Looking at DCCB

[76mm]

I've resisted picking this one up so far, but the reviews and comments seem really good, so am still thinking about it. I have a couple of kind of random questions:

1) Scale: The website and manual don't seem to indicate the scale. I've picked up that turns are two days, and most of the counters are regiments--is that right? What is the hex scale? What are the smallest units represented by counters--are there separate pioneer or assualt gun companies, etc.?

2) Cards: I'm always a bit leery of games featuring cards, I think they're kinda gamey. Do they work well in this game?

3) Scenario Editor: It looks like there's a scenario editor, is it OK? Is it possible to create new maps?

4) Campaigns: It looks like its possible but difficult to create your own campaigns? Can we sort of do this by editing save-game files, either in the scenario editor or via text files, etc.?

5) vs WitE? Other than it's smaller size, why do people like this game better than WitE?

Thanks.

[Redmarkus5]

1) I believe the hexes are 10k. The 2 day turns give the game really good flow as the attacker can often only make it half way around a pocket, while the defend can only withdraw halfway out of it. Roads, rail and bridges are of supreme importance - cut the rail link or hold the bridge hex and you can change the course of the battle.

2) I too hate cards, but in this game they are terrific. Don't think 'cards', think strategic and logistical decisions that you wished you could have made in other games of this nature.

3) New maps and more can be made (and have been) but the Script editor is a tougher proposition - extremely powerful and flexible but I couldn't get my head round it. A good modder will be able to create any campaign on any front in any era.

4) The Case Blue 'scenario' is a campaign - 170 odd turns with an array of strategic choices to be made, all seasons and an advance from Kharkov to Baku to either conduct or counter, followed by the riposte. You can also create linked campaigns of smaller scenarios with forces that carry over.

5) vs. WitE I would say that the main features I like are the AI, which doesn't resort to spamming carpets of empty Brigades, withdraws from pockets and maintains a decent front line, objective hexes that make sense (cities are important, for example), a better flow with the 2 day turns and and an overall more polished feel.. Certainly, there has not been the same hue and cry regarding bugs and patches and the game is very stable. Also, the developer is active in the forum and you can discuss anything with him. He's very open to ideas for improvements.

I know what you like from the WitE arena and I am positive you'll really enjoy this title.

[76mm]

Thanks for the response.

Aaargh, I was hoping you'd say at least something bad about it...I would dive in on this one in a heartbeat, but I've just picked up Alea Jacta Est and was looking forward to some Roman fun. I guess I'll have to get this one though.

Are the scripts for the AI, or for new card actions, or what?

[RCHarmon]

76mm,

I am a bit surprised that you haven't jumped in yet.

About cards, I think like you do and thought that they would be a bit cheesy, but that is not the case at all. They just represent a level of communicating that takes place during a campaign.

This game is a good game that reflects eastern front fighting. From the first turn of case blue the Soviets have some good units. The whole southern front is weak and a mess as it historically was, but the Soviet player gets the 5th Tank Army which is a army the German player must watch out for because it can do a lot of damage. The 5th tank army and a few other units gives the Soviet player some options in counter attacking. As the campaign goes on the Soviet side gets to go on the offensive.

I haven't played the game a lot, but I happy that if I do find something I want to tweak I can with the editor. I haven't had any time to look at the editor, but it has been described as good and powerful.

As compared to WITE. Well, I maybe should not go there as I very much dislike WITE. There is no WITE silliness in DCCB. C&C is better, the two day turn period is much better than WITE's unbelievable week turn. Etc.

I know Flavious hasn't endorsed this game. That is too bad as a lot of players listen to him. They will be missing out.

[Bonners]

I'd agree to an extent with the comments about the AI, certainly when on a defensive posture. I do think it struggles with offence though. I think the cards are excellent, although it should be noted that you cant now keep saving up card points at HQs as the latest beta patch has set a limit of 20 points which has come through feedback to the developer on this forum.

I also dont think there is a set offensive pattern for the game yet, a skilful Soviet player can totally scupper Case Blue when playing against a slightly inept German player.

[Redmarkus5]

My only negative would be that the Soviet's might be a bit over powered but that's a scenario issue and not an engine issue.

You'll remember how loudly I complained about WitE in these forums. You haven't heard a negative word out of me here...

[76mm]

I've been lurking on this forum for a while, haven't seen many negative comments (other than the invincible HQ units in Kerch). I'll probably buy it this weekend...

[LiquidSky]

The card system is very good at portraying the level of planning and organization that the higher commands are doing. Given enough time, a General (and his staff) would plan the movements out of their subunits...this is represented by the general spending 'command points' on a plan of action. The plan of action is a card. The cards are not 'random', but are the fixed abilities of each general. Some generals will get more powerful, unique cards.

For example Timoshenko, Manstien, and Raus get a card called Gamble. It can greatly increase attack capability of every unit under a Corp commanded by an army with this general. More general cards are Attack, Defend, Entrench, Speed....that every corp commander gets. Every Army commander gets Personnel which increases a Corp commanders XP.

Better commanders get more command points per turn. Manstien gets the most at 4 per turn. A few get 3...most get 1 for the Russians, and the germans seem to get mostly 2.

Because the cards are not random, but are purchased with these points, they are another layer of decision that affects the battle.

FOR example, I like to use Attack on a division to increase its ability to take an objective. I win easily, but the russians counter attack and kick me out. I probably could have won without the use of the Attack card, and would have been better served to play Defend after taking the hex. Or I could have played Speed after taking the hex to get enough AP's to launch another attack..or to exploit a hex further....or play Entrench to dig in...

DId I mention you can only play one card per commander, per turn? (and not at all if you transfer a unit to that commander?)

You can actually play without ever using the cards....and you can play a long time before noticing a commander with a cool card. (Last night, my opponent discovered L'vov, who has the card Exercise..which increases a divisions experience through training...we are on turn umm..25ish..he could have made a tank corp into a guards tank corp, if he was training it from the beginning of the game)

But the people who play with the cards will be able to perform feats of 'magic' like crossing a defended river, or entrenching quickly...or moving quickly...

[wallas]

mm exercise this guy is getting attached to Stavka direct and will personally train certain units. I am kicking myself for not noticing this ability earlier. I lost a month of doing this lol

[Flaviusx]

Wasn't aware that my endorsement was necessary, but as a matter of fact I think this is a very solid game. I don't compare it to WitE because I think it's doing something very different than WitE in terms of scope and subject matter. It's really apples and oranges.

[parusski]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Wasn't aware that my endorsement was necessary, but as a matter of fact I think this is a very solid game. I don't compare it to WitE because I think it's doing something very different than WitE in terms of scope and subject matter. It's really apples and oranges.

Your endorsement does matter.

[Flaviusx]

Ok. It's fun! [:)] Play it and enjoy it. Just do so on its own terms. It's a grand tactical/operational game of a single campaign covering a portion of the eastern front during 42-3, with smaller scenarios included. No economics. The leadership card system is inspired and a lot more subtle than it first appears.

WitE is an operational/strategic game covering the whole of the war in the east, so it set at a different scale, and must necessarily take into account production and the like. Its abstractions are different ones than DCCB.

Neither game is perfect, they both have their oddities, both are well supported by their devs and improving over time. I think you can play both and enjoy both, but they are doing different things and will appeal to people in different ways. You do a disservice to both games if you try to compare them to each other.

[parusski]

And that is why everyone wanted to hear from you: Very well put, thanks.

[76mm]

OK, picked this up and installed this weekend, I'll probably be looking for a game in a month or so once I've figure things out.

[Keunert]

i expected to see a good part of the active WitE crowd coming over here while they wait for the new title. somehow this did not happen. this surprised me as there aren't that many boardgame like quality titles available. any idea why this did not happen?

[76mm]

I don't really have any idea about why other WitE players have not been coming over, but I'll tell you why I held off for so long:
a) I didn't care much for the Advanced Tactics games, and the dev is the same;
b) IIRC, Matrix brought out another Stalingrad game (Unity of Command), shortly before this one, and that one sounded too beer and pretzels for me (no stacking, etc.);
c) hearing about the cards in this one didn't boost my confidence that I would like it, bearing in mind (a) & (b);
d) I've recently bought several games that I haven't really had time to play, and still have one on-going game in WitE; just not enough time!

That said, the reviews and comments on this game have been quite good, and I won't start any more WitE games, so I thought I would finally check it out.

[Redmarkus5]

Great to have you here!

This is definitely not AT, which I also played for a short time. I hope you enjoy the game.

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: Keunert

i expected to see a good part of the active WitE crowd coming over here while they wait for the new title. somehow this did not happen. this surprised me as there aren't that many boardgame like quality titles available. any idea why this did not happen?

For the reasons I've already stated.

If you want to do the whole war at the strategic level, this title, for all its virtues, doesn't cover that. Even if down the line subsequent releases cover other years and campaigns in the east, it still won't be doing what WitE does.

It scratches a whole different itch than WitE. The game is very good, but it just cannot be straight up compared to WitE.

[Keunert]

FlaviusX i understand that but WitE is out for like two years? i thought that a lot of players would be attracted to the new offer. i thought DC's level of complexity and theme should be interesting to a lot of WitE players as well.
Unity of Command or Commander Europe at War, Panzer Corps those are games for a different crowd, but this one should appeal to the grogs too?

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
If you want to do the whole war at the strategic level, this title, for all its virtues, doesn't cover that. Even if down the line subsequent releases cover other years and campaigns in the east, it still won't be doing what WitE does.

It scratches a whole different itch than WitE. The game is very good, but it just cannot be straight up compared to WitE.

Well, I think there are many players, or at least one--me!--that are mainly interested in the Eastern front. I am willing to buy any good game (and unfortunately many bad ones) with an Eastern Front topic. While I drew the line at Unity of Command and Panzer Corps, I did buy Conflict of Heroes and actually played it a couple of times...

On the other hand, I have absolutely no interest in most other theaters and therefore don't intend to buy WitW, regardless of how many improvements it has over WitE.

If I'd thought about it more I'd have probably bought this one sooner, but I've been disracted with lots of other stuff, including other games.