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RE: Soryu - fastest capital ship ever built?

 
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RE: Soryu - fastest capital ship ever built? - 10/18/2012 1:39:38 AM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

One factor in favor of the CVNs is the fact that they can go at top speed (even if that is slightly less than other conventional craft) for a LONG time without refueling. When I was on the Constellation (CV 64) at full power we calculated that it used enough oil in 24 hours to power a reasonable efficient car to the sun and back. This is the sort of thing you do when keeping the world safe from democracy while cruising in the Indian Ocean.... I was also on the Bainbridge (DLGN 25 later CGN 25) for a year and while in the IO (I spent a lot of time there!) we had a medical case in the squadron with no airlift assets at hand so we took the patient aboard and did a high speed run to Diago Garcia (2000 miles or so to the south) at over 25 knots the entire time.... no other surface vessel other than the Long Beach at the time could have done that. The sailor lived by the way, no small outcome! Hal


You must have missed my post. The Sea Land Galloway "cruised" on a regular run between New York to Bremerhaven (6,040.20240081 kilometres) at 28 knots. This was in 1978 and there were eight of this class ship in operation at the time. So, at least eight ships could have done this feat... They were also designed to sail at full cruising speed in the worst North Atlantic conditions. You would be amazed at the pounding they took. They were twin screw and the boilers were massive. I doubt there will ever be another ship like them ever built. Here is what they looked like before they were sold to the Navy.






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RE: Soryu - fastest capital ship ever built? - 10/18/2012 2:13:28 AM   
RevRick


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I know someone who was a sailor on a Gearing class DD in Vietnam. He claims he saw the CVN Enterprise do 70 knots once, but those who know more about hydrodynamics and ship design say that's impossible. I would probably lean towards the impossible, however there have been many times "impossible" things have been done. Somewhere in the 40 knot range might be possible though.

The sailor on the DD said the carrier was putting up a rooster tail as high as the flight deck before it disappeared over the horizon.

Bill


That sounds like a sea story to me. But, there was a RD2 on my ship who swore that they tracked her on radar at 42 kts.


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RE: Soryu - fastest capital ship ever built? - 10/18/2012 6:02:41 AM   
wdolson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili
No. Engineering impossibilities are ...impossible. 70kt would need an outrageous amount of power plus being able to apply it to the water, an in return be able to sustain all extra vibrations and shock. It is dangerous the almost like mythology about aircraft carriers for Americans. It is just a tool.


Propellers lose efficiency the faster they spin. You get separation of the fluid or air starting at the tips and working in as it spins faster. I know it's true for air propellers (which is why prop planes can't break the sound barrier), I believe it's true for water props too. I would suspect a ship could move faster if it had some kind of water jet propulsion.

Bill

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RE: Soryu - fastest capital ship ever built? - 10/18/2012 9:26:07 AM   
janh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Justus2
quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11
Hi all,




Leo "Apollo11"


Captain: WHAT!! What do you mean we forgot the coffee?? TURN AROUND!


Jeez, must have been stunning to be onboard on that run. Awesome picture. I imagine that's how it could have looked with a torpedo alert in the waters of iceland.

They probably bolted down every coffee cup for that run? I guess stores and such are planned for that, but how would planes in the hangers take that?

And how long could a CVN sustain such a speed? How many hours or days before an extended overhaul of the whole machinery would be due?

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RE: Soryu - fastest capital ship ever built? - 10/18/2012 9:33:16 AM   
janh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1
You really need to know under what conditions/specs the "trials" were run. A lot of ships built before WW II racked up impressive trials speeds (the Italians were notorious for it), but then proved totally incapable of reaching them under wr service conditions.


Are there any standard conditions for trials? Or are they "uncomparable"? I imagine the Italians used the currents in the Mediterranean to their advantages. That probably can get you a few knots more.

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson
Propellers lose efficiency the faster they spin. You get separation of the fluid or air starting at the tips and working in as it spins faster. I know it's true for air propellers (which is why prop planes can't break the sound barrier), I believe it's true for water props too. I would suspect a ship could move faster if it had some kind of water jet propulsion.

Bill


I think what you are talking off is cavitation at the propeller tips? I recall for the Seawolf's and the Virginia's the introduced special designs to reduce this issue. Propellers and propulsion on SS(B)N are probably among the best kept secrets. Didn't the Virginia's use something similar to pump-jets to reduce cavitation?

With such large vessels, a simple option aside from spinning faster might be spinning bigger, though?

< Message edited by janh -- 10/18/2012 9:35:45 AM >

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RE: Soryu - fastest capital ship ever built? - 10/18/2012 11:44:21 AM   
tocaff


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Back during the Cold War a company from Scandanavia (Norway?) sold the Soviet Union milling machine to make propellers that wouldn't cavitate like the ones they were using. Toshiba sold them the computers and software to run the machines. NATO had fits over it and the US gov't wouldn't allow bids for contracts from these 2 companies for years.

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RE: Soryu - fastest capital ship ever built? - 10/18/2012 1:29:47 PM   
Chris H

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,




Leo "Apollo11"


You think your a smart pilot, now land if you can

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Post #: 37
RE: Soryu - fastest capital ship ever built? - 10/18/2012 2:12:56 PM   
Chris H

 

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The fastest RN ships were the Abdiel class minelayers at 40 kts (actually 39.75 or something like that) but reportedly the Manxman once reach 42.5kts, possible with the right sea/wind conditions (and going down hill). Later in life I think she only operated with three boilers but even so could still shift.


I was on a County class destroyer (Hampshire) in 1965 doing speed trials and she was doing 30-32 kts, but shock so badly you could do virtually nothing. The Manxman, also on speed trials, passed us. Watched by many of the Hampshire's crew the site of a large ship at speed is an unforgetable site. She wasn't doing 40 kts but must have at least 5-6 kts faster than us.

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RE: Soryu - fastest capital ship ever built? - 10/18/2012 5:02:37 PM   
Dili

 

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quote:

Are there any standard conditions for trials? Or are they "uncomparable"? I imagine the Italians used the currents in the Mediterranean to their advantages. That probably can get you a few knots more.


Every navy had their standarts or lack of, the italians when there was a premium to shipyards about every knot in earlier 30's they put ship very light to achieve speed levels that never in service were achieved. In late 30's that rule changed and the issue wasn't a problem. The italian crusiers went for more armor in late 30's instead of speed. Produced in war the light Romani cruisers or large destroyers seems to have been able to do in service the 40kt they made in trials. They were able to outrun the British MTB in a fight in Messina strait .

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RE: Soryu - fastest capital ship ever built? - 10/18/2012 5:25:36 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: janh

quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1
You really need to know under what conditions/specs the "trials" were run. A lot of ships built before WW II racked up impressive trials speeds (the Italians were notorious for it), but then proved totally incapable of reaching them under wr service conditions.


Are there any standard conditions for trials? Or are they "uncomparable"? I imagine the Italians used the currents in the Mediterranean to their advantages. That probably can get you a few knots more.



There were "standard conditions" set in the Washington Naval Treaty. Shipbuilders use to "cheat" on them during speed trials because thay got a bonus for higher speeds. The Italians were the worst at this, one set of "trials" being run without the main armament being installed. Needless to say, once all the left off equipment WAS installed, the ships never made those speeds again. British Captains were surprised several times in WW II to find themselves overhauling Italian ships that were SUPPOSED to be 4-5 knots faster than their own.

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Post #: 40
RE: Soryu - fastest capital ship ever built? - 10/18/2012 6:43:32 PM   
Shark7


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I guess it depends on whether or not you consider a destroyer a capital ship. Under modern standards, I believe they are:

Here some numbers and names to think about

Fantasque Class - 45 knts
Shimikaze Class - 40 knts
Alpha Class Submarine - 45 knts submerged

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RE: Soryu - fastest capital ship ever built? - 10/18/2012 6:57:54 PM   
Fallschirmjager


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

I guess it depends on whether or not you consider a destroyer a capital ship. Under modern standards, I believe they are:




For many navies missile gunboats are capital ships now. But with modern surface to surface naval launches missiles, a modern gunboat could sink a WW2 era Baltimore class heavy cruiser.

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RE: Soryu - fastest capital ship ever built? - 10/18/2012 7:34:53 PM   
US87891

 

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email I was asked to post
quote:

If anyone is really interested in high-speed ship design and the technical truths of just how fast a ship can go, I’d invite ya’ll to Google Daniel Savitsky and check out some of his papers on this very subject.

He’s the (Stephens) Emeritus Professor at the Stephens Institute of Technology and has done much of his work for DTMB of NSWC in development of ship design. His (numerous) papers for SNAME are notable for their clarity and understandability by readers of moderate technical training but whose expertise falls outside the genre. So in response to all the apochryphal story tellers, there is hydronamics and then there is aliens. Believe what ya want.

@Wdolson, Bill, you will probably get a hit on his SNAME article on High Speed Monohulls from 2003 (defining the design parameters of a 50kt logistics ship). Important not so much for the ship params, but he details propulsion specs and talks about cavitating, transcavitating, supercavitating props, their design, advantages, disadvantages, and has a very nice section on water-jet propulsion. It’s a bit dated and doesn’t have the latest and greatest from Germany and Japan, but it’s nevertheless valid for his design regime.

He is very good at identifying the various propulsor types, by name. His analyses aren’t so much dispositive as they are pointers to further study. Just take a look at the Newton-Rader trans cavitating prop, introduced in 1961, and tweaked ever since.



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RE: Soryu - fastest capital ship ever built? - 10/18/2012 10:27:00 PM   
Dili

 

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quote:

British Captains were surprised several times in WW II to find themselves overhauling Italian ships

I don't think that happened except with Espero convoy, but they were DD in fast transport mission full of troops.

quote:

But with modern surface to surface naval launches missiles, a modern gunboat could sink a WW2 era Baltimore class heavy cruiser.


With 8 missles the heavier ones it could sink a carrier.

Btw in WW1 a PT did sink a BB so it is not something new.

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RE: Soryu - fastest capital ship ever built? - 10/18/2012 11:50:30 PM   
Chris H

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: janh

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justus2
quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11
Hi all,




Leo "Apollo11"


Captain: WHAT!! What do you mean we forgot the coffee?? TURN AROUND!


Jeez, must have been stunning to be onboard on that run. Awesome picture. I imagine that's how it could have looked with a torpedo alert in the waters of iceland.

They probably bolted down every coffee cup for that run? I guess stores and such are planned for that, but how would planes in the hangers take that?

And how long could a CVN sustain such a speed? How many hours or days before an extended overhaul of the whole machinery would be due?



Basically the ship is cleared for action, everything that can be is tied down, no loose gear, galss taped, a/c fasted to deck bolts etc. Changing course so quickly is not something that would occur often, hopefully. But if it did then you could expect significant damge to occur to onboard equipment and men. Any unexpected turn at speed is more likely to hurt the crew than equipment.

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Post #: 45
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