Matrix Games Forums

Buzz Aldrins Space Program Manager is now available!Space Program Manager gets mini-site and Twitch SessionBuzz Aldrin: Ask Me Anything (AMA) on redditDeal of the week Fantasy Kommander: Eukarion WarsSpace Program Manager Launch Contest Announced!Battle Academy 2 is out now on iPad!A closer look at rockets in Space Program ManagerDeal of the Week - Pride of NationsA new update for Piercing Fortress EuropaNew screenshots for War in the West!
Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Midway will not conduct strikes on IJN- need help

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Midway will not conduct strikes on IJN- need help Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Midway will not conduct strikes on IJN- need help - 10/18/2012 10:33:21 PM   
godochaos

 

Posts: 273
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline
I am a new player who is making some progress but still encountering situations that baffle me. I am playing the Allies in the 1st grand campaign and it is now January. I have made Midway into a decent little base and it has a unit of PBY's, Wildcats, and DB Dauntlesses. I repulsed a CVL led raid on Midwayin Dec, and felt that the Japs might come back. Now the Kaga and Akagi are sitting 1 hex off Midway and they have conducted airstrikes against some shipping but NO airstrikes against the Midway air field.
However, my #%%^$#% DB Dauntless sat and did nothing allll day. My Wildcats flew missions and defended my shipping, but my Dive Bombers did nothing. I received no messages indicating they had launched a strike but it was lost in the weather. The CV's did not surprise us, they have been spotted for 2 days. In the morning the CV's literally moved onto the Midway hex, still no strikes.

So my question is: why would my DB's not conduct a Naval Attack?

pertinent info: DB's are set to Naval Attack, Search 20, Altitude 10000
Leader Aggression 63, base has plenty of air support
Possible reasons- Base has no fuel, weather over Jap task force????

I tried to post a screen shot but dont know how, sorry




Attachment (1)
Post #: 1
RE: Midway will not conduct strikes on IJN- need help - 10/19/2012 1:52:38 AM   
n01487477


Posts: 4719
Joined: 2/21/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: godochaos

I am a new player who is making some progress but still encountering situations that baffle me. I am playing the Allies in the 1st grand campaign and it is now January. I have made Midway into a decent little base and it has a unit of PBY's, Wildcats, and DB Dauntlesses. I repulsed a CVL led raid on Midwayin Dec, and felt that the Japs might come back. Now the Kaga and Akagi are sitting 1 hex off Midway and they have conducted airstrikes against some shipping but NO airstrikes against the Midway air field.
However, my #%%^$#% DB Dauntless sat and did nothing allll day. My Wildcats flew missions and defended my shipping, but my Dive Bombers did nothing. I received no messages indicating they had launched a strike but it was lost in the weather. The CV's did not surprise us, they have been spotted for 2 days. In the morning the CV's literally moved onto the Midway hex, still no strikes.


You've got 14F and 19DB against KB and are expecting them to commit seppuku? The game engine rarely allows this kind of strike against a vastly superior force. There are other stats that affect this such as leaders and pilot experience, co-ordination factors etc & I also notice it is also raining.

_____________________________

-Damian-
EconDoc
TrackerAE
Tutes&Java

(in reply to godochaos)
Post #: 2
RE: Midway will not conduct strikes on IJN- need help - 10/19/2012 2:15:06 AM   
godochaos

 

Posts: 273
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline
Yes I do expect them to make the attack,because the alternative would be that they will be destroyed on the runways. Against a human player they would be getting pounded by airbase strikes right now, its Strike or Be Struck!. they have been untouched by KB, I have seen many other squadrons attempt to attack the Japanese TFs against poor odds. To clarify its not the entire KB, its 2 carriers(not to say that that is not a rough attack), and i have 2 carriers rushing to defend the Island.
My strategy involves creating these outer defense islands which will act as speed bumps/shields for me to have my carriers operate behind. If these outer defense islands are going to spontaneously refuse to defend themselves I need to know this before I play a human in PBEM.

What makes more sense is the weather being a factor but usually you see a msg that the strike failed to find the target...Actually it does say "Extreme Overcast" on the hex for Midway, and Light Rain on the Jap Carriers.
So you don't see anything in the screen shot that would be an obvious mistake that a new player would commit? I kind of thought it might be because i have zero fuel, but i could swear i've seen offensive air ops from bases with no fuel.
I appreciate your insight though!



(in reply to n01487477)
Post #: 3
RE: Midway will not conduct strikes on IJN- need help - 10/19/2012 2:19:09 AM   
Gräfin Zeppelin


Posts: 1143
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline
Fuel is a non issue here, planes use supply.

Also, the only planes who attack carrier task forces in small numbers are Netties. But only if they have no escort.

< Message edited by Gräfin Zeppelin -- 10/19/2012 2:20:50 AM >


_____________________________



(in reply to godochaos)
Post #: 4
RE: Midway will not conduct strikes on IJN- need help - 10/19/2012 2:33:32 AM   
n01487477


Posts: 4719
Joined: 2/21/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: godochaos

Yes I do expect them to make the attack,because the alternative would be that they will be destroyed on the runways. Against a human player they would be getting pounded by airbase strikes right now, its Strike or Be Struck!. they have been untouched by KB, I have seen many other squadrons attempt to attack the Japanese TFs against poor odds. To clarify its not the entire KB, its 2 carriers(not to say that that is not a rough attack), and i have 2 carriers rushing to defend the Island.
My strategy involves creating these outer defense islands which will act as speed bumps/shields for me to have my carriers operate behind. If these outer defense islands are going to spontaneously refuse to defend themselves I need to know this before I play a human in PBEM.

What makes more sense is the weather being a factor but usually you see a msg that the strike failed to find the target...Actually it does say "Extreme Overcast" on the hex for Midway, and Light Rain on the Jap Carriers.
So you don't see anything in the screen shot that would be an obvious mistake that a new player would commit? I kind of thought it might be because i have zero fuel, but i could swear i've seen offensive air ops from bases with no fuel.
I appreciate your insight though!

Fuel doesn't have any effect on aircraft. Supply is what is needed (it is an abstraction of avgas and munitions). A strike has to undergo a number of die rolls and air superiority. Akagi and Kaga have 36 fighters against your 14. 2-1 air superiority means that the odds of an attack launching are smaller.

I'm not the expert in this area - loBaron, Nemo121, the devs would have greater insight. But having played for many years I can tell you; while it isn't impossible, the odds are against it. I'm sure if you did a sandbox test you will find that they will attack at some point.

I understand your frustration & it is long debated - but this is not a game of complete control. Gary Grigsby made a model with some abstraction, Michael and Henderson Field extended that to peel back the layers. But it still has this luck factor which emulates some WW2 command and control decisions and outcomes.

I hope that some other guys will chime in and give you some more insight.

_____________________________

-Damian-
EconDoc
TrackerAE
Tutes&Java

(in reply to godochaos)
Post #: 5
RE: Midway will not conduct strikes on IJN- need help - 10/19/2012 3:12:37 AM   
godochaos

 

Posts: 273
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline
I appreciate the info guys, I think ultimately the issue is that this means my plan for stymie-ing KB in the 1st year would not really work. The idea being that you would have places like Midway, Johnston, Palmyra, Suva, etc with a fighter, bomber, and PBY,(plus any extras i can get) as a outer shield, that my CV's would then hide behind and then use to pivot off of. I assumed the 18 would attack and 9 would get through and a japanese CV would maybe have a flight deck damaged. Then since my CV's are 1 day out I would come in any then attack a distracted Japanese force with more like even odds. Sort of like the real midway battle.
So this series of events in the game worked out exactly the way I wanted it to, except for the detail that the DB's don't like the odds(which makes a lot of sense). Another way of me looking at this situation would be that instead of being my outer shield, the base may be able to help me when my CV's come in and if I can dmg the Japanese CV's then maybe my land based DB's can start to join in.

So rethinking this idea, if I had the same airforce but added like 12-18 more fighters then i think this might be a more viable strategy.
so my forward shield bases/islands could have:

AF ENG
Navy ENG
1 Bn infantry(would love to also add coastal AA but i think i will be over size limit for a lot of islands)
PBY
2x fighters
1 DB

thx for the insight guys

(in reply to n01487477)
Post #: 6
RE: Midway will not conduct strikes on IJN- need help - 10/19/2012 5:05:18 AM   
Ddog

 

Posts: 208
Joined: 2/17/2005
From: Cincinnati, OH
Status: offline
I am not sure others would agree, but I would keep in mind that it's a long war.  You can play aggressively early on, but the numbers are against you.  I found that against a human player, the only time the KB will be near an island is when it's being invaded or it's passing by (at a distance) looking for merchant shipping and other targets of oppurtunity. So once your island  is under assault you can expect some CA's or BB's to pull up and lay waste to your airfield.  Then when day breaks the KB will finish the job.  So when defending islands I find that CD units placed on your "must keep" islands work the best along with Marine Defense Battalions.  I would also be very leary about getting your carriers caught up in a pissing match with the KB early on.  I usually use the "If I know where the KB is located, then I know where it isn't....and that's where you will find my carriers operating"

Just my 2 cents.  Take it or leave it.

< Message edited by Ddog -- 10/19/2012 5:08:49 AM >


_____________________________

"If you can't take a joke, don't start a war."
Tail gunner, Enola Gay


(in reply to godochaos)
Post #: 7
RE: Midway will not conduct strikes on IJN- need help - 10/19/2012 6:07:43 AM   
JeffK


Posts: 5208
Joined: 1/26/2005
From: Back in the Office, Can I get my tin hut back!
Status: offline
I kind of see the problem, but also think the game works out in the long run.

Based on this, the wildly stupid attack by RAF Swordfish on Scharnhorst & Gneisenau or the RAF Vildebeeste from Singapore attacking IJN units at Endau would be impossible, unescorted TB in the face of CAP.
I'm sure there are countless examples from all sides.

In this case, I'd liek to see a "commander fails morale attempt" or " insufficient fighters for escort" message so that I could see what the problem was and be able to swap out my leader or add some more fighters to the base.

But, I can only suggest perservering, the reverse will happen to your AI opponent as much as to you.

_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to Ddog)
Post #: 8
RE: Midway will not conduct strikes on IJN- need help - 10/19/2012 6:28:48 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 3751
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: godochaos

I appreciate the info guys, I think ultimately the issue is that this means my plan for stymie-ing KB in the 1st year would not really work. The idea being that you would have places like Midway, Johnston, Palmyra, Suva, etc with a fighter, bomber, and PBY,(plus any extras i can get) as a outer shield, that my CV's would then hide behind and then use to pivot off of. I assumed the 18 would attack and 9 would get through and a japanese CV would maybe have a flight deck damaged. Then since my CV's are 1 day out I would come in any then attack a distracted Japanese force with more like even odds. Sort of like the real midway battle.
So this series of events in the game worked out exactly the way I wanted it to, except for the detail that the DB's don't like the odds(which makes a lot of sense). Another way of me looking at this situation would be that instead of being my outer shield, the base may be able to help me when my CV's come in and if I can dmg the Japanese CV's then maybe my land based DB's can start to join in.

So rethinking this idea, if I had the same airforce but added like 12-18 more fighters then i think this might be a more viable strategy.
so my forward shield bases/islands could have:

AF ENG
Navy ENG
1 Bn infantry(would love to also add coastal AA but i think i will be over size limit for a lot of islands)
PBY
2x fighters
1 DB

thx for the insight guys


No, that won't achieve your anticipated outcome either against a human opponent.

1. Most human players keep the KB united. That means in the first 6 months of the war the KB will have 108 fighters embarked. After June 1942 when the squadrons can be resized the number fighters carried will increase quite markedly.

2. Assuming a 50% CAP/50% escort allocation, that means you are looking at about 54 zeros on CAP over the KB until June 1942.

3. In a recent thread on this subject (the subject crops up almost every week), it was recommended that the attacker needs to fly sufficient escorts to match 30% of the enemy fighters (by which they meant all enemy fighters whether on CAP, rest, escort etc). This number is actually too low to ensure most naval strikes will actually take off. Read the first point on page 164 of the manual. The more under a direct 1:1 escort to enemy CAP ratio, the more likely the strike will not take off.

4. You are making the mistake of lumping all your fighters into the pool of escorts. Even after you increase your air component to two fighter squadrons on the atoll, which amounts to 36 planes if deploying USMC squadrons, some of those fighters will be flying CAP (as you had them in post #1) and they are not included in the ratio. If you match the KB 50% CAP ratio with an equal 50% ratio, and have absolutely no fighters undertaking any other duties (such as "rest" or "LRCAP"), you would have at best only 18 fighters to fly escort.

5. Doing the maths from points 2 and 4 above means your escort to enemy CAP ratio would be only 18:54 = 1:3. Not a ratio to give you reliable takeoffs.

6. You also have to factor in the size of the airfields. You will find very few atolls start off with airfields larger than size 1. That means you will have to expend treasure and blood to get them to a useful size. Many can not be built beyond level 3 anyway. Most Japanese players can capture at will, within the first six months, any atoll they want.

Alfred

(in reply to godochaos)
Post #: 9
RE: Midway will not conduct strikes on IJN- need help - 10/19/2012 7:18:38 AM   
obvert


Posts: 7279
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: online
Another thing to consider is that one DB group going after the KB will not hit anything and will be massacred while trying. Here is the result of a test I made recently with a 2 on 2 CV battle in early December.

Even though 27 SBDs made it through the CAP to go after the two Japanese CVs no hits were scored. Part of this must have been the severe weather in the hex. I would suggest running a few tests if you are really curious how this could work. Keep adding more fighters on escort until your one group flies. If you're playing the AI you can just run the turn over with new fighters each turn.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Laysan Island at 167,96

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 18 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 17

Allied aircraft
F4F-3A Wildcat x 6
SBD-2 Dauntless x 34
TBD-1 Devastator x 14

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3A Wildcat: 1 destroyed
SBD-2 Dauntless: 4 destroyed, 4 damaged
SBD-2 Dauntless: 2 destroyed by flak
TBD-1 Devastator: 3 destroyed, 3 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Shokaku
CV Zuikaku
BB Kirishima

Aircraft Attacking:
10 x SBD-2 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
9 x SBD-2 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
7 x TBD-1 Devastator launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
4 x SBD-2 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-2 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb

_____________________________


"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 10
RE: Midway will not conduct strikes on IJN- need help - 10/19/2012 5:49:06 PM   
godochaos

 

Posts: 273
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline
Great info guys, I think I need to relax my aggression and be patient. I'm expecting 2 much from 2 small squadrons.
In the campaign game that this came up in the 2 Japanese Carriers danced off elsewhere as my 2 carriers arrived, this probably was good fortune for me....

I have to be careful about letting playing against the AI cloud my expectations as I prepare to play against a human.

I'm so glad I asked about this, because I would have gone into a PBEM game with very flawed strategy and expectations.

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 11
RE: Midway will not conduct strikes on IJN- need help - 10/20/2012 8:47:19 PM   
The Gnome


Posts: 1204
Joined: 5/17/2002
From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

I kind of see the problem, but also think the game works out in the long run.

Based on this, the wildly stupid attack by RAF Swordfish on Scharnhorst & Gneisenau or the RAF Vildebeeste from Singapore attacking IJN units at Endau would be impossible, unescorted TB in the face of CAP.
I'm sure there are countless examples from all sides.

In this case, I'd liek to see a "commander fails morale attempt" or " insufficient fighters for escort" message so that I could see what the problem was and be able to swap out my leader or add some more fighters to the base.

But, I can only suggest perservering, the reverse will happen to your AI opponent as much as to you.


Having enhanced messaging from the game engine, like you're suggesting, has always been one of my greatest wishes. I know some wouldn't want it due to FoW reasons, but it could be toggle-able.

That said, why strikes occasionally don't fly from land bases is sometimes a bit of a mystery. I once had a surface group bombard PH in clear weather and none of my planes would fly strikes. It was not dashing in and out of range, bombers had good experience, set to naval attack, and there was no top cover for the target.

I was playing the AI so decided to experiment a bit, and it turned out to be that my search arcs were fubar'd. I figured this out when I made a CV TF and they launched their strikes but the LBA just sat parked neatly on the runway.

I fixed the search arcs and reran the turn again and the bombers flew. So in short, check your search aircraft, maybe the base doesn't "see" the target.

(in reply to JeffK)
Post #: 12
RE: Midway will not conduct strikes on IJN- need help - 10/22/2012 4:28:22 AM   
godochaos

 

Posts: 273
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline
Update, About 10 days passed in game and then the Kaga and Akagi came back to raid shipping at Midway.
I sent Lexington and Sara to take them on because I felt that I had some advantages, Japanese are far from their bases, I have Midway to help(in theory), and if A carrier gets hit bad the planes on it can flee to Midway.
Well the US got in the 1st strikes on the Japanese on day 1 from both US Carriers. We got about 2-4 hits on each carrier, one had heavy fires. then the Lexington got hit and it ate 2 bombs and 2 torps, I thought it was sunk and the carrier aircraft fled to Midway to Land. It turns out the damage was not too bad. During day 1 of this battle of Midway the SBD's on Midway did not fly at all.
Day 2. The Lexington limps home to PH and the Saratoga pursues. Our strikes from Sara hit the Japanese carriers and they have no cap because of the dmg they took on day 1. both carriers Kaga and Akagi and 2xCA's sunk. Heavy losses to USA air crews on carriers but well worth it.
SBD dive bombers from Midway refused to fly on either day. the SBD's from the damaged Lexington that fled to Midway on day 1, they flew strikes. but the full strength SBD garrison of Midway never flew once.
I cannot explain this why these land based bombers won't fly, sure i can see reasons when the Jap carriers were full health, but no explanation now. it makes no sense to me, I must have a bug with that group or something.

(in reply to The Gnome)
Post #: 13
RE: Midway will not conduct strikes on IJN- need help - 10/22/2012 5:49:04 AM   
JeffK


Posts: 5208
Joined: 1/26/2005
From: Back in the Office, Can I get my tin hut back!
Status: offline
What is the experience & morale of your USN SBD's and compare to the USMC SBD's?

Also, sometimes shift around airgroups might help, sometimes I FEEL things get "hooked up" and dont work.

_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to godochaos)
Post #: 14
RE: Midway will not conduct strikes on IJN- need help - 10/24/2012 1:29:15 AM   
godochaos

 

Posts: 273
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline
The SBD's in question are SBD-1's with 50 experience and Morale 99

Update 3
Another week or so passed and the Japanese have launched their 3rd Raid on Midway this time sending a CA and a few destroyers. The planes on Midway are now bolstered by the refugees from the damaged Carrier Lexington. The refugees DB's have fun bombing the daylights out of the CA, the USMC SBD unit of 18 planes once again flys no missions. I think I am going to upgrade them to SBD-3's and see if that snaps them out of their lethargy


(in reply to JeffK)
Post #: 15
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Midway will not conduct strikes on IJN- need help Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.086