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RE: OT: Who is to blame for the failure to anticipate the Pearl Harbor attack?

 
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RE: OT: Who is to blame for the failure to anticipate t... - 10/24/2012 10:22:19 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slinkytwf


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

My view is different. The leadership of the United States quite clearly understood the strategic situation vis-a-vis Japan. They underestimated Japanese skill and daring, but were completely correct about the outcome of a war. It was the Japanese that disasterously misjudged their opponents.

The lives and ships lost at Pearl Harbor were the tiniest downpayment on what the war would bring. In the grand sweep of history, why should one care who was responsible for the lack of preparedness of the defenses at Pearl Harbor? The much more important question is why the leadership of Japan miscalculated so tragically for their people.


Saburo Ienaga went into this in detail. Earlier, a posted mentioned that the US had underestimated the Japanese because of an underlying current of racism, but the reverse was also true. According to Ienaga, ever since the Meiji Restoration, much of the Japanese population, especially the military, had been propandized into believing in their own cultural and racial superiority, and the hubris it inspired in the military junta's minds led them to think that we'd just roll over after getting our nose bloodied.



When a society feels that suicide is very often the only redress for a insult or injustice, is it surprising that a extremely dangerous (not that far removed from Russian roulette) action might be acceptable? I certainly can accept that a society that treasures the 47 Ronin taking that sort of action.

The USA on the other hand might instead of sending a "Crack Suicide squad" ("There! That will show them!) , might adopt the the war cry "Sue the bastards!". Sorry for being irreverent for a moment. Just channeling "The Life of Brian".

_____________________________

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Post #: 31
RE: OT: Who is to blame for the failure to anticipate t... - 10/24/2012 11:35:45 PM   
WO Katsuki

 

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as a japanese i have some opinions, but they would not be popular here

is there censorship? or can i answer freely

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Post #: 32
RE: OT: Who is to blame for the failure to anticipate t... - 10/24/2012 11:42:43 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WO Katsuki


as a japanese i have some opinions, but they would not be popular here

is there censorship? or can i answer freely



You can always answer freely. And the rules still apply. Profanity WILL be censored. And management doesn't like personal attacks. I for one, would be VERY interested in your opinions.

_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

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Post #: 33
RE: OT: Who is to blame for the failure to anticipate t... - 10/24/2012 11:45:02 PM   
spence

 

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I think so long as you don't get into current politics too deeply your perspective would be greatly appreciated.

Personally I don't think the military leaders in Japan gave the slightest thought to benefit of the general population of Japan. The society had not evolved beyond the point where the general population was viewed as serfs whose purpose in life was to provide for the benefit of the leadership.

(in reply to WO Katsuki)
Post #: 34
RE: OT: Who is to blame for the failure to anticipate t... - 10/24/2012 11:54:26 PM   
slinkytwf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WO Katsuki

as a japanese i have some opinions, but they would not be popular here

is there censorship? or can i answer freely


Onegai shimasu!

I for one would love to hear your opinions. That's why I mentioned a couple of the Japanese historians I had read who had written on the subject. They are frequently overlooked in American discussions of the era and had much to add to our collective understanding.

Arigato gozaimasu.

(in reply to WO Katsuki)
Post #: 35
RE: OT: Who is to blame for the failure to anticipate t... - 10/24/2012 11:56:41 PM   
WO Katsuki

 

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i think the oil embargo was a scheme to trick the U.S. to fight hitler

both our peoples were stupid, we wasted many lives in 4 years

and spent the next 40 years together against the communists

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Post #: 36
RE: OT: Who is to blame for the failure to anticipate t... - 10/25/2012 12:04:38 AM   
slinkytwf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WO Katsuki
i think the oil embargo was a scheme to trick the U.S. to fight hitler

both our peoples were stupid, we wasted many lives in 4 years

and spent the next 40 years together against the communists


Possibly, however, it was a direct response to Japan occupying the southern part of Vichy Indochina. From what I've read, I think that had more to do with it than the European issue. I've not seen any documentary evidence to prove that it was designed to accelerate the US entry into the European conflict. The Pan-American Neutrality Declaration had a more direct effect.

I agree with you that it was stupid. I also think the same thing could be said of most conflicts in human history.

I'm also glad that our countries are now allies and that the war ended up connecting us in ways that never would have happened without those horribly tragic events.

Thank you for sharing your perspective.

(in reply to WO Katsuki)
Post #: 37
RE: OT: Who is to blame for the failure to anticipate t... - 10/25/2012 12:21:31 AM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

Well several people anticipated Pearl Harbor ...


Col. Billy Mitchell for one, and after the Army can'd him, the US apologized to Japan.

Today that sounds all too familiar.

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Post #: 38
RE: OT: Who is to blame for the failure to anticipate t... - 10/25/2012 1:16:07 AM   
Cribtop


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Based on some reading on the run up to war, while there was hubris on the Japanese side, there was also an intentional acceptance of a potentially nation-wrecking defeat because the alternative of backing down in China was deemed an unacceptable loss of both face and geopolitical position. A "bet the company" move, so to speak.

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Post #: 39
RE: OT: Who is to blame for the failure to anticipate t... - 10/25/2012 1:25:53 AM   
slinkytwf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

Well several people anticipated Pearl Harbor ...


Col. Billy Mitchell for one, and after the Army can'd him, the US apologized to Japan.

Today that sounds all too familiar.


I have to disagree with you on this statement, as I do not see that it is adequately supported by historical fact.

Mitchell's comment was not the reason he was drummed out of the Army, nor was it an accurate prediction of what came to be the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.

Mitchell speculated that, "Japan may unleash a war in the Pacific. She could attack [NB] America by striking first at Hawaii, some fine Sunday morning." Mitchell was talking about an attack on America, not on the US Navy. It was clearly implied from his language that he meant they could use Hawaii as a springboard. The US Pacific Fleet was not rebased to Pearl Harbor until the summer of 1940. Even then, the possibility of an attack wasn't ignored. In 1933, the War Department staged an attack exercise against the base (which succeeded, and which resulted in the defenses being substantially upgraded over the next decade).

Mitchell was court-martialed for insubordination in 1925, and it was not over his Hawaii comment. In 1925, Japan had not yet begun their second wave of imperial expansion (began in 1931), and its mention was likely because Japan was the only other Industrial nation in the Pacific Rim and a natural competitor, given the US conquest of the Philippines (before the Russo-Japanese War in 1903). It was over his taking his spat with the War Department over their building more battleships instead of aircraft, a conflict that had raged for several years, despite Mitchell proving to them that aircraft were destined to play a critical role in future warfare. (Ironically, MacArthur sat on the panel.)

That being said, Mitchell's treatment was clearly short-sighted, counter-productive, ego-driven, and typical of what comes whenever someone challenges an established bureucracy backed by economic interests vested in building more battleships.

On the question of an apology being issued to Japan over his comments, I cannot find any reference to it, but I'm having to rely on the Internet for my search, an inadequate tool for accurate research. Where did you find that historical fact lying about?

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 40
RE: OT: Who is to blame for the failure to anticipate t... - 10/25/2012 2:15:21 AM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slinkytwf


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

Well several people anticipated Pearl Harbor ...


Col. Billy Mitchell for one, and after the Army can'd him, the US apologized to Japan.

Today that sounds all too familiar.


I have to disagree with you on this statement, as I do not see that it is adequately supported by historical fact.

Mitchell's comment was not the reason he was drummed out of the Army, nor was it an accurate prediction of what came to be the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.

Mitchell speculated that, "Japan may unleash a war in the Pacific. She could attack [NB] America by striking first at Hawaii, some fine Sunday morning." Mitchell was talking about an attack on America, not on the US Navy. It was clearly implied from his language that he meant they could use Hawaii as a springboard. The US Pacific Fleet was not rebased to Pearl Harbor until the summer of 1940. Even then, the possibility of an attack wasn't ignored. In 1933, the War Department staged an attack exercise against the base (which succeeded, and which resulted in the defenses being substantially upgraded over the next decade).

Mitchell was court-martialed for insubordination in 1925, and it was not over his Hawaii comment. In 1925, Japan had not yet begun their second wave of imperial expansion (began in 1931), and its mention was likely because Japan was the only other Industrial nation in the Pacific Rim and a natural competitor, given the US conquest of the Philippines (before the Russo-Japanese War in 1903). It was over his taking his spat with the War Department over their building more battleships instead of aircraft, a conflict that had raged for several years, despite Mitchell proving to them that aircraft were destined to play a critical role in future warfare. (Ironically, MacArthur sat on the panel.)

That being said, Mitchell's treatment was clearly short-sighted, counter-productive, ego-driven, and typical of what comes whenever someone challenges an established bureucracy backed by economic interests vested in building more battleships.

On the question of an apology being issued to Japan over his comments, I cannot find any reference to it, but I'm having to rely on the Internet for my search, an inadequate tool for accurate research. Where did you find that historical fact lying about?



And lets not forget that Mitchell also said that carrier based aircraft would always be inferiour to landbased (due to excess weight) and that because a carrier contained fuel and bombs within a narrow hull, it would be a floating bomb, so carriers are a waste of money and ineffectual. Yeah, he really nailed that one. He was absolutely right , wasn't he, about the Japanese bombing PH with land based aircraft? And of course carriers are a waste and always have been , haven't they? Like a lot of "prophets" , he was right about 20% of the time. People tend to forget about the other 80%. Read his book Winged Victory. Judge for yourself.

_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

(in reply to slinkytwf)
Post #: 41
RE: OT: Who is to blame for the failure to anticipate t... - 10/25/2012 2:21:30 AM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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if someone invented the CIWS rotary barrel autocannon, by about 1940

then all types of AC would be useless

and Yamato would have ruled the waves

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Post #: 42
RE: OT: Who is to blame for the failure to anticipate t... - 10/25/2012 2:25:04 AM   
Dili

 

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quote:

They had one - the aircraft were caught on radar

quote:

Yes , but the US RADAR program was in it's infancy. The British had given the US a thyrotrone less than a year before. In many respects the US RADAR program was no less great an enterprise then the Mahattan project.


Early warning for me doesn't mean Radar, looking at doctrine/commanders/technological level of USNavy/Army at time.

Was thinking of Picket ships, either civilian like trawler with navy crew or even an old destroyer plus submarines and patrol aircraft.



quote:

why should one care who was responsible for the lack of preparedness of the defenses at Pearl Harbor?


Besides the defeat, deaths and what could represent such lackadaisical cultural attitude in future, also it represented 6 months or more of Japanese free ride in Pacific.

(in reply to slinkytwf)
Post #: 43
RE: OT: Who is to blame for the failure to anticipate t... - 10/25/2012 2:40:00 AM   
slinkytwf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
And lets not forget that Mitchell also said that carrier based aircraft would always be inferiour to landbased (due to excess weight) and that because a carrier contained fuel and bombs within a narrow hull, it would be a floating bomb, so carriers are a waste of money and ineffectual. Yeah, he really nailed that one. He was absolutely right , wasn't he, about the Japanese bombing PH with land based aircraft? And of course carriers are a waste and always have been , haven't they? Like a lot of "prophets" , he was right about 20% of the time. People tend to forget about the other 80%. Read his book Winged Victory. Judge for yourself.


Many of the predictions I read while researching my response provoked a, "Well, Duh!" (Like "England might be vulnerable to massive air attack." Duh, Zeppelins.) But I wasn't out to deconstruct him. Over the years, I've come across a lot of conventional wisdom historical vignettes that were patently untrue, but still withstood the test of time, particulary when used rhetorically, and in this instance, I just wanted to fact-check the assertion given its association with more recent events.

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Post #: 44
RE: OT: Who is to blame for the failure to anticipate t... - 10/25/2012 2:41:47 AM   
mike scholl 1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace
My view is different. The leadership of the United States quite clearly understood the strategic situation vis-a-vis Japan. They underestimated Japanese skill and daring, but were completely correct about the outcome of a war. It was the Japanese that disasterously misjudged their opponents.

The lives and ships lost at Pearl Harbor were the tiniest downpayment on what the war would bring. In the grand sweep of history, why should one care who was responsible for the lack of preparedness of the defenses at Pearl Harbor? The much more important question is why the leadership of Japan miscalculated so tragically for their people.


I think "Ace" is exactly right. Neither side was capable of understanding the thinking of the other. The US took one look at the comparitive economic strengths and concluded that the Japanese would have to be crazy to attack America. The material differences were just to great to overcome.

The Japanese saw the potential conteest in terms of morale. Americans were weak and concerned with material things. They were tough and dedicated and willing to sacrifice..., and would "win" based on moral superiority. In American terms, they WERE "crazy". Unfortunately for the Japanese, they were also dead wrong.

(in reply to Wirraway_Ace)
Post #: 45
RE: OT: Who is to blame for the failure to anticipate t... - 10/25/2012 2:58:12 AM   
JeffK


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Some interesting thoughts:

As we can never be moved back to late 1941 we can never know exactly what went through peoples minds at the time.

The US should have been more ready, but against what threat?

A lot of the intel they got was leading to an attack on Malaya/DEI.

This should have also put DD on the Philipines on alert, even a 4 week start on preperation MIGHT have helped, a bit.

Playing with intel, after you know the result, isnt fair on those sifting through it in real time. In addition the opinions of what is possible often sways the way intel is read, I am sure those following WMD believed that is what the intel showed.

As I have said before, only Japan is to blame for PH, many others have responsibilities for how it affected everyone.

I have little to complain about the way Japan opened the war, only in the way they prosecuted it.

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Post #: 46
RE: OT: Who is to blame for the failure to anticipate t... - 10/25/2012 4:41:59 AM   
guytipton41


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

I have little to complain about the way Japan opened the war, only in the way they prosecuted it.


+1

Pearl Harbor was brilliant! Asking who was to blame is like asking why the Australian Olympic basketball team lost to the US Olympic team. The IJN brought their A-game.

If only the rest of the IJN/IJA actions during the war had been to the moral standard that they held themselves to during the Russo-Japanese war. I don't ignore Allied actions but see them as reaction for the most part.

Cheers,
Guy

(in reply to JeffK)
Post #: 47
RE: OT: Who is to blame for the failure to anticipate t... - 10/25/2012 4:42:24 AM   
crsutton


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It was just inertia. As the title goes a whole nation at sleep. Under the circumstances it probably could not be avoided. Like so many of the events of WWII the great depression probably takes the biggest blame. All over the world it was an event that ruptured societies and set up barriers to rational thought. The US was contemplating it's own navel at the time, and as a collective whole was not paying attention. Some enlightened Americans were screaming warnings but the National mood to listen to reason was just not there.

And you have to factor in a lot of good luck on the Japanese side. It was an excellent, extremely risky plan that worked.

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Post #: 48
RE: OT: Who is to blame for the failure to anticipate t... - 10/25/2012 5:27:25 AM   
slinkytwf


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One additional thing not to be overlooked is the reaction of the carrier commanders. Halsey was on alert, and his rules of engagement were that if they encountered Japanese naval forces, they were to assume they were hostile. Enterprise was ferrying a squadron of Wildcats to Wake, to beef their defenses up against possible invasion.

Morison talks about this clearly, even euphemistically, in his official USN history.

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 49
RE: OT: Who is to blame for the failure to anticipate t... - 10/25/2012 7:54:57 AM   
CaptDave

 

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Back to the original question: Combined Fleet Decoded, by John Prados, discusses the intelligence effort throughout the entire war. My copy is packed away so I can't double-check, but I believe there is significant pre-war discussion included.

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RE: OT: Who is to blame for the failure to anticipate t... - 10/25/2012 12:19:51 PM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slinkytwf


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

Well several people anticipated Pearl Harbor ...


Col. Billy Mitchell for one, and after the Army can'd him, the US apologized to Japan.

Today that sounds all too familiar.


I have to disagree with you on this statement, as I do not see that it is adequately supported by historical fact.

Mitchell's comment was not the reason he was drummed out of the Army, nor was it an accurate prediction of what came to be the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.

Mitchell speculated that, "Japan may unleash a war in the Pacific. She could attack [NB] America by striking first at Hawaii, some fine Sunday morning." Mitchell was talking about an attack on America ...


Hawaii wasn't yet a state, but his prediction seemed accurate enough, and I'm sure his remarks about Japan proved an embarrassment for the State Dept., which didn't help his insubordination defense.


_____________________________

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Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to slinkytwf)
Post #: 51
RE: OT: Who is to blame for the failure to anticipate t... - 10/25/2012 12:22:51 PM   
Joe D.


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From: Stratford, Connecticut
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: slinkytwf


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

Well several people anticipated Pearl Harbor ...


Col. Billy Mitchell for one, and after the Army can'd him, the US apologized to Japan.

Today that sounds all too familiar.


I have to disagree with you on this statement, as I do not see that it is adequately supported by historical fact.

Mitchell's comment was not the reason he was drummed out of the Army, nor was it an accurate prediction of what came to be the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.

Mitchell speculated that, "Japan may unleash a war in the Pacific. She could attack [NB] America by striking first at Hawaii, some fine Sunday morning." Mitchell was talking about an attack on America, not on the US Navy. It was clearly implied from his language that he meant they could use Hawaii as a springboard. The US Pacific Fleet was not rebased to Pearl Harbor until the summer of 1940. Even then, the possibility of an attack wasn't ignored. In 1933, the War Department staged an attack exercise against the base (which succeeded, and which resulted in the defenses being substantially upgraded over the next decade).

Mitchell was court-martialed for insubordination in 1925, and it was not over his Hawaii comment. In 1925, Japan had not yet begun their second wave of imperial expansion (began in 1931), and its mention was likely because Japan was the only other Industrial nation in the Pacific Rim and a natural competitor, given the US conquest of the Philippines (before the Russo-Japanese War in 1903). It was over his taking his spat with the War Department over their building more battleships instead of aircraft, a conflict that had raged for several years, despite Mitchell proving to them that aircraft were destined to play a critical role in future warfare. (Ironically, MacArthur sat on the panel.)

That being said, Mitchell's treatment was clearly short-sighted, counter-productive, ego-driven, and typical of what comes whenever someone challenges an established bureucracy backed by economic interests vested in building more battleships.

On the question of an apology being issued to Japan over his comments, I cannot find any reference to it, but I'm having to rely on the Internet for my search, an inadequate tool for accurate research. Where did you find that historical fact lying about?



And lets not forget that Mitchell also said that carrier based aircraft would always be inferiour to landbased (due to excess weight) and that because a carrier contained fuel and bombs within a narrow hull, it would be a floating bomb ...


CVs are floating bombs, or as some sailor once said, "A heavyweight boxer with a glass jaw".

_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 52
RE: OT: Who is to blame for the failure to anticipate t... - 10/25/2012 4:34:37 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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too many with hindsight


lets see what happens if any one of these were invented during 1930s

a) CIWS rotary barrel 20mm AA guns, render torpedo / dive AC obsolete
b) reactive armor torpedo bulge, destroyer torpedoes obsolete
c) proximity fuse depth charge , submarines obsolete

now the battleship controls the seas, and probably the old BB can be retrofitted with some of these advancements

the nation that abandoned the BB, and built only carriers is helpless
the nation that built submarines, has a not a wolf pack, but a cattle pack

the nations did exactly what was correct

1) develop ALL of the different weapon systems (CV / BB / DD / SS)

2) shift production towards that weapon system that proves itself superior during wartime






_____________________________

"No Enemy Survives Contact with the Plan" - Commander Stormwolf

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Post #: 53
RE: OT: Who is to blame for the failure to anticipate t... - 10/25/2012 5:27:01 PM   
Wirraway_Ace


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

quote:

why should one care who was responsible for the lack of preparedness of the defenses at Pearl Harbor?


Besides the defeat, deaths and what could represent such lackadaisical cultural attitude in future, also it represented 6 months or more of Japanese free ride in Pacific.


Dili,
my point was too much emphasis has been placed on the lack of preparedness at PH. December 8th (across the dateline) began a cascade of events that led to much greater defeat and dealth in Malaya and the Philippines where there was a great deal more evidence of what was coming.

I cannot make a logical connection between the damage done to the Pacific Fleet on the morning of December 7th to the strategic initiative the Japanese held in the Pacific for approximately six months. The damage done to the 22 knot BBs and a small number of other ships was, as far as I can see, irrelevant to the ability of the USN to take back the initiative. Some argue that it actually freed the USN from any lingering debate about CVs versus BBs.

Mike

(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 54
RE: OT: Who is to blame for the failure to anticipate t... - 10/25/2012 5:43:14 PM   
Dili

 

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quote:

The damage done to the 22 knot BBs and a small number of other ships was, as far as I can see, irrelevant to the ability of the USN to take back the initiative.


Right. But the Japanese thought it was important and it was a success so it is not a stretch to think that Japanese would be less bold with a disappointment at Pearl Harbor. For start would mean more Japanese forces diverted to cover the Pacific.
Maybe the raid in Indian Ocean wouldn't be made.

(in reply to Wirraway_Ace)
Post #: 55
RE: OT: Who is to blame for the failure to anticipate t... - 11/30/2012 2:08:13 AM   
Nalamin

 

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A very interesting discussion. On the U.S.A. side pretty much everyone was complacent for many reasons...from FDR right down to average citizens.

A more interesting question is what if the Japanese had truly understood us and just ignored HI and PI and went straight for the British and NE colonies to the south? Would the US Senate have voted a DOW to defend the colonies of other powers? I can hear the arguments now.

I think it is very likely that we would have done nothing but complain diplomatically and would have very quickly been facing a fait accompli.

(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 56
RE: OT: Who is to blame for the failure to anticipate t... - 11/30/2012 6:28:35 AM   
SimHq Tom Cofield

 

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From: Ft. Lewis Washington
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Who is to blame for the attack? To be honest, trying to assign blame for the Pearl Harbor attack is like trying to assign blame for the 9-11 attacks. There were a lot of warning signals that were overlooked by a lot of people, mistakes made at both the strategic and tactical level but that is the way things always go. It is like listening to something that sounds like gunfire. If you hear the pop pop pop in your neighborhood you may initially think gunfire but afterward you will rationalize what you are seeing into something else.

Ultimately, if blame has to be placed, it has to be placed in the laps of the Imperial Japanese Government. They decided to attack the United States, Great Britain, the Netherlands and so on. They decided to sail from the Home Islands to Hawaii with the express intent of waging war on the United States. Whether they felt some justification or not, and whether they intended to or not, they proceded to attack the Allied powers without properly declaring war. This wasn't like WW1, where a series of actions took place that ended up dragging all the parties into the conflict; this was a planned out, intentional attack to gain territory and dislodge US, British and Dutch interests out of areas that the Japanese felt they were 'entitled' to. Even if the US had every fighter plane aloft before the attack it wouldn't have altered this plan one bit. In fact, a 'ready' US probably would have lost half of her fleet in the first big battle, not just two BBs.


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(in reply to slinkytwf)
Post #: 57
RE: OT: Who is to blame for the failure to anticipate t... - 11/30/2012 9:53:41 AM   
jmalter

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CaptDave
Back to the original question: Combined Fleet Decoded, by John Prados, discusses the intelligence effort throughout the entire war. My copy is packed away so I can't double-check, but I believe there is significant pre-war discussion included.

i'm currently re-reading this book, & again i'm favorably impressed by Prados' research & narrative skill. i like the way he begins the story, w/ anecdotes of a few USN officers who were present at the 1923 Tokyo earthquake. a very few USN officers were posted to Japan, specifically to learn the language. their numbers gradually increased during the 30's, & language-trained officers became naval attaches in Japan, gathering what intel they could. when war broke out, their language skills were at a premium, & many of them became essential cogs in the overall intelligence scheme - working at shore & ship-based radio-intel & prisoner-interrogation detachments, or setting up USA-based language schools in conjunction w/ American universities.

(in reply to CaptDave)
Post #: 58
RE: OT: Who is to blame for the failure to anticipate t... - 11/30/2012 2:36:54 PM   
ilovestrategy


Posts: 3628
Joined: 6/11/2005
From: San Diego
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

quote:

ORIGINAL: CaptDave
Back to the original question: Combined Fleet Decoded, by John Prados, discusses the intelligence effort throughout the entire war. My copy is packed away so I can't double-check, but I believe there is significant pre-war discussion included.

i'm currently re-reading this book, & again i'm favorably impressed by Prados' research & narrative skill. i like the way he begins the story, w/ anecdotes of a few USN officers who were present at the 1923 Tokyo earthquake. a very few USN officers were posted to Japan, specifically to learn the language. their numbers gradually increased during the 30's, & language-trained officers became naval attaches in Japan, gathering what intel they could. when war broke out, their language skills were at a premium, & many of them became essential cogs in the overall intelligence scheme - working at shore & ship-based radio-intel & prisoner-interrogation detachments, or setting up USA-based language schools in conjunction w/ American universities.



I always wondered how we had Japanese speaking people in intelligence before WW2 started.

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(in reply to jmalter)
Post #: 59
RE: OT: Who is to blame for the failure to anticipate t... - 11/30/2012 2:51:38 PM   
ilovestrategy


Posts: 3628
Joined: 6/11/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: guytipton41

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

I have little to complain about the way Japan opened the war, only in the way they prosecuted it.


+1

Pearl Harbor was brilliant! Asking who was to blame is like asking why the Australian Olympic basketball team lost to the US Olympic team. The IJN brought their A-game.

If only the rest of the IJN/IJA actions during the war had been to the moral standard that they held themselves to during the Russo-Japanese war. I don't ignore Allied actions but see them as reaction for the most part.

Cheers,
Guy


Maybe on a tactical level it was brilliant but IMHO, it was a colossal strategic blunder. The Americans viewed it as a sneak attack. With the Germans it was just business that we had to do, but the Japanese became public enemy number one.

A couple of years ago Terminus called Japan in 1941 a 3rd world country with 1st world ambitions, and I think that is pretty accurate.


Edited because of my poor one finger typing skills.......

< Message edited by ilovestrategy -- 11/30/2012 2:52:40 PM >


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Post #: 60
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