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RNZN Minesweepers

 
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RNZN Minesweepers - 10/22/2012 4:43:50 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 15092
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First -

RNZN Kiwi class minesweepers (clas slot 180) are incorrectly defined. A variant of the USN
Bird class, they have vastly more range than given, and a unique armament. For some
reason unknown to me, maximum speed is one knot less - at 13. The armament includes
a single 4 inch /45 forward and a peculiar, French dual Hotchkiss 3 pounder aft. Probably also
two rifle caliber machine guns. The listed displacement would be correct if standard is used
(no navy in the world uses standard displacement, a legal concept: damage control depends
on thinking in terms of full load displacement; when this is exceeded, the ship sinks!) But
the USN Bird class shows the correct full load value - so we should be consistent. There are three
members of the class - ship slots 1916 to 1918.

More courious still is the case of RNZN Matai. Fairly well defined in class slot 196, she was
a former lighthouse tender, but does not appear in the ship data at all as far as I can tell. I am
using ship slot 9730 for her. She has a similar 4 inch gun - although /40 caliber - and two 20 mm
in addition to probably two machine guns. Requistioned in May 1941, she was in service by the
time the Pacific War began.

< Message edited by el cid again -- 10/22/2012 4:46:36 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: RNZN Minesweepers - 10/22/2012 5:13:34 AM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8155
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

First -

RNZN Kiwi class minesweepers (clas slot 180) are incorrectly defined. A variant of the USN
Bird class, they have vastly more range than given, and a unique armament. For some
reason unknown to me, maximum speed is one knot less - at 13. The armament includes
a single 4 inch /45 forward and a peculiar, French dual Hotchkiss 3 pounder aft. Probably also
two rifle caliber machine guns. The listed displacement would be correct if standard is used
(no navy in the world uses standard displacement, a legal concept: damage control depends
on thinking in terms of full load displacement; when this is exceeded, the ship sinks!) But
the USN Bird class shows the correct full load value - so we should be consistent. There are three
members of the class - ship slots 1916 to 1918.

More courious still is the case of RNZN Matai. Fairly well defined in class slot 196, she was
a former lighthouse tender, but does not appear in the ship data at all as far as I can tell. I am
using ship slot 9730 for her. She has a similar 4 inch gun - although /40 caliber - and two 20 mm
in addition to probably two machine guns. Requistioned in May 1941, she was in service by the
time the Pacific War began.


Are you basing your statements about the Kiwi class on the US Bird class minesweepers??

The Kiwi class, of course, have no relationship to the US Bird class. They are modifications of the standard British Isles class trawlers, which were modified in both minesweeper/ASW and full anti-submarine configurations. The Kiwi class had the forecastle extended to midships and the bridge placed further aft.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 2
RE: RNZN Minesweepers - 10/22/2012 5:40:09 AM   
JeffK


Posts: 5230
Joined: 1/26/2005
From: Back in the Office, Can I get my tin hut back!
Status: online
Simple logic, a Kiwi is a Bird so...........

It was based on a RN Bird class

The Bird class minesweeper was a naval trawler built to Admiralty specifications so it could function as a minesweeper. Forty-five were built. The RNZN ships were also referred to as corvettes.

The Bird class evolved from the experimental MS trawler HMS Basset, 1935, followed by HMS Mastiff, 1938, both built by Henry Robb Ltd. They were slightly larger and more powerful than these prototypes of what ultimately became the Isles' class.

The ships were HMNZS Kiwi, Moa & Tui

< Message edited by JeffK -- 10/22/2012 5:42:52 AM >


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(in reply to Don Bowen)
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RE: RNZN Minesweepers - 10/24/2012 11:21:39 AM   
Kereguelen


Posts: 1775
Joined: 5/13/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

First -

RNZN Kiwi class minesweepers (clas slot 180) are incorrectly defined. A variant of the USN
Bird class, they have vastly more range than given, and a unique armament. For some
reason unknown to me, maximum speed is one knot less - at 13. The armament includes
a single 4 inch /45 forward and a peculiar, French dual Hotchkiss 3 pounder aft. Probably also
two rifle caliber machine guns. The listed displacement would be correct if standard is used
(no navy in the world uses standard displacement, a legal concept: damage control depends
on thinking in terms of full load displacement; when this is exceeded, the ship sinks!) But
the USN Bird class shows the correct full load value - so we should be consistent. There are three
members of the class - ship slots 1916 to 1918.

time the Pacific War began.


Not USN Bird-Class but Admiralty Bird-Class, as others already stated.

Armament was 4in/45 BL Mk IX gun, two Hotchkiss LMG, either M1909 or M1922 (no Hotchkiss 3 pounder, of course) and a twin Lewis LMG (but this was replaced on the way to NZ by a 20mm Oerlikon).

Endurance seems indeed a little bit low because they carried 220t oil fuel (in AE just 128t)

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 4
RE: RNZN Minesweepers - 10/25/2012 9:04:09 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 15092
Joined: 10/10/2005
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I followed materials such as this, including an image. It certainly looks like a minesweeper, not a converted trawler,
and it certainly says converted Bird class. Since there is no listing for an RN Bird class minesweeper and there is
for a USN, and since the tonnage and speed and general hull shape seem about right, I assumed it meant Bird class
MS. The displacement given also seems to imply USN Bird class - and full load certainly is not similar to stock data -
which is should be. If it is another class - the differences between it and USN Bird are trivial - and the range is
almost certainly greater than the listing. I am glad to be corrected - if you can provide me with a listing of the
RN class and in particular with range data that is correct for it.


HMNZS Kiwi - Bird Class Minesweeper Lead [-]

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(14/12/08 21:34:59)
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Name: HMNZS Kiwi (T102)
Builder: Henry Robb Ltd. Scotland.
Commissioned: 20 Oct 1941
Decommissioned: 20 Dec1956

Displacement: 607 standard, 923 full load
Length: 168 ft (51 m) /157.5 ft (48.0 m)
Beam: 30 ft (9.1 m)
Draught: 15.3 ft (4.7 m)
Propulsion: 1100 ihp (820 kW) oil
Speed: 13 knots
Complement: 33-35
Armament: 1x4 inch gun, 2x1 Hotchkiss, twin Lewis, 40 depth charges


HMNZS Kiwi (T102) was a Bird Class minesweeper of the Royal New Zealand Navy.
She was commissioned in 1941 for minesweeping and anti-submarine roles. From 1948 to 1956 she functioned as a training ship.
On 29 Jan 1943, with her sister ship Moa, Kiwi rammed and wrecked the Japanese submarine I-1. At the time Kiwi was under the command of Lieutenant Commander Gordan Bridson who was awarded the DSC and the United States Navy Cross for this action.





< Message edited by el cid again -- 10/25/2012 9:09:41 AM >

(in reply to Kereguelen)
Post #: 5
RE: RNZN Minesweepers - 10/25/2012 9:14:09 AM   
el cid again

 

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Joined: 10/10/2005
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Conways lists them as RNZN only, not as a variant of any RN MS class, but as "trawlers" - with 14 knots of speed
(identical to USN Bird class) vice the 13 knots listed by RNZN - and 220 tons of fuel - but no range indicated.
The tonnage is given as 825 full load. A trawler of 825 tons with 220 tons of fuel surely can go more, rather than
less, than 2000 miles - unless it has a remarkably inefficient powerplant or hull.



(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 6
RE: RNZN Minesweepers - 10/25/2012 9:25:12 AM   
YankeeAirRat


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Try checking out this website on the three "Bird" class minesweepers, which is the offical New Zealand History website: http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/war/bird-class-minesweepers

To quote some from the website:

quote:

The Royal New Zealand Navy's new Bird-class ships were unusual. Although they looked a little like the Admiralty’s Isles-class minesweeping trawlers, their extended forecastles gave them more of a naval look. In terms of punch and power they slotted somewhere in between minesweeping trawlers and corvettes
The best way of thinking of these ships is as multi-purpose vessels optimised to train young New Zealanders in seamanship, minesweeping, gunnery and – unusually for such vessels – even torpedoes. When Defence Minister Fred Jones announced their ordering in December 1939, he called them ‘three small training ships, not unlike trawlers’; two years later, just before their arrival in New Zealand, he spoke of them forming ‘a training flotilla’.
Kiwi, Moa and Tui were also unusual in another way. In the Second World War, the Royal Navy built its small escorts in huge numbers – there were 145 Isles-class ships and nearly 270 Flower- and Improved Flower-class ships. At just three in number, Kiwi, Moa and Tui were very rare birds, a one-off design ideally timed to assist the birth of a new navy.


There appears to be about four or five more pages along with references to both unofficial veterans websites about service onboard the three Bird class ships and some written material as well.

_____________________________

Take my word for it. You never want to be involved in an “International Incident”.

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