go back years and im always seeing corruption issues with saves if they got them off Steam, the disc version is fine, no issues at all. The saves issue is just one of a number of points that ruin folks gameplay, there are others like updating software, mods not working with the version of a game brought, sorry hired, off steam. So no, its not just DRM that folks dont like, I refuse to have anything to do with DRM or Steam and feel that its a wise move unfortunately more and more folks who really dont care what goes into there system are on the rise, with the idea of 'if the PC is broken due to software, who cares, sad but ill just get another laptop or PC and download them again, If I can, from the Steam app' it is a disposable society we live in sadly.

Darkspire

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(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 35
RE: Where have you been hiding this game? - 10/26/2012 9:12:50 AM   
bryanhbell

 

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By the way, in the general discussion area on Matrix Games' forum last November, a poster asked about the chances of Matrix selling any of its games on Steam. Here's what Iain McNeil from Slitherine/Matrix Games had to say (source):

quote:

Very unlikely - Steam would not be interested in these type of games. They only want cheap mass-market games. Can you imagine War in the East at $80? :) It just wouldn't happen...


A few days later, he said this (source):

quote:

...On the Steam arguments we're not convinced that the Steam audience is a good match for the majority of the catalogue. Take in to account also that Steam take 30%, you have to customize your code to use their system which is a significant amount of work for the number of games we're talking about and Steam absolutely require you to slash your prices. Overall you have to sell a lot more copies to just stand still in terms of revenues. It is not the slam dunk that everyone thinks it is. It also fragments the community which has an intangible cost but something we are very aware of and reluctant to do.

Another thing to bear in mind is Steam get 200 submissions a week and only 1 person allocated to review them. I'd guess only about 1% of the games people try to get on steam actually get on steam. The vast majority are never looked at or rejected. I'm guessing the majority of our line up would slide to the "don't even review category" :)

Having said all this it may be something we trial at some point. Never say never!


That last concern has been addressed somewhat by Steam's new Greenlight feature.

I'm not sure what the concern over customizing the code would be. As far as I know, Steamworks (the API that lets developers integrate many of Steam's functions within their software products) is entirely an optional thing. There are many games on Steam that don't utilize it.

The 30% cut, if true, would likely be balanced out by a much larger sales volume. According to Mike Ambrogi, one of the developers of the game Jamestown: "on the first day of the Steam Summer Sale, we earned more money than Jamestown’s entire earnings up to that point times three" (source)

EDIT: I don't know the story behind it, but there is one game on Steam listed as published by Matrix Games/GMX Media: Massive Assault.

< Message edited by bryanhbell -- 10/26/2012 9:28:46 AM >


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Post #: 36
RE: Where have you been hiding this game? - 10/26/2012 9:26:32 AM   
Darkspire


Posts: 1936
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bryanhbell

By the way, in the general discussion area on Matrix Games' forum last November, a poster asked about the chances of Matrix selling any of its games on Steam. Here's what Iain McNeil from Slitherine/Matrix Games had to say (source):

quote:

Very unlikely - Steam would not be interested in these type of games. They only want cheap mass-market games. Can you imagine War in the East at $80? :) It just wouldn't happen...


A few days later, he said this (source):

quote:

...On the Steam arguments we're not convinced that the Steam audience is a good match for the majority of the catalogue. Take in to account also that Steam take 30%, you have to customize your code to use their system which is a significant amount of work for the number of games we're talking about and Steam absolutely require you to slash your prices. Overall you have to sell a lot more copies to just stand still in terms of revenues. It is not the slam dunk that everyone thinks it is. It also fragments the community which has an intangible cost but something we are very aware of and reluctant to do.

Another thing to bear in mind is Steam get 200 submissions a week and only 1 person allocated to review them. I'd guess only about 1% of the games people try to get on steam actually get on steam. The vast majority are never looked at or rejected. I'm guessing the majority of our line up would slide to the "don't even review category" :)

Having said all this it may be something we trial at some point. Never say never!


That last concern has been addressed somewhat by Steam's new Greenlight feature.

I'm not sure what the concern over customizing the code would be. As far as I know, Steamworks (the API that lets developers integrate many of Steam's functions within their software products) is entirely an optional thing. There are many games on Steam that don't utilize it.

The 30% cut, if true, would likely be balanced out by a much larger sales volume. According to Mike Ambrogi, one of the developers of the game Jamestown: "on the first day of the Steam Summer Sale, we earned more money than Jamestown’s entire earnings up to that point times three" (source)

quote:

I'm not sure what the concern over customizing the code would be. As far as I know, Steamworks (the API that lets developers integrate many of Steam's functions within their software products) is entirely an optional thing. There are many games on Steam that don't utilize it.


Thankyou. I always thought it was Steam that messed with the saves. Now I at least have a little more insight into there policies.

Darkspire

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(in reply to bryanhbell)
Post #: 37
RE: Where have you been hiding this game? - 10/26/2012 9:34:34 AM   
bryanhbell

 

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One thing that might be breaking saves is updates. By default, Steam will push updates to your games as developers release them. I think it is somewhat common for developers to release updates that break old saved games. Fortunately, Steam lets you turn off auto-updating on a game-by-game basis.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Darkspire)
Post #: 38
RE: Where have you been hiding this game? - 10/26/2012 10:04:34 PM   
RaffleSnaffle


Posts: 100
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7


quote:

ORIGINAL: RaffleSnaffle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7


quote:

ORIGINAL: RaffleSnaffle


quote:

ORIGINAL: wozza

My philosophy is this. If the game is on steam or if it contains any DRM which requires activation i will not buy it i don't care how good the game is.


Do you consider a cd key DRM? Because you need one before you install DW


Its a less invasive DRM. Basically, having to use the serial number just once to install the game is a non-issue. That's been in games as far back as I can remember (the old 8086 days). At least DW doesn't hit you for anything when you start the game.


True. My point is that steam WOULD broaden the market for this game is all. And help set it up so hopefully, if they make a sequel, it sells better than it would without the first being on steam.

Whether you agree with using steam or not is a separate conversation entirely. My point was that it would generally help the game by making it more known/accessible to more people. I am very much happy with the community we have here though and however Matrix decides to market and sell their game is completely up to them obviously. Just making a case for steam is all. As someone who uses it and enjoys it :)


As for the advertising, it would be great. Like I said, so long as I can still get my games here without the oppressive DRM measures I'm happy. They can sell it anywhere else they want to so long as I can still get my easy to deal with copy here at Matrix (as well as my physical copy).

And the beauty of the DW community here is even when we disagree, we aren't disagreeable. One of the few places where the nastiness of the net just doesn't exist.



Couldn't agree more :)

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 39
RE: Where have you been hiding this game? - 10/27/2012 2:42:25 AM   
Kayoz


Posts: 1394
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From: Timbuktu
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bryanhbell
I found out about Distant Worlds when another player suggested it on reddit. I've done my best to give this game further exposure there by creating a subreddit for the game

Sadly, use of social media as a marketing tool is something that Matrix hasn't gotten to grips with. 931 likes for their Facebook page is a clue as to how well they're using it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RaffleSnaffle
...steam is good about having sales and makes it simple to recommend this game on steam to all of the people I have as friends on there as well.

Erik already addresses this - he negotiated with Steam and declined to enter into a contract with them. Steam being good or bad for marketing is irrelevant. Business with Steam wouldn't benefit Matrix and Code Force, so they didn't sign on the dotted line. As Steam contracts are confidential, anyone praising the benefits of Steam is expressing an opinion without any facts to support their assertion.

_____________________________

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Post #: 40
RE: Where have you been hiding this game? - 10/27/2012 3:07:05 AM   
bryanhbell

 

Posts: 55
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From: Issaquah, WA USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
Erik already addresses this - he negotiated with Steam and declined to enter into a contract with them.


I'd be interested in seeing the source of this info. Did Erik post about it somewhere on the forums?

_____________________________

Bryan H. Bell

(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 41
RE: Where have you been hiding this game? - 10/27/2012 3:22:51 AM   
slovenian89

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

quote:

ORIGINAL: bryanhbell
I found out about Distant Worlds when another player suggested it on reddit. I've done my best to give this game further exposure there by creating a subreddit for the game

Sadly, use of social media as a marketing tool is something that Matrix hasn't gotten to grips with. 931 likes for their Facebook page is a clue as to how well they're using it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RaffleSnaffle
...steam is good about having sales and makes it simple to recommend this game on steam to all of the people I have as friends on there as well.

Erik already addresses this - he negotiated with Steam and declined to enter into a contract with them. Steam being good or bad for marketing is irrelevant. Business with Steam wouldn't benefit Matrix and Code Force, so they didn't sign on the dotted line. As Steam contracts are confidential, anyone praising the benefits of Steam is expressing an opinion without any facts to support their assertion.

It may not have been beneficial to enter a contract with them previously, but it may be a good idea now... Just because it wasn't a good idea at the time doesn't mean it is off the board forever.

There are plenty of facts from publishers who use Steam regarding on how beneficial it is to them. I'll give you a pretty well-known strategy game publisher, Paradox Interactive. They have stated that Steam now accounts for approx. 3/4 of their total sales and they are owners of another distribution service, GamersGate. And a publisher spreading word about Steam helping sales being confidential is silly, them spreading word about that will help Steam get more business!

(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 42
RE: Where have you been hiding this game? - 10/27/2012 4:06:16 AM   
jpwrunyan


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Steam is a PITA.

I greatly prefer matrix. Gog.com is the best.

Found dw on youtube looking for 4x games.

(in reply to wozza)
Post #: 43
RE: Where have you been hiding this game? - 10/27/2012 4:24:37 AM   
Kayoz


Posts: 1394
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bryanhbell


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
Erik already addresses this - he negotiated with Steam and declined to enter into a contract with them.


I'd be interested in seeing the source of this info. Did Erik post about it somewhere on the forums?


I can't find the specific post - I think I pieced it together from several posts, in which he indicated that he was negotiating with Steam at one point, and later posted that it was in Matrix's interest to maximize profits for them and Code Force; but with no further comment on Steam.

It's possible that I'm wrong - but he probably can't comment on any negotiations due to non-disclosure agreements. Steam seems to be quite strict about enforcing silence regarding their contracts.

_____________________________

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Post #: 44
RE: Where have you been hiding this game? - 10/27/2012 4:37:00 AM   
Kayoz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slovenian89
And a publisher spreading word about Steam helping sales being confidential is silly, them spreading word about that will help Steam get more business!

All Steam contracts are confidential. Steam/Valve does not reveal any details of their division of monies, or sales figures.

PI's comments are anecdotal and not evidence. Their comments are as reliable as any comment you might see endorsing the effectiveness of "herbal Viagra", "anti-ageing creams" or weight loss products. If you trust them, then ... well, I know some people who do affiliate marketing and have a whole list of products they'd love to sell you.

_____________________________

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Post #: 45
RE: Where have you been hiding this game? - 10/27/2012 5:00:51 AM   
bryanhbell

 

Posts: 55
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From: Issaquah, WA USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
All Steam contracts are confidential. Steam/Valve does not reveal any details of their division of monies, or sales figures.

PI's comments are anecdotal and not evidence. Their comments are as reliable as any comment you might see endorsing the effectiveness of "herbal Viagra", "anti-ageing creams" or weight loss products. If you trust them, then ... well, I know some people who do affiliate marketing and have a whole list of products they'd love to sell you.


I understand you may hold some strong views on this subject, but can you perhaps tone it down a bit? No need to insult other posters.

I don't think the context of this forum is one in which we're expected to back up any statements we make with ironclad arguments supported by studies and statistics. I think it's understood here without calling it out specifically that we're just discussing our opinions about Matrix Games' marketing strategies.

_____________________________

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Post #: 46
RE: Where have you been hiding this game? - 10/27/2012 6:07:09 AM   
slovenian89

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bryanhbell


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
All Steam contracts are confidential. Steam/Valve does not reveal any details of their division of monies, or sales figures.

PI's comments are anecdotal and not evidence. Their comments are as reliable as any comment you might see endorsing the effectiveness of "herbal Viagra", "anti-ageing creams" or weight loss products. If you trust them, then ... well, I know some people who do affiliate marketing and have a whole list of products they'd love to sell you.


I understand you may hold some strong views on this subject, but can you perhaps tone it down a bit? No need to insult other posters.

I don't think the context of this forum is one in which we're expected to back up any statements we make with ironclad arguments supported by studies and statistics. I think it's understood here without calling it out specifically that we're just discussing our opinions about Matrix Games' marketing strategies.

I got a bunch of sources of official statements from CEOs of various publishers regarding sales figures on Steam and how they had a significant boost in revenue, but I can't post links... Still haven't seen anything bad about releasing on Steam, unless only the bad figures are "confidential".

(in reply to bryanhbell)
Post #: 47
RE: Where have you been hiding this game? - 10/27/2012 7:03:48 AM   
Shark7


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I don't think anyone doubts that using Steam will increase ones sales (which does not necessarily directly correlate into increased profits). I just think there is a market out there for folks like me that don't want to mess with applications like Steam just to play a game on my home computer.

A good comparison would be you selling antiques yourself or taking it to the auction house to be sold...

You can sell it yourself, and in you will likely not get the very top dollar for the product or sell as many of them, but you pocket ALL of the money (Matrix current model). Optionally you can sell the antiques via an auctioneer and sell more of them or even get more money for them...only now you add in additional overhead (Steam model).

Steam, just like the aution house, is going to take a portion of the sale as commission to cover their overhead (and lets face it, they want a profit too). That commission can be a large portion of the sale price (most auction houses get a 30% commission minimum).

So what you have to do is the math. Can selling X units at Y price via steam when paying their commission net you as much profit as selling A units at B price yourself? I'm sure the Matrix crew has done this math, and for now their answer is what it is.

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RE: Where have you been hiding this game? - 10/27/2012 7:38:29 AM   
wozza

 

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GOG would be worth looking at. That is something Matrix should look at i am not sure what the commission is but it would have to be less than Steam.

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 49
RE: Where have you been hiding this game? - 10/27/2012 7:40:41 AM   
RaffleSnaffle


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Not too sure I need to back what I said up with facts since the popularity of steam and it's widespread use speaks for itself. Still like the idea of greenlight; see if the game gains enough popularity there to see if it would be a good fit on the platform.

Also not saying I think Matrix HAS TO DO ANYTHING. I like what Shark7 has said about Matrix doing the math on if it's worth it to sell on Steam. They obviously explored it and it's not in there interest to do so.

Opinions aside Kayoz, software does have a tendency to sell on Steam. Not saying it would for sure be without a doubt a good thing to do for Matrix, but maybe it would. WHO KNOWS! haha.

Ok officially signing off on this discussion! :)



(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 50
RE: Where have you been hiding this game? - 10/27/2012 8:33:03 AM   
Velihopea


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I started an exactly similar post 5 months when I discovered DW (by recommendation on Paradox or was it stardock forums). There has been similar posts since at the rate of 1 per month.

I know Codeforce has declined steam. Well, people make mistakes an dcodeforce is still just 1 person as far as I know. I hope that DW does well financially. Hopefully DW2 will be distributed so that the production team of DW3 will have at least 5 people working on it.

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Post #: 51
RE: Where have you been hiding this game? - 10/27/2012 9:53:38 AM   
Darkspire


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Velihopea

I know Codeforce has declined steam. Well, people make mistakes an dcodeforce is still just 1 person as far as I know. I hope that DW does well financially. Hopefully DW2 will be distributed so that the production team of DW3 will have at least 5 people working on it.


Meow ...

Darkspire

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Post #: 52
RE: Where have you been hiding this game? - 10/27/2012 11:29:09 AM   
Harrs


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I found this game at spacesector.com



< Message edited by Harrs -- 10/27/2012 11:42:49 AM >

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Post #: 53
RE: Where have you been hiding this game? - 10/27/2012 2:58:51 PM   
Kayoz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bryanhbell

I don't think the context of this forum is one in which we're expected to back up any statements we make with ironclad arguments supported by studies and statistics. I think it's understood here without calling it out specifically that we're just discussing our opinions about Matrix Games' marketing strategies.

If you don't have any facts or figures, how can you discuss an opinion; much less a business one?

Also, I think Erik knows his job well enough to judge for himself whether or not Steam distribution is worthwhile. Respecting his decision is a "strong view" I do hold to.

< Message edited by Kayoz -- 10/27/2012 2:59:13 PM >


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RE: Where have you been hiding this game? - 10/27/2012 3:17:39 PM   
jpwrunyan


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I heard that matrix and steam are competitors. I got this information from my buttocks so I know the source is reliable.

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Post #: 55
RE: Where have you been hiding this game? - 10/27/2012 4:01:18 PM   
Kayoz


Posts: 1394
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jpwrunyan

I heard that matrix and steam are competitors. I got this information from my buttocks so I know the source is reliable.


"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please."
~~ Mark Twain



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RE: Where have you been hiding this game? - 10/27/2012 4:43:01 PM   
Shark7


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The only thing I can add to this discussion is this: If the game had been offered on Steam and not here at Matrix, I wouldn't be playing it.

My point being...there is always some group of potential customers you will miss despite which sales model you use. You've got people that have never heard of Matrix, and you have people like me that refuse to use Steam, etc etc etc. Basically its almost impossible to reach every potential customer...even with TV, Radio and internet advertising. Some will always fall through the cracks and be missed.

Multiple avenues can be better, but only if it helps the company, not costs it more than its worth.

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RE: Where have you been hiding this game? - 10/27/2012 8:04:00 PM   
Satosky

 

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I have no problems with the game being sold exclusively by Matrix. The main problem is the lack of advertisement I believe as the game suffers from being relatively unknown compared to most other 4X games. There are plenty of ways to advertise this game without spending money with youtube and word of mouth being perfect examples.

< Message edited by Satosky -- 10/27/2012 8:08:42 PM >

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Post #: 58
RE: Where have you been hiding this game? - 10/27/2012 10:03:56 PM   
Darkspire


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Satosky

I have no problems with the game being sold exclusively by Matrix. The main problem is the lack of advertisement I believe as the game suffers from being relatively unknown compared to most other 4X games. There are plenty of ways to advertise this game without spending money with youtube and word of mouth being perfect examples.


Youtube Codeforce needs to update its tags on the videos, the tags on there dont come up well on searches, if they filled the tags up to cover most game searches that might help a bit more.

Darkspire

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Post #: 59
RE: Where have you been hiding this game? - 10/27/2012 10:18:13 PM   
Mad Igor

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkspire
Youtube Codeforce needs to update its tags on the videos

gangnam style

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Post #: 60
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