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11th Army?

 
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11th Army? - 10/10/2012 12:17:05 PM   
Iñaki Harrizabalagatar


Posts: 693
Joined: 12/11/2001
Status: offline 		Question, when the germans take Sevastopol is the 11th army automathically withdrawn from the game?
Post #: 1
RE: 11th Army? - 10/10/2012 12:33:42 PM   
Bonners


Posts: 463
Joined: 8/24/2012
From: Stockport, UK
Status: offline 		No it stays, artillery and all.

(in reply to Iñaki Harrizabalagatar)
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RE: 11th Army? - 10/10/2012 2:36:46 PM   
Iñaki Harrizabalagatar


Posts: 693
Joined: 12/11/2001
Status: offline 		At no cost? that seems very unhistorical...

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RE: 11th Army? - 10/10/2012 3:18:07 PM   
rominet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iñaki Harrizabalagatar

At no cost? that seems very unhistorical...


I agree, they should be a big card to pay to be able to keep 11th army after Sebastopol capture.

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RE: 11th Army? - 10/10/2012 5:07:49 PM   
Repsol

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rominet
I agree, they should be a big card to pay to be able to keep 11th army after Sebastopol capture.



That was my initial thought also...but is is really an option NOT to use the 11th army ?
I'm a beginner with this game (having played the short scenarios and are currently playing CASE BLUE FULL (normal AI, very slow turnspeed) for the first time...It's going fairly well with the exception of Sevastopol that took to long to capture (not using my bombers in a good way i guess)...It took until july 16 before the city was captured...

Not being able to transfer units from the 11th army up north to the Rostov area until mid july has left my line very thin at that part of the front...I have transfered 2 german rear area infantry divitions, an entire italian corps and 3 romanian infantry divitions (reinforcements) to the Rostov area to help hold the line against the russian attacks both in the Kamensk area and attacks against my line running from west of Schachty to Taganrog...My lines seems to be holding for now but the enemy is massing very large forces in this area...I have diverted the XIV-panzercorps (1st panzer army) from its push towards Millerowo and ordered it to cross the Donetz from the north (east of Voroshigrad) and head south east to help out in the Kamensk area. I think this will be enough to be able to hold my lines but pushing forward WITHOUT the 11TH army seems almost impossible.

Maybe its just me...but it seems more or less impossible to reach the objectives of the campaign without the 11th army...If its not an option to include them or not then i don't think a card is the best way to solve this problem with the 'unhistorical' 11th army...

just my thoughts...

Repsol



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RE: 11th Army? - 10/10/2012 6:11:08 PM   
rominet


Posts: 515
Joined: 10/23/2007
From: Paris
Status: offline 		Yes but don't forgett that IA has bonus against you when you play at normal level.
Against human, combats would be more fair.

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RE: 11th Army? - 10/10/2012 9:19:01 PM   
Repsol

 

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Status: offline 		Thats true...

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RE: 11th Army? - 10/11/2012 8:43:32 AM   
Vic


Posts: 3413
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline 		Also please keep in mind it is an interesting situation to model if you want to keep it "historical". This because taking 11th Army away after accomplishing the conquest of the Crimea is not really an incentive to conquering the Crimea or to keep an eye on losses while doing so. Basically having a "historical" rule might lead to a-historical moves by the player here. I am open for suggestions of course, but just want everybody to know it was a concious decision of mine to leave 11th Army and Manstein in the south.

Best,
Vic


_____________________________

Victor Reijkersz Designs
www.vrdesigns.nl

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RE: 11th Army? - 10/11/2012 9:04:49 AM   
LiquidSky


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Most of the divisions that were in the 11th army, enroute to Leningrad where brought back to this theater anyways. The end result would be the large artillery, and the 22nd airlanding division would be removed. Not 'the whole 11th army'. Manstein himself was kept in theatre as the new Army Group B boss.

Also alot of the times when a unit is withdrawn from a theater, they dont take their heavy equipment with them...instead giving it up as replacements for the guys in theatre.

But it does bring an interesting idea....can you even have withdrawals? I will have to look at the event stuff to see if you can.

< Message edited by LiquidSky -- 10/11/2012 9:06:30 AM >

_____________________________

To the right General Patton, to the left the British Army, to the rear our own artillery, and besides all that its raining. And the only good thing to say about the weather: it keeps our air corps from blowing us all to Hell because its too lousy to fly.

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RE: 11th Army? - 10/11/2012 10:55:41 AM   
Vic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky


Most of the divisions that were in the 11th army, enroute to Leningrad where brought back to this theater anyways. The end result would be the large artillery, and the 22nd airlanding division would be removed. Not 'the whole 11th army'. Manstein himself was kept in theatre as the new Army Group B boss.

Also alot of the times when a unit is withdrawn from a theater, they dont take their heavy equipment with them...instead giving it up as replacements for the guys in theatre.

But it does bring an interesting idea....can you even have withdrawals? I will have to look at the event stuff to see if you can.


The thing is you can handle withdrawls with the current engine, but it would be easy for the player to pre-empt it by disbanding the unit (and getting its forces as replacements for others) before it is redrawn. Or using it recklessly in combat, same thing.

So to do this properly you'll have to write a script that redraws a certain number of troops and/or tanks and that just takes as many units as it takes to furfill this rule.

Other work around could be to have high command request a certain number of divisions to be given up for another theater and the player actually having to use a card to select the unit he wants to give to high command. If the player then did not return enough units before the deadline he could be fired or lose prestige.

best,
Vic


< Message edited by Vic -- 10/11/2012 11:00:39 AM >

_____________________________

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www.vrdesigns.nl

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RE: 11th Army? - 10/11/2012 1:11:58 PM   
James Ward

 

Posts: 990
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From: Baltimore, Maryland, USA
Status: offline 		You could add prestige for giving back the units and remove prestige if you declined to give them back.

I don't know if you can pro-rate it based on the unit strength but that would keep you from disbanding them.

(in reply to Vic)
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RE: 11th Army? - 10/11/2012 5:42:24 PM   
Repsol

 

Posts: 85
Joined: 1/20/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

Also please keep in mind it is an interesting situation to model if you want to keep it "historical". This because taking 11th Army away after accomplishing the conquest of the Crimea is not really an incentive to conquering the Crimea or to keep an eye on losses while doing so. Basically having a "historical" rule might lead to a-historical moves by the player here. I am open for suggestions of course, but just want everybody to know it was a concious decision of mine to leave 11th Army and Manstein in the south.

Best,
Vic



Maybe one way to give the player "an incentive to conquering the Crimea" could be to make Sevastopol and maybe also Kerch HIGH COMMAND ORDERS (the player loosing prestige points if failing to take the objectives at a certan date).
This would limit the players intrest in ignoring Sevastol and transfering the 11th army to other parts of the front (without having to pay any price for keeping it this way)...I doubt the axis minors will be able to take the crimea objectives by them self (atleast without very high casualties).

Once Sevastopol is taken i think an idea something like James Wards suggested might be good...If the player agrees to send the 11th army to Leningrad he will earn some prestige points...Maybe split that up in 2 or 3 options...

- Send 11th army infantry to Leningrad...5 prestigepoints
- Send 11th army artillery to Leningrad 8 prestigepoints
- ..........

To keep the player from recklessly attacking with the units of the 11th army there should be a limit to how low
the integrety level of thoose units can be to be able to gain prestigepoints for sending them back...

This is just a suggestion...The 'unhistorical' 11th army is in no way a gamekiller for me (not even the slightest).
and i very much like the free setup option...to be able to test some different setups (other than historical) will be interesting (not tried it yet though...)

Repsol

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 12
RE: 11th Army? - 10/12/2012 9:14:53 PM   
Iñaki Harrizabalagatar


Posts: 693
Joined: 12/11/2001
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky


Most of the divisions that were in the 11th army, enroute to Leningrad where brought back to this theater anyways. The end result would be the large artillery, and the 22nd airlanding division would be removed. Not 'the whole 11th army'. Manstein himself was kept in theatre as the new Army Group B boss.




That is not correct.
72Inf Division was diverted to Army Group Center to deal with a
local crisis there.
Thus all that ultimately remained of Eleventh Army's original order of battle after the detachment of other units that remained in Crimea were H.Q.s LIIII and XXX Corps, 24, 132 and 170 Infantry Divisions and 28 Light Division, they were sent to Army Group North.
None of the mentioned divisions returned to the Southern section of the Eastern Front.
As for Manstein himself, after the fall of Sevastopol he was on leave in Romania until returning to the Crimea on 12th August. On 27th August Eleventh Army headquarters arrived on the Leningrad front. It was not until 20th November he received orders to assume immediate com mand of the sector on both sides of Stalingrad as the headquarters of a newly created Don Army Group



< Message edited by Iñaki Harrizabalagatar -- 10/12/2012 9:16:14 PM >

(in reply to LiquidSky)
Post #: 13
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