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The new noraml for 1.06.13+

 
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The new noraml for 1.06.13+ - 10/22/2012 8:50:20 PM   
Pelton

 

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1. SHC losses under 2.5 million.
2. Moscow has yet to fall in a single AAR and there are over 2 dozen AAR threads posted 1.06.13+ now. So this is basicly set in stone.
3. Leningrad holding 50% of the time. Some guys hold it everytime.
4. Blizzard beat downs. Because in most cases the SHC takes less then 2.5 million in losses by Dec 1st the SHC OOB is at 5 million+. If GHC doesn't run they will get completely smoked.
5. Industry is as we all know window dressing and means zip, not really even worth talking about any more other then manpower centers.

This is the current condition of the game. I am talking about games started after 1.06.13 was released. There are a few games on going that started long before its release.

The up side to this is most SHC players checker board the south and load up north of Tula.
This hands the south to GHC which is and always has been the sweet spot as far as manpower centers go.
This new tactic makes farming morale very very easy and at a very very low cost in manpower to GHC.

In many cases now the GHC comes out of blizzard with more manpower if your able to get through the blizzard safely.

My personal strategy now is to:

1941

1. Over run as many manpower centers as possible.
2. Farm morale, infantry being the key.
3. Survive blizzard. This is different for each opponent. Pull 9 best infantry and put 12 or so panzer units in citys close to front. Withdraw atleast 2 hexes a turn starting last turn of snow.

1942

4. Pocket 2000 pt worth of AP after Nov 41 to end of 42.
5. Keep farming morale.
6. Reover run manpower centers and then some more in 42.
7. Stay on the offensive as long as possible with 3.6 million men in OOB being the cut-off point.
8. Get SHC OOB down to 6 million at some pt late in 42.

1943

9. Static mode 300 AP worth of German infantry divisions, this will save 10k men a turn.
10. Change over to reserve mode, this will make it very hard for SHC to do much of anything in 1943.
11. Main goal is keeping lines static and causing enough losses to keep SHC OOB from growing and GHC OOB growing.
12. Keep farming morale where possible, if by the end of 43 GHC OOB is at 4 million and morale is still high in infantry, its in the bag other then playing it out no matter how many men are in SHC OOB. But if things have been going right it be 6-7 million.

1944 just ride it out.








_____________________________

GHC
23 - 4 - 8

16 games ended in 41 (16-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk
Post #: 1
RE: The new noraml for 1.06.13+ - 10/22/2012 9:52:48 PM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1436
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Dunno why you're still bothering to play. Every single iteration of the game, Soviets get stuff to keep Germany from getting anything more than they did historically in 1941, while also enabling the Soviet to have many more cohesive Fronts than were possible given their doctrine and experience.

The whole game is a sh!tshow, and we all should have walked away when we realized that Billings thinks it's right and proper to remove divisions that surrendered at Stalingrad irrespective of Stalingrad happening. If that doesn't tell you who he's in the bag for, then you're a Soviet fanboy.

This game is a Soviet 'what if' exercise, and nothing at all more.
It was complicated enough to get a pass for two years, with grognards mistaking detail for balance.
The playtesters were all Soviet fanboys from Europe who wanted nothing more than to stomp Germany into the ground, no matter how unrealistic the mechanics that get them there.

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 2
RE: The new noraml for 1.06.13+ - 10/23/2012 2:30:51 PM   
rrbill

 

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Complliments @Pelton for a quantified strategic plan.

@helio's criticism, IMO play balance efforts by developers keep things interesting. Nothing's perfect, though. Some examples:

German logistics, transportation breakdown 41 Blitzkrieg;
2nd front effects (that's where Stalingrad forces are needed;)
Dumb O.K.H, STAVKA actions;
Soviet's inferior tactics throughout.

Cannot believe there was a way to defeat Soviets after 41 Blitzkrieg failed, short of Soviet political revolution. History.

Issue is can the gamers do what's needed w/o artifices? A challenge.

German fanboys from Disneyworld seem to want nothing more than vindication of fantasy.






< Message edited by rrbill -- 10/23/2012 2:33:56 PM >

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 3
RE: The new noraml for 1.06.13+ - 10/23/2012 4:00:11 PM   
vandev

 

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I would like to suggest a variant of the axis 41 strategy that may be able to hurt an aware competent soviet player. Lets assume that the south is going to end up as a large space for time play by the soviets. No matter how many troops are added to the axis southern drive, if the soviet is willing to trade land for space he can preserve his army. Axis response is to add no reinforcements for the south and eventually to remove much of the artillery and all the engineer su's from the south for use elsewhere. Take all the population centers on offer.

The key to the axis summer drive is soviet attrition, not encirclement. Every unit on every front will attempt to participate in a deliberate assualt every turn. This most definitely includes panzers. Encirlcements will eventually be a result of attrition not a primary cause. The goal is to beat down every 3 str inf div and every arm div to str 1 ants.

In the north, concentrate the 18, pz1 and 1/2 of 16th army between the middle of the luga and narvogrod. The goal is to have at least 6 stacks of inf and 2 3stacks of panzers fully supported by engineers and artillery pounding away as early as possible. The goal is to force the soviet to use recenlty routed units in the front line, as this means more routes and more casualties. Eventually, the soviet will break. However, if the north is the only place this is happening, the soviet will be able to take the pounding.

The center is the key. All original (5) panzer corp stay in the center. The landbridge is attacked on turn 2 and you never ever let up. If a panzer unit has 21 mps, that means you can move 3 hexes and make a deliberate attack. You do not care about terrain or really anything, the goal is to get a deliberate attack using as many of your units as possible. There is no flank protection. Flanks are places that single or double stacked german inf can launch deliberate attacks. Again, the strategy for every turn is to maximize the amount of german units participating in deliberate attacks.

The end goal of this stratetgy is a soviet army made up of exhausted strength 1 and 2 units. Soviet stacks of 3 units whose cv is 3, 4 or 5 are ripe to be rounted, no matter what fortification level or terrain. The challenge for the axis is very active su management so artillery and engineers are in the right place at the right time. If 4 to 5 engineers are in a deliberate attack level 2 and even level 3 forts simply melt away as if they are not there. Since soviets will fight for leningrad and moscow, axis forces will be able to make these attacks.

I will post an AAR of a game I am in right now. It is turn 16. Leningrad fell around turn 10 and Moscow was isolated at the end of the german turn 16. 2.9 million soviet casualties with atleast 200k in pockets at end of axis turn 16. Outside of pockets there are maybe 2 or 3 soviet inf div with a strength of 3, there are 30 to 40 routed units. In the south the soviet has completely dominated the axis by giving ground as needed and stiffening where possible. While I do not believe I have won, the soviet has been hurt, his army bled and there is still 1 more clear and 3 snow turns left before blizzard. The soviet army size is 4.1mm. This has not been done with dashing encirclements but rather blunt, staightforward bashing with artillery, engineers and the luftwaffe in support. Axis forces were concentrated, flanks ignored for the most part. And the rule every turn was to try to get every unit to participate in a deliberate assualt every turn. Every unit meant every panzer too. Unrelenting pressure through deliberate attacks can reduce the soviet army. If the soviet does not allow pockets, then don't try for them just do a straight ahead boring beat down. Applied without mercy and everywhere you can, it is an effective strategy.

vandev

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 4
RE: The new noraml for 1.06.13+ - 10/23/2012 4:21:18 PM   
76mm


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I'm surprised to see that some German players think that encirclements are not the key to 1941, as a Sov player I am much more worried about encirclements than attrition.

And maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how Sov players can "not allow pockets"; against an aggressive German player a Sov player does not have much choice about it...

(in reply to vandev)
Post #: 5
RE: The new noraml for 1.06.13+ - 10/23/2012 4:35:25 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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Bloody hell, Pelton, you are lazy! You cannot even edit the "The new noraml" thing? I had to waste 10 seconds just to figure out what you were trying to say: moral.

Er, was it about moral?

_____________________________

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(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 6
RE: The new noraml for 1.06.13+ - 10/23/2012 4:56:01 PM   
dave_wolf

 

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normal

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Post #: 7
RE: The new noraml for 1.06.13+ - 10/23/2012 5:07:08 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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"Normal"? LOL


_____________________________

"Hang on, is that it...? Are we on the ring...?? Ready???" -- Nürburgring Seven Second Ring King

(in reply to dave_wolf)
Post #: 8
RE: The new noraml for 1.06.13+ - 10/23/2012 5:52:45 PM   
vandev

 

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76mm, the new thing I was trying to suggest was the effect on the soviet army of 15+ turns of continual attack in the north and center.

Encirclement tactics are great when they work, especially if the soviet is already weak. But how much damage is done to the soviet in the turn movement points are spent positioning panzer and inf to create and close a pocket? if the pocket is relieved during the soviet turn, german infantry is idle again as the pocket closes. Also, in the center during turns 3 to 8 or 9 german supply is tenuous. If german armor has movement in the 25 range it is hard to do really grand pockets. One deliberate attack causes 2k soviet casualties. One a stack of 3, you can cause 8k. If the german can inflick 120k of attrition like casualties a turn plus any pockets that naturally form, that is alot of damage over time. 200k of damage means the soviet army is not growing.

I like pockets that are unbreakable, i like to attack with infantry. I will do both if offered. But if the soviet is retreating 3 to 4 hexes a turn, it is very hard to launch a successful pocket making attack. So what do you do? I suggest just hitting the front line units. Over time it really hurts. In the game I referred to, pockets did occur. Some early, most later. Pockets are easier to form against exhausted soviets and pockets are easier to hold when soviet counterattacks are weaker. In the beginning the soviet has the tools to break pockets. Attrition relentlessly applied can blunt that tool and then allow true damage to take place.

The soviet becomes vulnerable when they decide they do not need to retreat 3 to 4 hexes a turn. The axis is vulnerable when they are 20 mp's from a rail head. Turns 5 to fall of leningrad, the soviet often decides to stand and fight in the north. Turns 12 to 17, the soviet will slow its retreat and fight for moscow. How can the german maximize combat power to fight when the soviet chooses. How can the german do damage when the soviet decides he is willing to retreat each turn.

Believe me, I try to do HQB's to have gassed up panzers to take advantage or create situations but I need a soviet to convince himself that he does not need to retreat this turn to really put down the hurt. The german does not make the decision to stand and fight, only the soviet can. If the soviet is retreating, then I say deliberate attack the screening units to maximize casualties. If they retreat to0 fastthe axis will arrive in front of moscow strong and insupply. The german can be within 10 hexes of a railhead from turn 13 onward. That is 6 clear and 3 snow turns of attacks. Whether you hold moscow or not, that is alot of damage if the german is prepared to dish it out. Also, it is inevitable that a good soviet line will have hexes that panzers cannot really do a hasty assualt. In that situatuon, just admit that you cannot really form a good pocket and suck it up and do the deliberate attack.

Last but not least, the only thing the german can really control is where his units are. To me the key skill of the german is having the right units in the right place at the right time. This does not always mean mass. But if often does.

vandev

(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 9
RE: The new noraml for 1.06.13+ - 10/23/2012 9:53:32 PM   
carlkay58

 

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It is an alternative tactic versus concentrating on encirclements. It is a faster tempo and brings much more pressure on the Soviets. I have used it successfully in several of my games as the Axis vs humans - one game the Soviets beefed up the Leningrad defenses early but the 2nd and 3rd Panzer Groups ended up charging through the land bridge and forming an eight hex wide corridor that reached Moscow on turn 10. You take what you can sometimes.

The tactic works well against most Soviet tactics - it may not work as well as the encirclement vs a forward defense, but against a Soviet player who is constantly pulling back three or four hexes (or more) a turn it is the only tactic that will cause some hurt and slow down the growth of the Soviet army.

The thing to remember is that the war, and the game, is a war of attrition. Whichever side bleeds out the most will lose. The victory conditions emphasize the attritional aspect of the game. Remember that capturing 10 manpower centers in early 41 will cause the Soviets to lose 500 men / turn in 41; 300 men per turn in 42; etc. Far more productive than encircling and destroying a few 8K man divisions which will be replaced for free (but not the manpower).

Back to Pelton's original post - he is posting his current strategy - and it is a valid one. My personal feeling is that both the Soviet and Axis elite players (such as Flavius, Pelton, and MT) sometimes get caught in ruts and that, while their strategies are very sound, they also tend to be repetative and not necessarily the best.

(in reply to vandev)
Post #: 10
RE: The new noraml for 1.06.13+ - 10/23/2012 10:09:44 PM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 6260
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

Dunno why you're still bothering to play. Every single iteration of the game, Soviets get stuff to keep Germany from getting anything more than they did historically in 1941, while also enabling the Soviet to have many more cohesive Fronts than were possible given their doctrine and experience.

The whole game is a sh!tshow, and we all should have walked away when we realized that Billings thinks it's right and proper to remove divisions that surrendered at Stalingrad irrespective of Stalingrad happening. If that doesn't tell you who he's in the bag for, then you're a Soviet fanboy.

This game is a Soviet 'what if' exercise, and nothing at all more.
It was complicated enough to get a pass for two years, with grognards mistaking detail for balance.
The playtesters were all Soviet fanboys from Europe who wanted nothing more than to stomp Germany into the ground, no matter how unrealistic the mechanics that get them there.



Hi, good to see your still checking in.

I be happy to do a friendly off the record game if your interested.

You are right about the general MO of 2by3.

SHC what if's are cool and what if's GHC are from satan, but thats why I play.

I like being one step ahead of THE MAN with the next step alrdy in my tool kit, heheheh.

This is by far and will probably always will be the best Eastern front game ever.

I very much miss your 100% on target posts, that cause the Red kiddys to go nuts hehehehe. You just need to turn down the negitive a little and stick to facts.

Again great to see a post from you and throw me a PM if at some point you like to have a friendly game.



_____________________________

GHC
23 - 4 - 8

16 games ended in 41 (16-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 11
RE: The new noraml for 1.06.13+ - 10/23/2012 10:46:55 PM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 6260
Joined: 4/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Bloody hell, Pelton, you are lazy! You cannot even edit the "The new noraml" thing? I had to waste 10 seconds just to figure out what you were trying to say: moral.

Er, was it about moral?


I like to keep poeple thinking I am a dum ass red neck.

I am stupid just ask me I will tell you.




< Message edited by Pelton -- 10/23/2012 10:50:12 PM >


_____________________________

GHC
23 - 4 - 8

16 games ended in 41 (16-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 12
RE: The new noraml for 1.06.13+ - 10/24/2012 1:38:15 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

1. SHC losses under 2.5 million.
2. Moscow has yet to fall in a single AAR and there are over 2 dozen AAR threads posted 1.06.13+ now. So this is basicly set in stone.
3. Leningrad holding 50% of the time. Some guys hold it everytime.
4. Blizzard beat downs. Because in most cases the SHC takes less then 2.5 million in losses by Dec 1st the SHC OOB is at 5 million+. If GHC doesn't run they will get completely smoked.
5. Industry is as we all know window dressing and means zip, not really even worth talking about any more other then manpower centers.

This is the current condition of the game. I am talking about games started after 1.06.13 was released. There are a few games on going that started long before its release.



Pelton if you are saying that the game is currently biased towards the Soviets I agree with you (but not for the reasons you suggest). But if you are saying that recent changes have made it less historically realistic than I disagree. I assume that when you say that Soviet losses are under 2.5 million you mean over the first 17 turns. Historically Soviet casualties were much greater than this over this time period but that is only because they were incredibly stupid. You can't expect a skilled human opponent to be as dumb.

I did a quick count myself and I don't think there are over two dozen 1.06.13+ AAR games played to turn 17 yet, but I could be wrong as I didn't have the time to check them all. I do know that in at least 2 games the Soviets resigned long before turn 17 so it is hard to say if Moscow would have fallen or not (but certainly the Russian players thought they were doomed). In any event, as ineptly as the real Russian high command performed the Germas were unable to take Moscow, so I think it should be a long shot for the Germans to take it given equal opponents.

With respect to Leningrad holding 50% of the time, my own count was less than that though it may depend on what you mean by "hold". In a few games Leningrad was either isolated or doomed by the end of summer but the German player held off liquidating it until after October. And of course, again, historically the Soviets were able to hold Leningrad despite their intial stupidity. The only way Soviet players seem to be able to hold Leningrad is by committing about twice as many units to it's defence as historical. This should be looked at.

I do agree with you that the Soviets are too powerful, or the Axis too weak, in the Blizzard. This should also be looked at.

I disagree that industry "window dressing" but no point debating that now.

< Message edited by Harrybanana -- 10/24/2012 1:39:50 AM >

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 13
RE: The new noraml for 1.06.13+ - 10/24/2012 2:55:37 AM   
Michael T


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Pelton please don't take offence but your Axis 1941 play is not up to par anymore. You need to spend some time reinvigorating your operations. Against competent Soviet players your tried and tested just won't get the results you want anymore. You certainly have the ability to reinvent it.

I am quite confident that I can better most Soviets (playing as German) in 1942. But you need a good 1941. You can improve in this area a lot. If you weaken the Soviets enough in the summer this will translate to a weak Soviet blizzard O. I fully appreciate that 1941 victories over Russia are now fairly remote. The 1942 KO is still a real chance. Yes the game overall favours the Soviets ultimately. But I do not agree it is to the level you are advocating.

_____________________________

'Deus le Volt!'
------------------

(in reply to Harrybanana)
Post #: 14
RE: The new noraml for 1.06.13+ - 10/24/2012 4:10:51 AM   
76mm


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From: Moscow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
I very much miss your 100% on target posts, that cause the Red kiddys to go nuts hehehehe. You just need to turn down the negitive a little and stick to facts.


This is a great quote. Indeed, turning down the negative and sticking to the facts would help.

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 15
RE: The new noraml for 1.06.13+ - 10/24/2012 4:33:57 AM   
dave_wolf

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

And of course, again, historically the Soviets were able to hold Leningrad despite their intial stupidity.

Obviously that's no point at all as for the possibility (or lack thereof) of taking Leningrad in '41, since the GHC didn't even try to do so.

You're painting an incomplete picture, because both sides made stupid mistakes. A competent what-if takes that into account.

< Message edited by dave_wolf -- 10/24/2012 5:39:55 AM >


_____________________________

The artist formerly known as davewolf.

Lose your password, let your email account expire and you're a complete noob again...

(in reply to Harrybanana)
Post #: 16
RE: The new noraml for 1.06.13+ - 10/24/2012 7:16:24 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dave_wolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

And of course, again, historically the Soviets were able to hold Leningrad despite their intial stupidity.

Obviously that's no point at all as for the possibility (or lack thereof) of taking Leningrad in '41, since the GHC didn't even try to do so.

You're painting an incomplete picture, because both sides made stupid mistakes. A competent what-if takes that into account.


I disagree that the GHC didn't "try" to take Leningrad, at least initially. But you are correct that they ultimately decided that the time, effort and casulaties to take it would be too high and so chose to commit their resources elsewhere. The problem with most games is that, unless the Soviets commit overwhelming force to hold it, the Germans will generally take Leningrad without too much of an effort. In other words, if both sides commit the historical forces it will fall.

With respect to the "stupid mistakes" I personally do not believe they were committed equally by both sides and certainly not in 1941. I mean if Kiev wasn't a stupid mistake I don't know what is. But perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree on this.

(in reply to dave_wolf)
Post #: 17
RE: The new noraml for 1.06.13+ - 10/24/2012 7:36:45 AM   
dave_wolf

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana


I disagree that the GHC didn't "try" to take Leningrad, at least initially.

There isn't much to disagree upon.

They stopped at the outskirts of the city when AH decided to do so. The city itself was never assaulted.

quote:


With respect to the "stupid mistakes" I personally do not believe they were committed equally by both sides and certainly not in 1941.

Whether or not mistakes were "committed equally" is simply besides the (my) point. I wrote 'both sides made' them. And a competent GHC player will, for example, prepare for the winter in a way that historically didn't happen.

So again, a competent what-if (in terms of this game) changes both sides, not just the Soviet side. As simple as that.

< Message edited by dave_wolf -- 10/24/2012 7:39:39 AM >


_____________________________

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Post #: 18
RE: The new noraml for 1.06.13+ - 10/24/2012 7:49:46 PM   
heliodorus04


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Pelton please don't take offence but your Axis 1941 play is not up to par anymore. You need to spend some time reinvigorating your operations. Against competent Soviet players your tried and tested just won't get the results you want anymore. You certainly have the ability to reinvent it.

I am quite confident that I can better most Soviets (playing as German) in 1942. But you need a good 1941. You can improve in this area a lot. If you weaken the Soviets enough in the summer this will translate to a weak Soviet blizzard O. I fully appreciate that 1941 victories over Russia are now fairly remote. The 1942 KO is still a real chance. Yes the game overall favours the Soviets ultimately. But I do not agree it is to the level you are advocating.


Again, the best German players cannot beat the best Soviet players anywhere near close to 50% of the time (most games that reach 1944 end in 1944 with Axis capitulation). A great number of the best Soviet players do not play the Axis whatsoever.

The point that all the dunderheads at Matrix are missing is that the game is so biased in favor of the Soviet that MOST PEOPLE WHO BOUGHT THE GAME QUIT PLAYING because they were not having fun. That's the market research that I've accumulated. I'm sure it falls on deaf ears.

PS: Thanks Pelton, for the kind words. Not in the mood to play WitE (obviously). Moving on to other things (but reserve the right to buy WitW to continue legitimate criticism of bad game design & horrible patching decisions).

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 19
RE: The new noraml for 1.06.13+ - 10/24/2012 9:39:38 PM   
jaw

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
The whole game is a sh!tshow, and we all should have walked away when we realized that Billings thinks it's right and proper to remove divisions that surrendered at Stalingrad irrespective of Stalingrad happening. If that doesn't tell you who he's in the bag for, then you're a Soviet fanboy.


I have explained this treatment over and over again but it appears it still not understood. The divisions that were destroyed at Stalingrad, rebuilt and returned to the Eastern Front NEVER leave the game. Only the divisions that were destroyed at Stalingrad, rebuilt and SENT ELSEWHERE are withdrawn. Those divisions are withdrawn AFTER they were rebuilt not when they surrendered at Stalingrad so they are no different from any other withdrawal in the game.

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 20
RE: The new noraml for 1.06.13+ - 10/24/2012 10:31:12 PM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jaw


quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
The whole game is a sh!tshow, and we all should have walked away when we realized that Billings thinks it's right and proper to remove divisions that surrendered at Stalingrad irrespective of Stalingrad happening. If that doesn't tell you who he's in the bag for, then you're a Soviet fanboy.


I have explained this treatment over and over again but it appears it still not understood. The divisions that were destroyed at Stalingrad, rebuilt and returned to the Eastern Front NEVER leave the game. Only the divisions that were destroyed at Stalingrad, rebuilt and SENT ELSEWHERE are withdrawn. Those divisions are withdrawn AFTER they were rebuilt not when they surrendered at Stalingrad so they are no different from any other withdrawal in the game.


You're wasting your time. You've explained it, I put out a list of what happenned to said divisions, it's been explained over and over.

At this point I'd just say it's trolling for the sake of trolling. Same old Soviet "fanboy" nonsense.

(in reply to jaw)
Post #: 21
RE: The new noraml for 1.06.13+ - 10/24/2012 11:01:50 PM   
el hefe


Posts: 3219
Joined: 10/28/2002
Status: offline
Here's the discussion again.


http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3104200&mpage=1&key=withdrawals

Trey


quote:

ORIGINAL: jaw


quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
The whole game is a sh!tshow, and we all should have walked away when we realized that Billings thinks it's right and proper to remove divisions that surrendered at Stalingrad irrespective of Stalingrad happening. If that doesn't tell you who he's in the bag for, then you're a Soviet fanboy.


I have explained this treatment over and over again but it appears it still not understood. The divisions that were destroyed at Stalingrad, rebuilt and returned to the Eastern Front NEVER leave the game. Only the divisions that were destroyed at Stalingrad, rebuilt and SENT ELSEWHERE are withdrawn. Those divisions are withdrawn AFTER they were rebuilt not when they surrendered at Stalingrad so they are no different from any other withdrawal in the game.



_____________________________

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Sabre 21's perpetual arch-nemisis

(in reply to jaw)
Post #: 22
RE: The new noraml for 1.06.13+ - 10/25/2012 6:56:03 AM   
76mm


Posts: 2152
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Moscow
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
The whole game is a sh!tshow, and we all should have walked away when we realized that Billings thinks it's right and proper to remove divisions that surrendered at Stalingrad irrespective of Stalingrad happening. If that doesn't tell you who he's in the bag for, then you're a Soviet fanboy.
*****
The playtesters were all Soviet fanboys from Europe who wanted nothing more than to stomp Germany into the ground, no matter how unrealistic the mechanics that get them there.
*****
The point that all the dunderheads at Matrix are missing is that the game is so biased in favor of the Soviet that MOST PEOPLE WHO BOUGHT THE GAME QUIT PLAYING because they were not having fun. That's the market research that I've accumulated. I'm sure it falls on deaf ears.


Your juvenile ranting and insults about the devs have really gotten out of hand. You don't like the game, great, we all pretty much understand that at this point. I actually agree with many of your actual criticisms of game mechanics, but comletely disagree that the game, and the devs, are hopelessly biased in favor of the Sovs, and that it becomes more biased in "every single iteration of the game". Frankly, that is simply a ridiculous statement.

I think that the game balance/feel issues which exist stem from some fundamental flaws in the game design, and even more so, the difficulty (infeasibility?) of getting the various parts of the game to work together to replicate the war in the east from start to finish with anything like "historical" results. But this has nothing to do with dev bias...

As to your "market research": I'm not sure how you got the idea that everyone stopped playing because the game is biased in favor of the Sovs (and yet supposedly most of the players are also Sov fanbois, hmmm)? I'm on my last game, but for reasons I've mentioned in other threads, and certainly not because of pro-Sov bias.

At this point your rants reveal more about your own bias rather than that of the devs, and I hope that in future posts (if any) you limit your comments to something approaching constructive criticism rather than your repeated, unwarranted, and wholly inappropriate insults directed at the devs.

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 23
RE: The new noraml for 1.06.13+ - 10/25/2012 8:04:05 AM   
randallw

 

Posts: 1976
Joined: 9/2/2010
Status: offline
My personal supply of nerf bats has run out.

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 24
RE: The new noraml for 1.06.13+ - 10/25/2012 5:55:21 PM   
Schmart

 

Posts: 657
Joined: 9/13/2010
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
The point that all the dunderheads at Matrix are missing is that the game is so biased in favor of the Soviet...


Personally, I've found that insulting people doesn't usually get very good results, and doesn't usually reflect very well on the person throwing them about. You've consistently ignored any counter-arguments and counter-facts posed to you regarding such things as the Stalingrad 'withdrawls' and AP transfer costs, to name a few. All you do is repeatedly shout out your dogma.

You don't play the game anymore, you don't post here anymore, until you suddenly pop up to (un-constructively) slag the game and throw around some insults. I believe that's the definition of a troll...

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 25
RE: The new noraml for 1.06.13+ - 10/25/2012 7:01:03 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 2278
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
My regular opponent and I stopped playing. Not because of any so called bias, but because we wanted to try other games. We've played AACW, Rise of Prussia, and are currently playing Battleground Gettysburg. We'll play Tiller's Campaign Waterloo when he gets it, and Madden 13 when I get comfortable with it.

Stick that in your "market research."

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 10/25/2012 10:34:20 PM >

(in reply to Schmart)
Post #: 26
RE: The new noraml for 1.06.13+ - 10/25/2012 9:26:14 PM   
Cannonfodder


Posts: 1997
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04


The playtesters were all Soviet fanboys from Europe who wanted nothing more than to stomp Germany into the ground, no matter how unrealistic the mechanics that get them there.



Still venting your frustration on the forums Helio? Just a question, but what the hell has coming from Europe have to do with wanting to stomp germany into the ground. The war has been over for a long, long time you know... Did you ever visit Europe?

_____________________________


"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor


(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 27
RE: The new noraml for 1.06.13+ - 10/25/2012 9:39:25 PM   
elmo3

 

Posts: 4887
Joined: 1/22/2002
Status: offline
Since I have access to the tester list, and Helio doesn't, I can tell you that about half the testers are from the US with the rest from around the world including Australia. We even have a few Germans on the team but I guess they are all just Soviet sympathizers.

_____________________________

We don't stop playing games because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing games - Anon.

WitE Alpha/Beta Tester

(in reply to Cannonfodder)
Post #: 28
RE: The new noraml for 1.06.13+ - 10/25/2012 10:38:47 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 2278
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
I'm still waiting to hear how reducing Soviet command points is pro Soviet.

Or how every destroyed German division comes back for no AP cost is pro Soviet

Or how, IIRC, there are many German units that don't withdraw in the game, even thougn they did in the real thing. The pro Soviet bias is obvious.

And so on....

(in reply to elmo3)
Post #: 29
RE: The new noraml for 1.06.13+ - 10/26/2012 1:04:13 AM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 6260
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Pelton please don't take offence but your Axis 1941 play is not up to par anymore. You need to spend some time reinvigorating your operations. Against competent Soviet players your tried and tested just won't get the results you want anymore. You certainly have the ability to reinvent it.

I am quite confident that I can better most Soviets (playing as German) in 1942. But you need a good 1941. You can improve in this area a lot. If you weaken the Soviets enough in the summer this will translate to a weak Soviet blizzard O. I fully appreciate that 1941 victories over Russia are now fairly remote. The 1942 KO is still a real chance. Yes the game overall favours the Soviets ultimately. But I do not agree it is to the level you are advocating.


I have 4 GHC 1.06.13 on going.

1. 4 million KIA
2. 3.3. KIA
3. 3 KIA
4. 2.2 KIA

One SHC 2.6 KIA

Your saying your the only competent Soviet player of the 5?

I did not take a beating in any of the 5 games, only 1 player has given me a beating during blizzard. Play style is different with each player. Suffering less then 2.6 million in losses is not that hard as you know you have done it over and over vs the best GHC players. I did it in my first game its easy.

So do they all have to improve? Other then you of course.

I guess your saying your the only good GHC or SHC player?

I am not seeing anything in your post other then a general rant about how uber you are and everyone esle blows.

Am I missing something?

Your getting a little to predictable in your posts.

MT please don't take offence but your spending way to much time blowing your own horn, its kinda tacky.

_____________________________

GHC
23 - 4 - 8

16 games ended in 41 (16-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 30
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