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Supply & Control clarification

 
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Supply & Control clarification - 10/12/2012 10:58:14 AM   
yvesp


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Hello,

I was wondering about that situation:
Japan is at war with France and declares war on Columbia.
The USA is neutral and aligns Columbia.
Netherlands is aligned with France.

0) US units can freely enter Columbia and draw supply through it; even though they cooperate (18.1.3) and the USA contains primary sources for Columbia (2.4.2, primary sources), these cannot be reached because the USA are neutral (2.4.2 bullet 3) and don't let any supply path enter its territory.
1) Even if it gets USA's approval (11.11.5), France cannot move units inside Columbia (USA not active 11.11.5)
2) However, French can recapture Japanese captured hexes in Columbia. This doesn't require foreign troop commitment because French is major and Columbia minor (18.2); however, sending Netherland do the job would require foreign troop commitment (because the hex still technically is Columbian home country and Netherland is minor.) In both cases this requires USA approval (technically, French and Netherland units are still entering a country controlled by the USA).
3) French and Netherland units inside Columbia (on recaptured territory) can draw supply through Columbian hexes; this doesn't require USA's approval (2.4.2 2 does't apply because the hexes are not USA's)
3) Recaptured hexes are now under French control (2.5); the USA cannot draw supply through them unless the French agree (2.4.2 bullet 2).
4) USA or Columbian units cannot move into an empty hex previously captured by the Japanese or recaptured by the French(11.11.4).
5) Columbian units manage a breakthrough into Venezuela which was conquered by the Japanese and capture all hexes that form Venezuela. Captured hexes are Columbian (not USA because it is neutral; 2.5)
6) Venezuela cannot be liberated (because Columbia is a minor; 13.7.5); even when the USA become active, it still won't be possible to liberate Venezuela.
7) Venezuela is not "conquered" by Columbia (because (a) Columbia is a minor and (b) Venezuela was anyway already conquered ; it could only be liberated)
8) Caracas is not a secondary supply source for anybody because it is controlled by Columbia, a minor (2.4.2). Even when the USA enter the war, Caracas will not be a secondary supply source for the USA unless it is captured again then retaken by the USA or USA allied units.
8) Netherland or French units cannot enter Columbian controlled hexes in Venezuela (still because USA is not active); however they can recapture Japanese controlled hexes there without requiring any approval.
9) Netherland or French units can draw supply through Columbian controlled hexes in Venezuela as in (3). This does not require approval (because the hexes are not controlled by a major power 2.4.2 bullet 2).
10) Now Russia declares war to Japan (but not Germany); Finland is aligned with Russia; Russia and Finland can send troops to Columbia or Venezuela provided the USA accepts, but only to recapture Japanese controlled hexes or enter French recaptured hexes; the latter doesn't require French approval.
11) Finland must meet the foreign troops requirements but not Russia if in Columbia even though they can occiped only French controlled hexes (or hexes they might themselves later capture).
12) Russian and Finland units can freely draw supply through Columbian controlled hexes.
13) Russian units cannot even ask for access into French controlled hexes for supply purposes (2.4.2 bullet 7) but can freely use french minors (such as an aligned Belgium) to pass supply without requiring approval.
14) Finland units can freely use the territory of any French minor to pass supply on, but requires the French approval for drawing through French controlled territory.
15) Finland's HQ is still in Columbia and the only ever possible supply chain must pass through France proper. Finland units adjacent to that HQ are in supply. A Russian unit is not (because the supply path has to pass through forbidden territory, i.e. France).
16) Russian units are free to enter Venezuelan hexes under French control (11.11.5: Venezuela is not controlled by a friendly power, so it is not necessary to gain approval); they can draw supply through adjacent hexes if they are not French (because the supply chain flows from the unit toward the source ; even if the hex it is in doesn't let supply flow, the first hex really checked is adjacent). However, if all surrounding hexes are French, the unit will necessarily be out of supply, even if adjacent to a Russian HQ itself in supply.

a) Italy is neutral. Germany cannot draw supply through Italian hexes (because 2.4.2 bullet 3 prevents it.)
b) Italy is neutral. Germany cannot draw supply through Albania (a minor aligned to Italy) because it is neutral too.
c) Italy is at war with Russia, Commonwealth and France are at war with Germany. (a) and (b) above now are wrong (provided Italy agrees in the case of (a) only)

Is all of this a correct interpretation of the rules ?

How is "agreement" handled by the Computer Game (for supply, right to enter units...) ?

Yves

< Message edited by yvesp -- 10/12/2012 2:45:23 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Supply & Control clarification - 10/12/2012 11:18:48 AM   
Orm


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Just on a lunch break so here is a short answer. USSR may not align Persia when neutral (see RAW 19.2). If CW is only active MP and denies to align Persia then Persia will become conquered at once.

Longer answer later if needed.

_____________________________

"It would seem that you have no useful skill or talent whatsoever," he said.
"Have you thought of going into teaching?"

(in reply to yvesp)
Post #: 2
RE: Supply & Control clarification - 10/12/2012 11:26:18 AM   
yvesp


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Yes ; missed the "active" in 19.2. Scenario sounded strange. I'll write it again.

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 3
RE: Supply & Control clarification - 10/12/2012 4:20:08 PM   
michaelbaldur


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From: denmark
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and USA cant align Columbia while neutral

so if axis declares war on a minor on the American map. they get a automatic conquest

< Message edited by michaelbaldur -- 10/12/2012 4:23:52 PM >


_____________________________

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I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

(in reply to yvesp)
Post #: 4
RE: Supply & Control clarification - 10/12/2012 4:24:15 PM   
yvesp


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Joined: 9/12/2008
Status: offline
It can.
Read Raw 19.2.

"If an Axis major power declares war on a minor country on the
American map, it may only align with the USA"

There is no if or whatever; that's the first condition set for choosing a controlling power.
I have no doubt about this.

The condition about the major power being active comes after that:

"In every other case, when one or more major powers declare war
on a minor country, choose an active major power on the other side
to align with it"

And it makes it clear by that "In every other case" that the USA could be neutral.
Otherwise, the rules would be written the other way around.

Yves

< Message edited by yvesp -- 10/12/2012 4:32:15 PM >

(in reply to michaelbaldur)
Post #: 5
RE: Supply & Control clarification - 10/12/2012 4:39:11 PM   
michaelbaldur


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From: denmark
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ahhh its a exception from the active rule


a funny little note to this. it is coded correctly in the game

< Message edited by michaelbaldur -- 10/12/2012 4:51:11 PM >


_____________________________

Peyton manning is a God and the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

(in reply to yvesp)
Post #: 6
RE: Supply & Control clarification - 10/12/2012 7:23:58 PM   
Extraneous

 

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quote:

From the RAW.

19.2 Entering the war
A minor country enters the war when:
A major power declares war on it (it joins the other side); or
It aligns with a major power (see 9.8 Aligning minors).

If a minor country aligns with a major power, it is controlled by that major power.

If an Axis major power declares war on a minor country on the American map, it may only align with the USA.

When Germany makes her compulsory declaration of war on Poland (see 9.3 Compulsory declarations), it may only align with the Commonwealth.

In every other case, when one or more major powers declare war on a minor country, choose an active major power on the other side to align with it.

If there is more than one eligible major power, offer the minor to the major power whose capital city is closest to the minorís capital (any home country in the case of the Commonwealth). If it declines, offer it to the next closest, and so on.

If every eligible major power declines, the minor (and all its controlled minors and territories) is immediately conquered by the attacking major power (see 13.7.1 Conquest).



The USA would be able to send Peacekeepers (see 9.9 Multiple states of war) to Columbia.

US Entry Action
20. Axis declares war on 7 any American country 1 US entry chit and 20% chance of another.

Possible US Entry Action
21. Allies support attacked minor - the Allies have supported an attacked minor country if there are at least 4 Allied corps or armies in the minorís unconquered home country during the Allied minor support step of the same turn an Axis major power declared war on it. Soviet units in east Poland donít count and neither do the minorís own units. 70% chance of a US entry chit.


0) US units can move by sea.
1) True
2) False French and Netherlands can enter Columbia a USA minor power if the hex is Japanese controlled.
quote:

A unit may not enter or attack a hex (or units therein) controlled by a major power on the other side that it isnít at war with. However it can attack a hex controlled by an enemy major power or minor country even if the hex contains units it is not at war with.

3) True USA and France co-operate.
quote:


A primary supply source for a unit is:
ē any friendly city in the unitís unconquered home country; or
ē for a Commonwealth unit, any friendly city in another unconquered Commonwealth home country; or
ē any friendly city in an unconquered home country of a major power the unit co-operates with (see 18.1).

4) False Japan and Columbia are at war. Columbia can enter. 11.11.4 Neutral major powers USA cannot.
5,6 & 7) The hexes become USA not Columbian. (Also see 13.7.5 Liberation)
quote:

13.7.1 Conquest
Minor countries never conquer anything. The home country or territory is instead conquered by the minorís controlling major power (unless it is not at war, see 2.5 Control).

quote:

19.4 Minor country units
Restrictions on use
Minor country units can move and fight outside their home country. However, you can only move a minor country land or aircraft unit outside the home country controlled by the minor, if half or more of its on map land and aircraft units are currently inside its home country (exception: Rumania becomes a full Axis ally ~ see 19.6.2).

8) Caracas is controlled by the USA unless the USA liberates it (see 13.7.5 Liberation). True on France and Netherlands.
9) False its because USA and France co-operate.
10) Not French hexes. France and USSR don't co-operate.
11) False USA and USSR don't co-operate (see 19.4 Minor country units ~ Restrictions on use)
12) False USA and USSR don't co-operate.
13) True if it is USSR aligned.
14) False France and USSR don't co-operate Finland is part of the USSR.
15) False France and USSR don't co-operate Finland is part of the USSR.
16) False USA and USSR don't co-operate. Venezuela would be Liberated or controlled by the USA.

A, B & C) True


_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to michaelbaldur)
Post #: 7
RE: Supply & Control clarification - 10/12/2012 7:32:19 PM   
Extraneous

 

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30. Allies align minor (Columbia) (Ge/It) 50% for a chit removed.

_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 8
RE: Supply & Control clarification - 10/12/2012 11:51:25 PM   
yvesp


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2) Possibly; But what is the definition for 'enter a country':

quote:

units cannot enter a country controlled by another power on
their side without permission of the owner


Is it any hex in the country, or controlled hex in the country ?
What is country anyway for this rule ?

3) No they don't cooperate:
quote:

Units controlled by a neutral major power donít co-operate
with units from, or controlled by, another major power.


4) You are right, Columbian can enter.

5-6-7) The hexes become Columbians. Question still valid.

quote:

However, hexes taken from an enemy major power (or
its controlled minors) are controlled by the major power taking
them regardless of whether those hexes are taken by units of the
major power or its controlled minors, unless the major powers are
not at war with each other (in which case the hexes are controlled
by the minor country taking them)


8) See above
9) No, they don't
10) I'd say it can despite non cooperating.
quote:

You can move a land unit controlled by an active major power into
any hex controlled by:
ē that major power and its aligned minors; or
ē another active major power on the same side (or its controlled
minor countries); or
ē a major power or minor country it is at war with.


11) For me, that a problem with 11.11.5 and the fact that the USA is not active. Hence it doesn't enter any legal category that allows movement. In the same way, that rule would not prvent France from moving any unit in Finland, despite non-cooperation with Russia. Well, my interpretation.
quote:

You can move a land unit controlled by an active major power into
any hex controlled by:
that major power and its aligned minors; or
ē another active major power on the same side (or its controlled
minor countries); or
ē a major power or minor country it is at war with.


12) I believe it can ; I see no rule preventing non cooperating powers to draw supply through minors.
The closest match (bullet 2) limits the rule to major power controlled hexes (not heir minors), and doesn't mention cooperation (only approval)
quote:

You canít trace any supply path:
ē into an enemy ZOC (unless the hex contains a friendly land
unit); or
ē into a hex controlled by another major power unless it agrees;
or
ē into a hex controlled by a neutral country (exception: Vichy
territory ~ see 17.4 and Sweden ~ see 19.7); or
ē across an alpine hexside; or
ē across a lake hexside (except when frozen); or
ē across an all sea hexside that isnít a straits hexside (except as
an overseas supply path); or
ē for any Soviet unit, into a hex controlled by any other Allied
major power (and vice versa) unless the USSR is at war with
Germany


13) I don't understand; USSR is aligned because at war with Japan. Do you have something in mind ?

14-15) You may be right. The trick here is that, no, Finland units are not Russian units, hence not bound by the specific supply rule (bullet 7); furthermore, cooperation doesn't seem to have any impact on legal supply path, besides that special rule. I may be wrong. Only alignement and, in the case of any major power territory, approval.

16) we can only disagree here since with disagree on 6-7-8 which is a premise.


Thanks for taking time to analyze this cases.

Yves

< Message edited by yvesp -- 10/12/2012 11:54:46 PM >

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 9
RE: Supply & Control clarification - 10/13/2012 1:55:53 AM   
paulderynck


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How does Finland ever get aligned with Russia? Is this a Days of Decision game? Or did the Axis declare war on it? If so, why would they?

How do Russian units get to Venezuela? They don't have any TRS that can make it and they don't cooperate with anyone that does.


< Message edited by paulderynck -- 10/13/2012 1:59:25 AM >


_____________________________

Paul

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Post #: 10
RE: Supply & Control clarification - 10/13/2012 8:05:50 AM   
yvesp


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quote:

How does Finland ever get aligned with Russia? Is this a Days of Decision game? Or did the Axis declare war on it? If so, why would they?

How do Russian units get to Venezuela? They don't have any TRS that can make it and they don't cooperate with anyone that does.


The situation is not the issue.
Whatever you may believe, it is a possible situation, however unlikely (no more than one game in a thousand; maybe less.)
I'm thinking "out of the box" ; that's they only way to think about all possible situations which a game may at some time have to handle.

Not doing so is the best recipe for bugs.

1) Yes, the axis can declare war on Finland.
2) Not cooperating is not the issue; using minor territories is always an option. Moving a HQ will fullfill any required foreign commitment rules if the unis has to stop in a major (England, France); so a TRS can hop a HQ in a few impulses or turns (likely 2 are enough)

Yves

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 11
RE: Supply & Control clarification - 10/13/2012 9:06:08 AM   
Orm


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quote:

0) US units can freely enter Columbia and draw supply through it; even though they cooperate (18.1.3) and the USA contains primary sources for Columbia (2.4.2, primary sources), these cannot be reached because the USA are neutral (2.4.2 bullet 3) and don't let any supply path enter its territory.

I am troubled by this. I always assumed that all units aligned to the neutral country could draw supply through the said country. This would always affect the Mongolian cavalry that would be allowed to leave Mongolia but not draw supply through USSR. I am not sure that interpretation was intended by that paragraph.

_____________________________

"It would seem that you have no useful skill or talent whatsoever," he said.
"Have you thought of going into teaching?"

(in reply to yvesp)
Post #: 12
RE: Supply & Control clarification - 10/13/2012 10:13:24 AM   
Orm


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Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
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quote:

ORIGINAL: yvesp

Hello,

I was wondering about that situation:
Japan is at war with France and declares war on Columbia.
The USA is neutral and aligns Columbia.
Netherlands is aligned with France.

0) US units can freely enter Columbia and draw supply through it; even though they cooperate (18.1.3) and the USA contains primary sources for Columbia (2.4.2, primary sources), these cannot be reached because the USA are neutral (2.4.2 bullet 3) and don't let any supply path enter its territory.
1) Even if it gets USA's approval (11.11.5), France cannot move units inside Columbia (USA not active 11.11.5)
2) However, French can recapture Japanese captured hexes in Columbia. This doesn't require foreign troop commitment because French is major and Columbia minor (18.2); however, sending Netherland do the job would require foreign troop commitment (because the hex still technically is Columbian home country and Netherland is minor.) In both cases this requires USA approval (technically, French and Netherland units are still entering a country controlled by the USA).
3) French and Netherland units inside Columbia (on recaptured territory) can draw supply through Columbian hexes; this doesn't require USA's approval (2.4.2 2 does't apply because the hexes are not USA's)
3) Recaptured hexes are now under French control (2.5); the USA cannot draw supply through them unless the French agree (2.4.2 bullet 2).
4) USA or Columbian units cannot move into an empty hex previously captured by the Japanese or recaptured by the French(11.11.4).
5) Columbian units manage a breakthrough into Venezuela which was conquered by the Japanese and capture all hexes that form Venezuela. Captured hexes are Columbian (not USA because it is neutral; 2.5)
6) Venezuela cannot be liberated (because Columbia is a minor; 13.7.5); even when the USA become active, it still won't be possible to liberate Venezuela.
No. USA can liberate Venezuela after it goes to war with Japan because the hexes are then transfered to US control.

RAW: 2.5 Control
....
If a minor country controls enemy major power (or its controlled minors) hexes and the minor's controlling
major power comes to war with that major power, then those hexes immediately become controlled by the minor's
controlling major power.

quote:


7) Venezuela is not "conquered" by Columbia (because (a) Columbia is a minor and (b) Venezuela was anyway already conquered ; it could only be liberated)
Yes.
quote:


8) Caracas is not a secondary supply source for anybody because it is controlled by Columbia, a minor (2.4.2). Even when the USA enter the war, Caracas will not be a secondary supply source for the USA unless it is captured again then retaken by the USA or USA allied units.
No recapturing needed. US receive control to make it a secondary supply source once US enters war with Japan.

RAW: 2.5 Control
....
If a minor country controls enemy major power (or its controlled minors) hexes and the minor's controlling
major power comes to war with that major power, then those hexes immediately become controlled by the minor's
controlling major power.

quote:



8) Netherland or French units cannot enter Columbian controlled hexes in Venezuela (still because USA is not active); however they can recapture Japanese controlled hexes there without requiring any approval.
9) Netherland or French units can draw supply through Columbian controlled hexes in Venezuela as in (3). This does not require approval (because the hexes are not controlled by a major power 2.4.2 bullet 2).
True. But once US is at war with Japan permission will be needed.

RAW: 2.5 Control
....
If a minor country controls enemy major power (or its controlled minors) hexes and the minor's controlling
major power comes to war with that major power, then those hexes immediately become controlled by the minor's
controlling major power.

quote:




10) Now Russia declares war to Japan (but not Germany); Finland is aligned with Russia; Russia and Finland can send troops to Columbia or Venezuela provided the USA accepts, but only to recapture Japanese controlled hexes or enter French recaptured hexes; the latter doesn't require French approval.
Yes, US approval is enough to enter including the French controlled hexes
quote:


11) Finland must meet the foreign troops requirements but not Russia if in Columbia even though they can occiped only French controlled hexes (or hexes they might themselves later capture).
12) Russian and Finland units can freely draw supply through Columbian controlled hexes.
13) Russian units cannot even ask for access into French controlled hexes for supply purposes (2.4.2 bullet 7) but can freely use french minors (such as an aligned Belgium) to pass supply without requiring approval.
14) Finland units can freely use the territory of any French minor to pass supply on, but requires the French approval for drawing through French controlled territory.
15) Finland's HQ is still in Columbia and the only ever possible supply chain must pass through France proper. Finland units adjacent to that HQ are in supply. A Russian unit is not (because the supply path has to pass through forbidden territory, i.e. France).
I am confused. Why must supply chain pass through France proper? Shouldn't a HQ on a coastal hex be able to draw sea supply back to Finland or USSR without passing through any French hexes? And hexes still under Colombian control could be used?
quote:


16) Russian units are free to enter Venezuelan hexes under French control (11.11.5: Venezuela is not controlled by a friendly power, so it is not necessary to gain approval); they can draw supply through adjacent hexes if they are not French (because the supply chain flows from the unit toward the source ; even if the hex it is in doesn't let supply flow, the first hex really checked is adjacent). However, if all surrounding hexes are French, the unit will necessarily be out of supply, even if adjacent to a Russian HQ itself in supply.

a) Italy is neutral. Germany cannot draw supply through Italian hexes (because 2.4.2 bullet 3 prevents it.)
b) Italy is neutral. Germany cannot draw supply through Albania (a minor aligned to Italy) because it is neutral too.
c) Italy is at war with Russia, Commonwealth and France are at war with Germany. (a) and (b) above now are wrong (provided Italy agrees in the case of (a) only)

Is all of this a correct interpretation of the rules ?

How is "agreement" handled by the Computer Game (for supply, right to enter units...) ?

Yves



< Message edited by Orm -- 10/13/2012 10:14:46 AM >


_____________________________

"It would seem that you have no useful skill or talent whatsoever," he said.
"Have you thought of going into teaching?"

(in reply to yvesp)
Post #: 13
RE: Supply & Control clarification - 10/13/2012 10:19:31 AM   
Orm


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Joined: 5/3/2008
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quote:

a) Italy is neutral. Germany cannot draw supply through Italian hexes (because 2.4.2 bullet 3 prevents it.)
b) Italy is neutral. Germany cannot draw supply through Albania (a minor aligned to Italy) because it is neutral too.
c) Italy is at war with Russia, Commonwealth and France are at war with Germany. (a) and (b) above now are wrong (provided Italy agrees in the case of (a) only)

Is all of this a correct interpretation of the rules ?

How is "agreement" handled by the Computer Game (for supply, right to enter units...) ?

Yes. It is all correct.

Steve has previously declared that in MWIF all countries automatically agree to allow supply and permissions to enter and so on.

_____________________________

"It would seem that you have no useful skill or talent whatsoever," he said.
"Have you thought of going into teaching?"

(in reply to yvesp)
Post #: 14
RE: Supply & Control clarification - 10/13/2012 5:50:26 PM   
paulderynck


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Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: yvesp

quote:

How does Finland ever get aligned with Russia? Is this a Days of Decision game? Or did the Axis declare war on it? If so, why would they?

How do Russian units get to Venezuela? They don't have any TRS that can make it and they don't cooperate with anyone that does.


The situation is not the issue.
Whatever you may believe, it is a possible situation, however unlikely (no more than one game in a thousand; maybe less.)
I'm thinking "out of the box" ; that's they only way to think about all possible situations which a game may at some time have to handle.

Not doing so is the best recipe for bugs.

1) Yes, the axis can declare war on Finland.
2) Not cooperating is not the issue; using minor territories is always an option. Moving a HQ will fullfill any required foreign commitment rules if the unis has to stop in a major (England, France); so a TRS can hop a HQ in a few impulses or turns (likely 2 are enough)

Yves

Yes a few odd situations are good for playtesting and identifying bugs. No, a situation like you have come up with is not useful.

It should be something that is within the realm of possibility, not 1 in a thousand, and even that is a tall claim. The game is complicated enough to debug with just the "normal" stuff happening and if your situation somehow came up (without being completely contrived) than if it breaks the coding, I guess that is just unfortunate.

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to yvesp)
Post #: 15
RE: Supply & Control clarification - 10/13/2012 7:16:51 PM   
yvesp


Posts: 1859
Joined: 9/12/2008
Status: offline
quote:

Yes a few odd situations are good for playtesting and identifying bugs. No, a situation like you have come up with is not useful.


Well ; depends how you see it.
If the game is for exemple to evolve into a day of decision one day (once everything works correctly, that's not a far shot), then such situations will be quite common. What then ?

Either you start from a buggy base (like Steve did) and lose a hell of a time straightening things; I guess nobody would do again what Steve has done! Or you let go. Or you arrange things so that the base is not buggy and can strongly handle all identified situations.

In programming, the difficulty is not coding stuff. The difficulty is having a clear view of what is to be done. Any specifications can then be coded.

Yves

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 16
RE: Supply & Control clarification - 10/13/2012 8:49:24 PM   
paulderynck


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BTW, in your examples, it may be important to know that Harry has ruled that once a major or minor country is conquered, Foreign Troop Commitment no longer applies to entering it. It is no longer a home country in that event.

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to yvesp)
Post #: 17
RE: Supply & Control clarification - 10/13/2012 9:50:24 PM   
yvesp


Posts: 1859
Joined: 9/12/2008
Status: offline
quote:

BTW, in your examples, it may be important to know that Harry has ruled that once a major or minor country is conquered, Foreign Troop Commitment no longer applies to entering it. It is no longer a home country in that event.


Indeed! Actually, I always thought that was logical, but I fail to read it in the RAW.
But it's good to know that's official.

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 18
RE: Supply & Control clarification - 10/13/2012 10:03:58 PM   
yvesp


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Joined: 9/12/2008
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quote:

No recapturing needed. US receive control to make it a secondary supply source once US enters war with Japan.


That's not how I read the rule you cite: In my example, Columbia doesn't control enemy major power hexes. It controls Venezuela's hexes, i.e. a minor country hexes, recaptured from japanese control. Not exactly the same. But I may be wrong.

Then there is the interesting situation where the USA goes to war against Germany, but not Japan. Then I think the situation as I describe stays valid because that rule doesn't fire.

The disagreement that come later derive from this diverging interpretation.

quote:

I am confused. Why must supply chain pass through France proper?


Well, the idea is to build a scenario to explore how rules work together in some difficult situations. As I said in another post, that's a cerebral exercise. How the military situation might evolve to reach such an implausible scenario is not my point of view. Say I'm learning to be a rule lawyer .


< Message edited by yvesp -- 10/13/2012 10:05:45 PM >

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 19
RE: Supply & Control clarification - 10/14/2012 1:51:24 AM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1684
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:

From the RAW
2.5 Control
Changing control
Control of a hex changes when:
An enemy land unit (except for 13.1 Partisans Option 46, and supply units ~ see 22.4.10 Supply units (MiF option 6)) enters it (the major power entering with the most factors if more than one); or
An island, territory, minor country or major power is conquered (see 13.7.1 Conquest); or
France is declared Vichy (see 17. Vichy France); or
It is a communist Chinese-controlled city entered by a nationalist Chinese land unit or vice versa; or during the liberation step you return control to the original owner (see 13.7.5, reversion).

Note that even though major powers may control minor countries (see 9.8 Aligning minors & 13.7.1 Conquest), it is the minors themselves that control hexes in that minor. However, hexes taken from an enemy major power (or its controlled minors) are controlled by the major power taking them regardless of whether those hexes are taken by units of the major power or its controlled minors, unless the major powers are not at war with each other (in which case the hexes are controlled by the minor country taking them). If a minor country controls enemy major power (or its controlled minors) hexes and the minorís controlling major power comes to war with that major power, then those hexes immediately become controlled by the minorís controlling major power.


quote:

From the RAW
9. Declaring war
In this step, your major powers can declare war on major powers from the other side or on unaligned minor countries. There are restrictions on some major powers declaring war (see 9.2 China, 13.3 9.5 US entry, 9.5 Neutrality Pacts, and 19.6 Soviet border rectification).

Interacting with countries you are not at war with
If youíre not at war with a particular major power or minor country, your interaction with it is limited.

You canít attack its units (exception: see 9.9 Multiple States of War).

You canít bomb factories or resources it controls.

You canít enter a hex controlled by:
A neutral minor country;
A neutral major power on your side; or
A major power or minor country youíre not yet at war with on the other side.



quote:

From the RAW
11.11.4 Neutral major powers
You can only move a land unit of a neutral major power into:
A hex it controls; or
A hex controlled by one of its aligned minor countries; or
A hex in a minor country it is at war with.

The only exception is the US (see 13.3.2 US entry options, entry options 7 Occupy Greenland & Iceland & 44 US occupies Northern Ireland).

11.11.5 Active major powers
You can move a land unit controlled by an active major power into any hex controlled by:
That major power and its aligned minors; or
Another active major power on the same side (or its controlled Minor countries); or
A major power or minor country it is at war with.

There are some exceptions:
Units canít enter the home country of a non co-operating major power on the same side unless they satisfy the foreign troop commitment rules (see 18.2 Not co-operating); and
Minor country units canít enter a hex controlled by another minor country aligned with their side unless they satisfy the foreign troop commitment rules.

Units cannot enter a country controlled by another power on their side without permission of the owner.



quote:

From the RAW
13.7.5 Liberation
Conquered minor countries, major powers and Commonwealth home countries (and France after a Vichy government is installed) may not be conquered. Instead, the major power controlling its capital can liberate it during the peace step if that major power is from the other side to the major power that conquered it. You canít be liberated in the same turn you were conquered (only possible in Italyís case).

You can choose not to liberate a country that could be liberated. If you do that, the country suffers the effects of partisans as if it were marked in red on the Partisan table, until it is liberated (see 13.1 Partisans Option 46). When France is liberated, Free France ceases to exist and all Free French units, and Territories become French. France is controlled by the liberating major power and is at war with all countries Free France was at war with. The France entry on the partisan table reverts to France (from occupied France).

When China is liberated, the liberator may choose to revert each Chinese hex to the Communist or the Nationalist Chinese (some to one and some to the other).



quote:

From the RAW
18. Co-operation
Units must be able to co-operate to do certain things together. These rules will tell you who can co-operate, what they canít do together even though they can co-operate, and what they canít do together if they donít co-operate.

18.1 Who can co-operate
1. Units from the same major power co-operate with each other (even if they are from different countries - e.g. Australian and Indian units).
2. Units from the same minor country co-operate with each other.
3. Units from a minor country co-operate with units from its controlling major power or minor country.
4. Units from a major power donít co-operate with units from a minor country aligned with another major power.
5. Units from one minor country donít co-operate with units from another minor country, even if both are aligned with the same major power.
6. US and Commonwealth units co-operate provided neither is neutral.
7. Commonwealth and Free French units co-operate.
8. US and (non-Vichy) French units co-operate once the USA is at war with Germany and Italy.
9. German and Italian units co-operate if neither is neutral.
10. Vichy French units do not co-operate with any major power.
11. Units controlled by a neutral major power donít co-operate with units from, or controlled by, another major power.[
12. Units from a liberated major power co-operate with units from the major power that liberated it.
13. Chinese nationalist and communist units donít co-operate.
14. Partisans co-operate with units from their own country only. Chinese partisans only co-operate with Chinese communist units.
No other units co-operate. As an exception to the above, units of a liberated major power never co-operate with units of a major power that refused to return territory on liberation (see 13.7.5). AfA options 10: The Italian AOI territorial can co-operate with all other Italian territorials (see 22.4.5).

18.2 Not co-operating
Units that donít co-operate cannot:
1. Stack in the same hex, at any time that stacking limits apply; or
2. Transport each otherís units; or
3. Draw supply from a source controlled by the other; or
4. Reorganize each other; or
5. Be committed to any combat or mission that the other unit is, or will be, involved in this step. This doesnít apply to naval air or naval air interception missions.

Foreign troop commitments
A major power or minor country unit that ends any step in the home country of a friendly major power it doesnít co-operate with is destroyed unless:
It started the step there; or
It started the step elsewhere and the unit satisfies the foreign troop commitment limit.

A minor country unit that ends any step in the home country of an aligned minor country on the same side is destroyed unless:
It started the step there; or
It started the step elsewhere and the unit satisfies the foreign troop commitment limit.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

No. USA can liberate Venezuela after it goes to war with Japan because the hexes are then transferred to US control.



This scenario is unusual.
A) The USA is a neutral major power.
B) France is an active major power at war with Japan.
C) The Netherlands is a minor power (aligned with France).
D) Japan has conquered Venezuela.
E) Japan DoW's Columbia a minor power (that becomes aligned with the USA).
F) The USSR an active major power DoW's Japan
G) Finland is a minor power (aligned with The USSR).

Columbia can send 1 (one) unit outside its borders into Venezuela.

If Columbia can take Venezuela the USA (Columbia's controlling major power) can choose to liberate Venezuela or not (see the RAW for Liberation Effects).

Liberated minor countries are aligned, and may co-operate, with the liberating major power.

In this case the USA is the controlling major power even though Columbia (a minor power aligned with the USA) liberated Venezuela. And the USA is still a neutral major power.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

8) Netherland or French units cannot enter Columbian controlled hexes in Venezuela (still because USA is not active); however they can recapture Japanese controlled hexes there without requiring any approval.
9) Netherland or French units can draw supply through Columbian controlled hexes in Venezuela as in (3). This does not require approval (because the hexes are not controlled by a major power 2.4.2 bullet 2).


True. But once US is at war with Japan permission will be needed.


France, the Netherlands, the USSR, and Finland must:
Receive permission and meet the restrictions of "Foreign troop commitments" since the USA is a neutral major power (see 18.1 Who can co-operate ~ #11).
2.5 Control ~ Note
11.11.5 Active major powers ~ There are some exceptions: .
18.1 Who can co-operate ~ #11


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

10) Now Russia declares war to Japan (but not Germany); Finland is aligned with Russia; Russia and Finland can send troops to Columbia or Venezuela provided the USA accepts, but only to recapture Japanese controlled hexes or enter French recaptured hexes; the latter doesn't require French approval.

Yes, US approval is enough to enter including the French controlled hexes


The USSR and Finland must receive permission and meet the restrictions of "Foreign troop commitments" since the USA is a neutral major power.
See:
2.5 Control ~ Note
11.11.5 Active major powers ~ There are some exceptions: .
18.1 Who can co-operate ~ #11



_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to yvesp)
Post #: 20
RE: Supply & Control clarification - 10/14/2012 1:54:21 PM   
yvesp


Posts: 1859
Joined: 9/12/2008
Status: offline
quote:

If Columbia can take Venezuela the USA (Columbia's controlling major power) can choose to liberate Venezuela or not (see the RAW for Liberation Effects).


I would have thought so.
However,

quote:

Instead, the major power controlling its
capital can liberate it during the peace step if that major power is
from the other side to the major power that conquered it.


And in that case, the capital is controlled by Columbi, a Minor country.
Hence, it precludes liberation. I believe this part of the rule requires
clarification when the country that controls the capital is a minor.

Thanks!
Yves

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 21
RE: Supply & Control clarification - 10/14/2012 4:06:43 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1684
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:

Original: yvesp
Instead, the major power controlling its capital can liberate it during the peace step if that major power is from the other side to the major power that conquered it.

And in that case, the capital is controlled by Columbia, a Minor country. Hence, it precludes liberation. I believe this part of the rule requires clarification when the country that controls the capital is a minor.



quote:

From the RAW
2.5 Control

Changing control
Control of a hex changes when:
An enemy land unit (except for 13.1 Partisans Option 46, and supply units ~ see 22.4.10 Supply units (MiF option 6)) enters it (the major power entering with the most factors if more than one); or
An island, territory, minor country or major power is conquered (see 13.7.1 Conquest); or
France is declared Vichy (see 17. Vichy France); or
It is a communist Chinese-controlled city entered by a nationalist Chinese land unit or vice versa; or during the liberation step you return control to the original owner (see 13.7.5 reversion).


Note that even though major powers may control minor countries (see 9.8 Aligning minors & 13.7.1 Conquest), it is the minors themselves that control hexes in that minor.

However, hexes taken from an enemy major power (or its controlled minors) are controlled by the major power taking them regardless of whether those hexes are taken by units of the major power or its controlled minors, unless the major powers are not at war with each other (in which case the hexes are controlled by the minor country taking them).

If a minor country controls enemy major power (or its controlled minors) hexes and the minorís controlling major power comes to war with that major power, then those hexes immediately become controlled by the minorís controlling major power.




quote:

From the RAW
13.7.1 Conquest
You can only conquer a home country or territory if you are at war with the major power or minor country that controls it. All conquest in a turn occurs simultaneously.
Minor countries never conquer anything. The home country or territory is instead conquered by the minorís controlling major power (unless it is not at war, see 2.5 Control). You cannot conquer a conquered minor country or territory. You may only liberate or revert it (see 13.7.5 Liberation).

13.7.5 Liberation
Conquered minor countries, major powers, and Commonwealth home countries (and France after a Vichy government is installed) may not be conquered. Instead, the major power controlling its capital can liberate it during the peace step if that major power is from the other side to the major power that conquered it. You canít be liberated in the same turn you were conquered (only possible in Italyís case).

You can choose not to liberate a country that could be liberated. If you do that, the country suffers the effects of partisans as if it were marked in red on the Partisan table, until it is liberated (see 13.1 Partisans Option 46). When France is liberated, Free France ceases to exist and all Free French units, and Territories become French. France is controlled by the liberating major power and is at war with all countries Free France was at war with. The France entry on the partisan table reverts to France (from occupied France).

When China is liberated, the liberator may choose to revert each Chinese hex to the Communist or the Nationalist Chinese (some to one and some to the other).

Liberation effects
Return half of the liberated countryís units not currently in the game (by type, rounding fractions up) to its force pools (except Franceís if Vichy was installed). Liberated minorsí units join the force pools of their liberating major power.

A liberated major power or minor country gets back control of all hexes it controlled at the start of the 1939 campaign game that are now controlled by the liberating major power. Other major powers on its side can give back such territory that they control.

If you liberate the original home country of a conquered major power or minor country, it again becomes the home country for its units, replacing any alternative home country.

A liberated major power can co-operate (see 18 Co-operation) with any major power that returns all eligible territory to it. If they could return territory but donít, they can never co-operate with the liberated major power.

For the remainder of the game, the liberating major power controls the liberated major power for all purposes.

Liberated minor countries are aligned, and may co-operate, with the liberating major power.

Reversion
You can return a hex or minor country you control to the major power that controlled it in 1939 during any liberation step. You may revert Chinese hexes to either the Communists or Nationalists. You can also return control of a minor country hex to that minor country. You can only return hexes or minor countries to a major power or minor country that is on your side and is not currently completely conquered.



Reversion, Liberation, or not Liberation
No major power controlled Venezuela in 1939 so it cannot be reverted.
The minor power Columbia controls Venezuela so it cannot be liberated.

So the choice has to be not Liberation

The peaceful people of Venezuela suffer under the heavy hand of Columbia until the USA goes to war.

I like it




_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to yvesp)
Post #: 22
RE: Supply & Control clarification - 10/14/2012 5:39:26 PM   
yvesp


Posts: 1859
Joined: 9/12/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

The peaceful people of Venezuela suffer under the heavy hand of Columbia until the USA goes to war.


Woo.
I found something ; Venezuela would have been aligned to the USA in the intial declaration of war by Japan. How would that interfer with the rules and the consequences I noted ? I still believe the conclusions would stay valid.

USA going to war with Germany would not reverse the Venezuelian hexes to US control.
Even in the case of war with Japan, I believe that the rule
If a minor country controls enemy major power (or its controlled minors) hexes and the minorís controlling major power comes to war with that major power, then those hexes immediately become controlled by the minorís controlling major power. doesn't fire because said hexes don't qualify.

And the conclusion that Caracas cannot be a secondary source to the USA stays valid in my opinion.

Yves

< Message edited by yvesp -- 10/14/2012 5:47:45 PM >

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 23
RE: Supply & Control clarification - 10/14/2012 7:49:04 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 19325
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: yvesp

quote:

If Columbia can take Venezuela the USA (Columbia's controlling major power) can choose to liberate Venezuela or not (see the RAW for Liberation Effects).


I would have thought so.
However,

quote:

Instead, the major power controlling its
capital can liberate it during the peace step if that major power is
from the other side to the major power that conquered it.


And in that case, the capital is controlled by Columbi, a Minor country.
Hence, it precludes liberation. I believe this part of the rule requires
clarification when the country that controls the capital is a minor.

Thanks!
Yves

Minor countries can not conquer other countries. Therefore the capital of a conquered country is always controlled by a major power.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to yvesp)
Post #: 24
RE: Supply & Control clarification - 10/14/2012 9:17:36 PM   
yvesp


Posts: 1859
Joined: 9/12/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Minor countries can not conquer other countries. Therefore the capital of a conquered country is always controlled by a major power.


Good to know.
That eliminates an illogical situation.

Yves

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 25
RE: Supply & Control clarification - 10/14/2012 9:23:11 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1684
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:

Original: yvesp
Woo.
I found something; Venezuela would have been aligned to the USA in the initial declaration of war by Japan. How would that interfere with the rules and the consequences I noted? I still believe the conclusions would stay valid.

USA going to war with Germany would not reverse the Venezuelan hexes to US control.

Even in the case of war with Japan, I believe that the rule

If a minor country controls enemy major power (or its controlled minors) hexes and the minorís controlling major power comes to war with that major power, then those hexes immediately become controlled by the minorís controlling major power. doesn't fire because said hexes don't qualify.

And the conclusion that Caracas cannot be a secondary source to the USA stays valid in my opinion.

Yves


quote:

From the RAW
2.4.2 Tracing supply
A secondary supply source for a unit is:
An HQ the unit co-operates with (see 18.1); or
The capital city of a minor country controlled by the unitís major power; or
The capital city of a major power, or a minor country, conquered by the unitís major power, or by a major power the unit co-operates with.


The USA cannot enter Japanese controlled hexes in Venezuela.

The USA can have peacekeepers follow the Columbians (who would change the control of the hexes to USA).

When the USA becomes an Active major power then it can liberate Venezuela during the End of Turn Stage ~ Peace Step.

When liberated Venezuela becomes aligned and may co-operate with the USA.
When liberated Caracas, Venezuela can be a secondary source to the USA.

Because:
It's not a HQ unit.
The capital city Venezuela is not controlled by the unitís major power.
The capital city of a Venezuela is not conquered by a major power.


quote:

Original: Steve
Minor countries cannot conquer other countries. Therefore the capital of a conquered country is always controlled by a major power.


quote:

From the RAW
Minor countries never conquer anything. The home country or territory is instead conquered by the minorís controlling major power (unless it is not at war, see 2.5 control)."



Basically this only means that a Neutral major power cannot choose to liberate or revert a minor power. It has to choose "Not Liberate" until the Neutral major power becomes an Active major power. Until liberated Caracas, Venezuela cannot be a secondary source to the USA.

After the Neutral major power becomes a Active major power it can choose revert, liberate, or not liberate a minor power during the End of Turn Stage ~ Peace Step.




< Message edited by Extraneous -- 10/16/2012 1:17:26 PM >


_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to yvesp)
Post #: 26
RE: Supply & Control clarification - 10/16/2012 2:11:32 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1684
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
The USA is a Neutral major power.
France and its minor powers are at war with Japan.
The USSR and its minor powers are at war with Japan.
Columbia is a minor power (aligned with the USA) at war with Japan.
Venezuela is a conquered minor power (and was aligned with the USA before conquest by Japan) (See map).
Venezuela cannot be reverted.
An Active major power can choose to liberate Venezuela or not during the End of Turn Stage ~ Peace Step (Venezuela canít be liberated in the same turn it was conquered).

13.3.3 US ENTRY ACTIONS
28. USSR declares war on Japan (Ja) -17. Remove 1 USA entry action chit from the Japanese pool and 70% chance to remove another.


Columbia conquers Venezuela
Caracas, Venezuela cannot be a secondary supply source to the USA.
USA units cannot enter Japanese controlled hexes.
USA units can enter French or USSR controlled hexes with permission.
Venezuela is subject to Partisans (option 46) who would be placed by Japan.
Venezuela can only be liberated once the USA has become an Active major power.

Since this is a liberation not an incomplete conquest or complete conquest.
Venezuelan hexes would remain controlled by whoever controlled the hexes (Japan, France, the USSR, or the USA).
Venezuelan resources would be available to whoever controlled the hexes.
France, USSR, and Columbia can continue to take hexes from the Japanese.


France (and/or their minors) or the USSR (and/or their minors) conquers Venezuela
Since both France and the USSR are Active major powers at war with Japan they are handled normally (Active major power vs. Active major power in a conquered minor power).

Liberation
Venezuela would become aligned with the Active major power that liberated it.
All Venezuelan hexes would change to the Active major power that liberated it.
Caracas, Venezuela would become a secondary supply source to that Active major power.
All Venezuelan resources would become available to that Active major power.




_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 27
RE: Supply & Control clarification - 10/17/2012 6:20:59 PM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 1851
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: online
so can't find the detail buried in this thread about how MWiF resolves USA being an in-active Major Power that is required to align a minor? or paper WiF for that matter, had never thought about it.



I like the possible situation though. In the fall of 1940 I think Japan could get a +3.7 with 3 units (12+ takes the hex) vs a clear Colombian invasion hex, or a +5 but only with the 2-4 Marine division by itself (13, 16, or 18+ takes it). Assuming there is a clear hex on the Gulf of Panama to invade on the new map. (So I am kinda intrigued to see the NW coast of South America now). High risk, some reward perhaps. Limited overseas supply would make the port hexes, if any, on the Pacific side of Columbia very important. OR, you could seize some French bases first and improve things.....but US entry would be cruising along pretty fast if you DOW France. Fast enough for Japan to walk though all that jungle to Venezuela? Or for that matter, to land a surviving invasion unit without having it disorganized (Flying-boat perhaps) to march on Bogota before the Colombian MIL appears. ? It would all depend on the new map I think but perhaps be fun to try some time.

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 28
RE: Supply & Control clarification - 10/17/2012 6:30:04 PM   
Orm


Posts: 6976
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
Here is a picture of Central America.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"It would seem that you have no useful skill or talent whatsoever," he said.
"Have you thought of going into teaching?"

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 29
RE: Supply & Control clarification - 10/17/2012 6:33:01 PM   
Orm


Posts: 6976
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
And NW of South America.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"It would seem that you have no useful skill or talent whatsoever," he said.
"Have you thought of going into teaching?"

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 30
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