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What is going on with 'Ships Dead in Water'

 
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What is going on with 'Ships Dead in Water' - 10/20/2012 12:05:29 AM   
abulbulian


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late Jan 42

Just got done watching 50 my elite CV torpedo bombers (B5N2) with 60 elite Zero escorts get through some BS US weaker LR CAP fighters to hit a group of 4 destroyers labeled 'Dead in Water' ... out of all those 50+ Kates only get 3 hits on 2 ships?

Just does not jive with anything I would expect to be realistic. Not only was that very crappy, but then all my fighters still (40 left) couldn't protected my bombers from getting jumped after they bombed?

Was this like the worst possible situation for luck. Can I expect this from WitP or did I just have the worst luck ever and/or what am I miss? So was I to understand that these destroyers were 'Dead in Water' and still can't get more than 3 hits out of 50?

Depressing ...

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RE: What is going on with 'Ships Dead in Water' - 10/20/2012 12:11:10 AM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

late Jan 42

Just got done watching 50 my elite CV torpedo bombers (B5N2) with 60 elite Zero escorts get through some BS US weaker LR CAP fighters to hit a group of 4 destroyers labeled 'Dead in Water' ... out of all those 50+ Kates only get 3 hits on 2 ships?

Just does not jive with anything I would expect to be realistic. Not only was that very crappy, but then all my fighters still (40 left) couldn't protected my bombers from getting jumped after they bombed?

Was this like the worst possible situation for luck. Can I expect this from WitP or did I just have the worst luck ever and/or what am I miss? So was I to understand that these destroyers were 'Dead in Water' and still can't get more than 3 hits out of 50?

Depressing ...


I don't know what feedback you got, but DITW doesn't necessary mean "not shooting back." You're going to get all sorts of occasions where pilots react un-calmly when the lead is flying thier way. There are a lot of variables in the naval attack algorithms, almost none of us know them (I don't), so relax and enjoy the ride.

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RE: What is going on with 'Ships Dead in Water' - 10/20/2012 12:18:20 AM   
dr.hal


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We could understand a bit better if you give more information, what was the fatigue, weather, leadership, relative altitudes, etc.... But Bullwinkle is right, there is a lot that goes into the hopper and we as simply players don't know much about the "secret sauce" that the designers used... best just to go with it... you will have more bad days, but they will be offset by some really good ones...

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RE: What is going on with 'Ships Dead in Water' - 10/20/2012 2:16:57 AM   
Chickenboy


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Here's what I got from the post:

1. DITW after being hit is a bad thing for a ship. It usually means it's stricken, and in extremis. In other words: (nearly) good as dead.

2. DDs are hard to hit with torpedoes. WAD.

3. Your B5N2s got jumped after dropping on the DDs, but there is insufficient information in your post to merit discussion of this event.

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RE: What is going on with 'Ships Dead in Water' - 10/20/2012 2:36:48 AM   
Fallschirmjager


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If they were already damaged then that would probably mean a great deal of smoke. Smoke makes it very difficult to make successful attacks.

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RE: What is going on with 'Ships Dead in Water' - 10/20/2012 4:35:48 AM   
abulbulian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

We could understand a bit better if you give more information, what was the fatigue, weather, leadership, relative altitudes, etc.... But Bullwinkle is right, there is a lot that goes into the hopper and we as simply players don't know much about the "secret sauce" that the designers used... best just to go with it... you will have more bad days, but they will be offset by some really good ones...



No fatigue (maybe 1-5). Leadership was high 70+.

Still nobody knows what 'Dead in Water' means and it's impact? Are they really not moving? Shouldn't I see my elite bombers get more than 3 hits with 50 planes?


here's combat report
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Pearl Harbor at 180,107

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 118 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 50 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 59
B5N2 Kate x 60



Allied aircraft
P-26A x 5
P-36A Mohawk x 19
P-40B Warhawk x 30
F4F-3 Wildcat x 10
SNJ-3 Texan x 2


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 5 destroyed
B5N2 Kate: 7 destroyed, 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
P-26A: 1 destroyed
P-36A Mohawk: 4 destroyed
P-40B Warhawk: 2 destroyed
SNJ-3 Texan: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
DD Ward
DD Chew, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Schley, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Allen



Aircraft Attacking:
8 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet *
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
12 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet *
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
10 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet *
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
11 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet *
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
11 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet *
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VF-42 with F4F-3 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(10 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 7 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 48 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
18th PG/6th PS with P-40B Warhawk (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(10 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 7 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 45 minutes
3 planes vectored on to bombers
18th PG/19th PS with P-40B Warhawk (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(7 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 41 minutes
2 planes vectored on to bombers
18th PG/44th PS with P-40B Warhawk (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(7 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 47 minutes
1 planes vectored on to bombers
15th PG/45th PS with P-36A Mohawk (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(8 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 3 minutes
15th PG/46th PS with P-36A Mohawk (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(9 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 6 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 44 minutes
15th PG/72nd PS with P-26A (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(5 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 3 minutes
15th PG/HqS with P-36A Mohawk (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 50 minutes
2 planes vectored on to bombers
18th PG/HqS with SNJ-3 Texan (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Raid is overhead
18th PG/73rd PS with P-40B Warhawk (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 3 minutes
18th PG/78th PS with P-40B Warhawk (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 47 minutes
3 planes vectored on to bombers

Ward dead in the water ...
Chew dead in the water ...
Schley dead in the water ...
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring DD Schley
Allen dead in the water ...
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring DD Chew

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RE: What is going on with 'Ships Dead in Water' - 10/20/2012 4:37:39 AM   
abulbulian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

If they were already damaged then that would probably mean a great deal of smoke. Smoke makes it very difficult to make successful attacks.



Ok, guess this is plausible.. the heavy smoke is what made this raid a horrible disaster.



< Message edited by abulbulian -- 10/20/2012 4:38:23 AM >


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RE: What is going on with 'Ships Dead in Water' - 10/20/2012 5:35:56 AM   
Fallschirmjager


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quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

If they were already damaged then that would probably mean a great deal of smoke. Smoke makes it very difficult to make successful attacks.



Ok, guess this is plausible.. the heavy smoke is what made this raid a horrible disaster.




I don't know if you have ever seen fuel oil burn. But it does not produce the gray smoke of a typical fall leaf burning on a Saturday afternoon. It produces thick voluminous smoke that is so dense that no light can penetrate it.



And this is an image from the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal. Those smoke plumes are from Japanese bombers that were shot down. Probably Betties. This was pretty frequent that they would produce this much thick smoke and were often times thought to be burning ships from the air.
Add to this that if the winds were up the waves would be producing white caps and is was not uncommon on the Pacific that small rain squalls and mists would be localized and cover up ships.



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RE: What is going on with 'Ships Dead in Water' - 10/20/2012 5:36:33 AM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

If they were already damaged then that would probably mean a great deal of smoke. Smoke makes it very difficult to make successful attacks.



Ok, guess this is plausible.. the heavy smoke is what made this raid a horrible disaster.




Also the 65 planes on CAP. Be glad you got three hits.

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RE: What is going on with 'Ships Dead in Water' - 10/20/2012 5:38:17 AM   
Fallschirmjager


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

If they were already damaged then that would probably mean a great deal of smoke. Smoke makes it very difficult to make successful attacks.



Ok, guess this is plausible.. the heavy smoke is what made this raid a horrible disaster.




Also the 65 planes on CAP. Be glad you got three hits.



The mighty T-6 Texan is the stuff IJN fly boy nightmares are made of

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RE: What is going on with 'Ships Dead in Water' - 10/20/2012 5:41:17 AM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

If they were already damaged then that would probably mean a great deal of smoke. Smoke makes it very difficult to make successful attacks.



Ok, guess this is plausible.. the heavy smoke is what made this raid a horrible disaster.




Also the 65 planes on CAP. Be glad you got three hits.



The mighty T-6 Texan is the stuff IJN fly boy nightmares are made of


Yeah, all 2 of them.

I think the OP is confused about the sequence of events. The attack was a sucess, leaving the targets DIW. They didn't start that way, they ended that way.

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RE: What is going on with 'Ships Dead in Water' - 10/20/2012 6:05:28 AM   
Saros

 

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Looks like the DD's were out of fuel? I have never seen dead in the water in any other situation.
The real problem is that you are trying to hit destroyers from 9K with kates. Vals dive bombing would work but the Kates are level bombing and wont hit small targets very much from that high even with the ~70 NavB skill KB starting pilots have.

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RE: What is going on with 'Ships Dead in Water' - 10/20/2012 7:09:07 AM   
btbw

 

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Dead in water happen when ship out of fuel (im often see it on PT without fuel) IMHO. May be at also happen when ship damage too high so lose almost all her speed.

< Message edited by btbw -- 10/20/2012 7:10:04 AM >

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RE: What is going on with 'Ships Dead in Water' - 10/20/2012 7:17:36 AM   
Puhis

 

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Next time you use Kates as a level bombers, try fly lower. They are not going to hit anything at 9000 feet.

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RE: What is going on with 'Ships Dead in Water' - 10/20/2012 8:08:44 AM   
Cannonfodder


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A lot of the US fighters needed time to get into position (hence the late attack by most of them) and all of them were above your strike package and got the bounce.. It could have been a lot worse.. Diving down 2km eliminates the chance for the zeroes to react..

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RE: What is going on with 'Ships Dead in Water' - 10/20/2012 8:33:52 AM   
bwheatley

 

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The ships were parked at PH not docked on a 1 day layover in an ASW TF. :) So they were just pimping there with plenty of fuel and what not. Just got caught off guard..at least he didn't hit PH port i had several new heavy AA units moved in to give the 2nd coming of the KB a welcome.

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RE: What is going on with 'Ships Dead in Water' - 10/20/2012 9:15:51 AM   
LoBaron


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Next time you use Kates as a level bombers, try fly lower. They are not going to hit anything at 9000 feet.


This.

You were level bombing from 9k. Be happy that you hit anything at all.

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RE: What is going on with 'Ships Dead in Water' - 10/20/2012 5:38:39 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

The ships were parked at PH not docked on a 1 day layover in an ASW TF. :) So they were just pimping there with plenty of fuel and what not. Just got caught off guard..at least he didn't hit PH port i had several new heavy AA units moved in to give the 2nd coming of the KB a welcome.


Again, unless you cut & pasted the combat report to mak eit out of order, they got hit, THEN they were DIW. If they were in PH's hex, in a TF, fueled, and undocked, then they were shooting back. Combine that with the CAP and the 9000 feet, and this was a devastatingly effective attack, not the failure your OP thought.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 10/20/2012 5:40:01 PM >


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RE: What is going on with 'Ships Dead in Water' - 10/21/2012 1:37:35 AM   
Capt Hornblower


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Why would one send a TB attack in at 9k other than at extended range?

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RE: What is going on with 'Ships Dead in Water' - 10/21/2012 1:56:14 AM   
oldman45


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DIW is also a state a ship reached when the engines are knocked out. Since the combat report really doesn't give all the info, I would guess they were hit more than the report says, and the hits caused major engine room damage.

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RE: What is going on with 'Ships Dead in Water' - 10/21/2012 2:56:28 AM   
bwheatley

 

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Yea i know :) I've played witp/witpae long enough. Just glad you guys talked some sense into him. ;)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

The ships were parked at PH not docked on a 1 day layover in an ASW TF. :) So they were just pimping there with plenty of fuel and what not. Just got caught off guard..at least he didn't hit PH port i had several new heavy AA units moved in to give the 2nd coming of the KB a welcome.


Again, unless you cut & pasted the combat report to mak eit out of order, they got hit, THEN they were DIW. If they were in PH's hex, in a TF, fueled, and undocked, then they were shooting back. Combine that with the CAP and the 9000 feet, and this was a devastatingly effective attack, not the failure your OP thought.



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RE: What is going on with 'Ships Dead in Water' - 10/21/2012 2:58:23 AM   
bwheatley

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

DIW is also a state a ship reached when the engines are knocked out. Since the combat report really doesn't give all the info, I would guess they were hit more than the report says, and the hits caused major engine room damage.


No they were just chilling at PH..they said dead in the water from the very beginning. Had full but were just in PH hex relaxing and sunning. Yea hitting DD's is always going to be a pita.

So i thought with witp:ae though the level of the air craft is more for setting up strike packages?
IE i've seen when i send DB in at 10k so they get CAP escort and then in the combat report it shows them attacking at some lower level.



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RE: What is going on with 'Ships Dead in Water' - 10/21/2012 8:15:30 AM   
JeffK


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Those tincans are DITW and done for, lets choose another target, Whoops missed!

OR

Flight 1 We'll leave those tincans for Flight 2.
Flight 2 Flight 1 are finishing off those tincans, lets get after the other ships!


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RE: What is going on with 'Ships Dead in Water' - 10/21/2012 6:55:25 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley


quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

DIW is also a state a ship reached when the engines are knocked out. Since the combat report really doesn't give all the info, I would guess they were hit more than the report says, and the hits caused major engine room damage.


No they were just chilling at PH..they said dead in the water from the very beginning. Had full but were just in PH hex relaxing and sunning. Yea hitting DD's is always going to be a pita.

So i thought with witp:ae though the level of the air craft is more for setting up strike packages?
IE i've seen when i send DB in at 10k so they get CAP escort and then in the combat report it shows them attacking at some lower level.




For DBs it shows the release level.


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RE: What is going on with 'Ships Dead in Water' - 10/21/2012 6:57:58 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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enjoy having enemy ships out of fuel, preferrably at 0 knots or towed



< Message edited by Commander Stormwolf -- 10/21/2012 6:59:58 PM >


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