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Nomonhan, 1939

 
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Nomonhan, 1939 - 10/23/2012 9:27:50 PM   
Empire101


Posts: 1896
Joined: 5/20/2008
From: Coruscant
Status: offline 		I am about halfway through Nomonhan, 1939 by Stuart D. Goldman, and found the book so far to be both enjoyably written and packed with info about the events leading upto and including Khalkin Gol.


Has anyone else read this great book??




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RE: Nomonhan, 1939 - 10/23/2012 9:41:25 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 6099
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		I did just after it came out. You can see why Japan did not want anything to do with an attack against Russia afterwards. There were a few hot heads in the Army who thought they could win, but not many.

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RE: Nomonhan, 1939 - 10/23/2012 10:15:12 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 11041
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Reading Guadalcanal (again) at the moment so as I'm in Japanese mode, thought I would order this from Amazon tonight. Thanks for the tip.

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RE: Nomonhan, 1939 - 10/23/2012 10:29:08 PM   
Empire101


Posts: 1896
Joined: 5/20/2008
From: Coruscant
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Reading Guadalcanal (again) at the moment so as I'm in Japanese mode, thought I would order this from Amazon tonight. Thanks for the tip.


I think you'll enjoy it!!

quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I did just after it came out. You can see why Japan did not want anything to do with an attack against Russia afterwards. There were a few hot heads in the Army who thought they could win, but not many.


Yes, they got a real trouncing.
The mindset of their victory over the Russians at Tsushima led them to believe that they could always take on the Russians and win.

Regan put it rather well......, the lopsided Japanese victory at Tsushima:...created a legend that was to haunt Japan's leaders for forty years.

Nomonhan was their first real taste of what was to come.

< Message edited by Empire101 -- 10/23/2012 10:30:07 PM >

_____________________________

Our lives may be more boring than those who lived in apocalyptic times,
but being bored is greatly preferable to being prematurely dead because of some ideological fantasy. - Michael Burleigh


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RE: Nomonhan, 1939 - 10/23/2012 10:40:55 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 6099
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		Reading this book got me interested in reading up on the various conflicts in the Far East between China, Russia, and Japan since the late 1800's. I have a book on Chiang Kai-Shek and another on the Sino-Japanese War of 1894-95 on my nightstand to read eventually. I read "Kaigun" earlier this year. IMO, these long standing conflicts are still alive and well in that part of the world. If the USA continues to down size her military, China is more than willing to fill that void in that area.

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RE: Nomonhan, 1939 - 10/23/2012 10:45:59 PM   
TulliusDetritus

 

Posts: 3810
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: Back to Reality :(
Status: offline 		If I well understood what my spies told me, this defeat convinced the Japanese Army that they better choose another "victim". In the south that is. I had also read that the Red Army was the thing the Japanese Army (again) was the thing they feared the most (after Nomonhan that is). And not without a reason, as the 1945 summer massacres showed. And the army they faced in Mongolia was nothing compared to the 1945 juggernaut...

Therefore we could say this victory protected the USSR and of course doomed the American, British, Dutch weak garrisons.

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RE: Nomonhan, 1939 - 10/23/2012 10:53:15 PM   
TulliusDetritus

 

Posts: 3810
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From: Back to Reality :(
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Reading this book got me interested in reading up on the various conflicts in the Far East between China, Russia, and Japan since the late 1800's. I have a book on Chiang Kai-Shek and another on the Sino-Japanese War of 1894-95 on my nightstand to read eventually. I read "Kaigun" earlier this year. IMO, these long standing conflicts are still alive and well in that part of the world. If the USA continues to down size her military, China is more than willing to fill that void in that area.


China will necessarily fill that gap... In a sense they are sort of like the US before WW2. Industrial giant, political power... Sooner or later they have to assert this power with a big stick, just like the US did

And both Chinese and Americans share a similar trait: both are pragmatic people.

_____________________________



"Block is very important. If you think block is useless now it's ok. If you don't like block, why don't you take it with your face...?" -- Kung Fu master

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RE: Nomonhan, 1939 - 10/23/2012 11:12:25 PM   
btbw

 

Posts: 312
Joined: 11/1/2011
Status: offline 		Problem of Nomonhan for Japan was limited action during that accident. Soviet Union had not many forces here and cannot gain it fast enough. If Japan choose full-scaled war operation like Storm over Pacific (even partial but with naval action against Kamchatka-Sakhalin-Vladivostok) then probably almost all cities will surrended. During all WW2 USSR dont have enough garrisons against Kwantung Army (especially when best forces withdrawn).

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RE: Nomonhan, 1939 - 10/23/2012 11:19:21 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25219
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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Empire101

I am about halfway through Nomonhan, 1939 by Stuart D. Goldman, and found the book so far to be both enjoyably written and packed with info about the events leading upto and including Khalkin Gol.


Has anyone else read this great book??





Yes.

Its a much friendlier and compact telling of the story for the layman historian vs. Alvin Coxx's "Nomonhan: Japan against Russia 1939". The latter is arguably the 'definitive' account of the topic but is a huge undertaking to read. Whilst I'd say it's "definitive" it's sheer level of detail can be a hindrance to a reader who's wanting to keep the big picture/overview in mind. Its easy to get lost in the myriad of details contained in Coxx's book. It holds the record for me personally for having singularly devoured the most highlighters of any work I've collected.

Goldman's was thus a nice "refresher" book on the topic.

(in reply to Empire101)
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RE: Nomonhan, 1939 - 10/25/2012 2:53:46 AM   
mike scholl 1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: btbw

Problem of Nomonhan for Japan was limited action during that accident. Soviet Union had not many forces here and cannot gain it fast enough. If Japan choose full-scaled war operation like Storm over Pacific (even partial but with naval action against Kamchatka-Sakhalin-Vladivostok) then probably almost all cities will surrended. During all WW2 USSR dont have enough garrisons against Kwantung Army (especially when best forces withdrawn).


The Red Army had many things the Japanese sorely lacked. Firepower and real armor are just two of them. The plains of Manchuria were not an ideal battleground for an infantry army like Japan's..., and a single brigade of T-34's would wipe out a Japanese Tank Division with no difficulty at all. As to what Soviet artillery would do to Japanese infantry on open ground, the less said the better.

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RE: Nomonhan, 1939 - 10/25/2012 3:11:56 AM   
btbw

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

The Red Army had many things the Japanese sorely lacked. Firepower and real armor are just two of them. The plains of Manchuria were not an ideal battleground for an infantry army like Japan's..., and a single brigade of T-34's would wipe out a Japanese Tank Division with no difficulty at all. As to what Soviet artillery would do to Japanese infantry on open ground, the less said the better.

Problem is Soviet troops on Far East dont have any T-34, only outdated tanks like T-26 and BT which not a problem for any japanese tank. Troops on Far East never was fully operational and good trained. Try imagine next thing - we all talk about supply in Burma or other region but try supply 20-30 IDs with only one railway (12 pairs of train per day).

< Message edited by btbw -- 10/25/2012 3:13:04 AM >

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RE: Nomonhan, 1939 - 10/25/2012 4:32:02 AM   
Dili

 

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Status: offline 		There wasn't T-34's in 1939, production only started in 1940.

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RE: Nomonhan, 1939 - 10/25/2012 4:33:01 AM   
bigred


Posts: 2658
Joined: 12/27/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Reading this book got me interested in reading up on the various conflicts in the Far East between China, Russia, and Japan since the late 1800's. I have a book on Chiang Kai-Shek and another on the Sino-Japanese War of 1894-95 on my nightstand to read eventually. I read "Kaigun" earlier this year. IMO, these long standing conflicts are still alive and well in that part of the world. If the USA continues to down size her military, China is more than willing to fill that void in that area.

might be a good thing for china, russia, and japan to start looking at each other, instead of looking at the USA.

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RE: Nomonhan, 1939 - 10/25/2012 8:29:45 AM   
btbw

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bigred
might be a good thing for china, russia, and japan to start looking at each other, instead of looking at the USA.

Enemies of RJW and post-revolution occupation? NEVER!

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RE: Nomonhan, 1939 - 10/26/2012 6:43:44 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 9228
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: online 		Michael recommended this book to me. I know NOTHING about this and said 'why not!' Excellent choice. This is an outstanding book that I found very readable.


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RE: Nomonhan, 1939 - 10/27/2012 10:07:24 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 11041
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Nomonhan arrived yesterday and I began it immediately. To echo some previous thoughts, I like the author's writing style - it's in no way a difficult read. Having read a lot recently about the IJN, this is a new, and really interesting subject.

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RE: Nomonhan, 1939 - 10/27/2012 2:44:22 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: btbw

quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

The Red Army had many things the Japanese sorely lacked. Firepower and real armor are just two of them. The plains of Manchuria were not an ideal battleground for an infantry army like Japan's..., and a single brigade of T-34's would wipe out a Japanese Tank Division with no difficulty at all. As to what Soviet artillery would do to Japanese infantry on open ground, the less said the better.


Problem is Soviet troops on Far East dont have any T-34, only outdated tanks like T-26 and BT which not a problem for any japanese tank. Troops on Far East never was fully operational and good trained. Try imagine next thing - we all talk about supply in Burma or other region but try supply 20-30 IDs with only one railway (12 pairs of train per day).


So those thirty Divisions of "Crack Siberian Troops" that saved the day in front of Moscow in December of 1941 were "not operational or fully trained"? And couldn't be carried or supplied by the Trans-Siberian RR? Guess the Russians must have cheated in real life....

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Post #: 17
RE: Nomonhan, 1939 - 10/27/2012 5:54:08 PM   
btbw

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

So those thirty Divisions of "Crack Siberian Troops" that saved the day in front of Moscow in December of 1941 were "not operational or fully trained"? And couldn't be carried or supplied by the Trans-Siberian RR? Guess the Russians must have cheated in real life....


I mean troops which stay still on Far East. In autumn USSR withdraw some elite and well trained divisions which all called "siberians". It was best troops which Stalin had here. Reason why this troops can be withdraw was fault of Axis intelligence so Moscow got information about japanese plan dont start war against Soviet Union.
Myth about crack siberian troop only myth. Despite on real help which allow to use this troops as reinforcements in very hard situation like defense of Moscow, this troops shown as very strong and well equipped. Nazi start it when meet troubles with blitzkrieg, Soviets always write much more then in really.
For example how good equipment was
376 ID, formed in Kuzbass, August 1941
End formation and start strategic movement on West in November 10
Arrived to Vologda in November 22
Had 80% officers, 69% unterofficers, 90% soldiers.
"Well equipped" with 9% rifles, 3% pistols, 4% MGs, 7% 50mm mortars, 2% 82mm mortars. No auto and tanks.
Reequipped in December 24 - 100% rifles, 80% MGs, all other same numbers.
December 29-30 ID start assault as part of 59 Army. One of regiment in first battle lost 80% of personnel cuz dont have heavy weapon and supply (even food)...


< Message edited by btbw -- 10/27/2012 6:13:59 PM >

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RE: Nomonhan, 1939 - 10/27/2012 9:16:28 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

Posts: 1177
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quote:

ORIGINAL: btbw

quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

So those thirty Divisions of "Crack Siberian Troops" that saved the day in front of Moscow in December of 1941 were "not operational or fully trained"? And couldn't be carried or supplied by the Trans-Siberian RR? Guess the Russians must have cheated in real life....


Myth about crack siberian troop only myth. Despite on real help which allow to use this troops as reinforcements in very hard situation like defense of Moscow, this troops shown as very strong and well equipped. Nazi start it when meet troubles with blitzkrieg, Soviets always write much more then in really.


So three Panzer Armies and two Infantry Armies were defeated and driven back by a few troops of untrained, unequiped Boy Scouts? Yeah..., Right!

(in reply to btbw)
Post #: 19
RE: Nomonhan, 1939 - 10/27/2012 10:53:38 PM   
TulliusDetritus

 

Posts: 3810
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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: btbw

quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

So those thirty Divisions of "Crack Siberian Troops" that saved the day in front of Moscow in December of 1941 were "not operational or fully trained"? And couldn't be carried or supplied by the Trans-Siberian RR? Guess the Russians must have cheated in real life....


Myth about crack siberian troop only myth. Despite on real help which allow to use this troops as reinforcements in very hard situation like defense of Moscow, this troops shown as very strong and well equipped. Nazi start it when meet troubles with blitzkrieg, Soviets always write much more then in really.


So three Panzer Armies and two Infantry Armies were defeated and driven back by a few troops of untrained, unequiped Boy Scouts? Yeah..., Right!



Mike, btbw is basically correct

These "Siberians" (not really Siberians, but from the Urals, Far East and Siberia too) were not special, elite troops. They were simply strategic reserves that Stavka could deploy near Moscow to deliver the winter blow (when they understood a Japanese attack was unlikely). Which they did.

The attrited and exhausted Germans (before General Winter had arrived 900.000 casualties had been inflicted on the Wehrmacht, losses which they could not afford) along with a lack of preparation (the Russian winter, but hey, the Soviets were supposed to collapse before Christmas ) did the rest.

But yes, these Siberians thing is basically a myth. It's more about the huge strategic reserves the Stavka had at its disposal. And which they put to good use

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RE: Nomonhan, 1939 - 10/27/2012 11:54:52 PM   
btbw

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1
So three Panzer Armies and two Infantry Armies were defeated and driven back by a few troops of untrained, unequiped Boy Scouts? Yeah..., Right!


Sometimes even small numbers can drive back enemy. Learn about Brest Fortress.
P.S. Use of reserves was not good of course, but enough for stop wermaht near Moscow.


< Message edited by btbw -- 10/28/2012 12:10:39 AM >

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