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OT: Who was the Greatest "Early American" Author?

 
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OT: Who was the Greatest "Early American" Au... - 10/9/2012 2:30:43 PM   
Canoerebel


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Your opinions, please. Poe, Hawthorne, Sinclair, Twain, Melville, London, Cooper, Conrad, Thoreau, Stowe, etc?

By early American, I'm arbitrarily suggesting novelists who were at the "peak of their powers" prior to 1910.
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RE: OT: Who was the Greatest "Early American"... - 10/9/2012 2:56:26 PM   
Yaab


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Joseph Conrad as an American?

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RE: OT: Who was the Greatest "Early American"... - 10/9/2012 3:06:32 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Your opinions, please. Poe, Hawthorne, Sinclair, Twain, Melville, London, Cooper, Conrad, Thoreau, Stowe, etc?

By early American, I'm arbitrarily suggesting novelists who were at the "peak of their powers" prior to 1910.


Is Sinclair Upton Sinclair? If so he's 20th C. and not in the same class as the others. Sinclair Lewis would be for sure, but he's 20th as well.

Of the list you name I would say that your timespan is so broad that comparisons are difficult. Of the "early" list I would say Poe without a doubt. He invented whole new genres of fiction in a short, disastrous life and was a fine poet to boot. Of the later group I think Twain for sure. He perfected the American novel and wrote in "Huck Finn" possibly the only one which can give "The Great Gatsby" a run for the title of Greatest American Novel.

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RE: OT: Who was the Greatest "Early American"... - 10/9/2012 3:08:47 PM   
Canoerebel


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I meant Crane, not Conrad.

I'd consider Upton Sinclair early American (IE, not modern), but I guess I have to bump up the date a bit.

As for the Great American Novel, that distinction belongs to To Kill a Mockingbird.

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RE: OT: Who was the Greatest "Early American"... - 10/9/2012 4:24:55 PM   
tocaff


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Sheesh, couldn't you ask an easier question?

I start to think about the stories that they wrote and I realize that I couldn't even begin to give an answer.

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RE: OT: Who was the Greatest "Early American"... - 10/9/2012 4:32:42 PM   
Canoerebel


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Then it's a good question! Fun to mull over. Since I asked the question, I won't give my opinion. I leave that up to the worthy and educated gents (and lady) of the forum.

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RE: OT: Who was the Greatest "Early American"... - 10/9/2012 4:35:58 PM   
jeffk3510


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This should be a good thread. With the wide variety of tastes here, I am curious to see the opinions tossed around.

Upton Sinclair's The Jungle is a must read in my opinion.

Very important piece of work, and very important to America for the record.

< Message edited by jeffk3510 -- 10/9/2012 4:36:49 PM >


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RE: OT: Who was the Greatest "Early American"... - 10/9/2012 4:44:20 PM   
Chickenboy


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Clemens / Twain all the way. So many excellent novels and such a fascinating persona as a figurehead of Americana.

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RE: OT: Who was the Greatest "Early American"... - 10/9/2012 5:01:20 PM   
Canoerebel


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PoultryLad:

Remember League of Extraordinary Gentlemen? Fun movie with a great plot. The "league" of exceptional men (and women) in that movie included Tom Sawyer, Captain Nemo, the Invisible Man, Dorian Gray, Dr. Jekyll, and a few others. So Twain certainly has a "voice" that still resonates in contemporary culture.

One time in college I was sick in bed in my dorm for a day or two. I felt really bad and passed some time reading Huckleberry Finn. At one point, when Jim is dressed up as a witch doctor or something, and the King and the Duke suddenly encounter him when lightning flashes, well...I laughed so hard I had tears in my eyes. Laughter, indeed, is the best medicine.

Twain is a natiional treasure.

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RE: OT: Who was the Greatest "Early American"... - 10/9/2012 6:02:41 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I meant Crane, not Conrad.

I'd consider Upton Sinclair early American (IE, not modern), but I guess I have to bump up the date a bit.

He was big in Teddy R's era, and then into the 20s.

As for the Great American Novel, that distinction belongs to To Kill a Mockingbird.

Well, opinions are going to differ. I think both HF and TGG address sweeping American foundational issues and structural assumptions, while Mockingbird is more micro and intimate. It's also hard to assess given she never wrote another. But it's a great novel, no question.



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RE: OT: Who was the Greatest "Early American"... - 10/9/2012 6:08:44 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

PoultryLad:

Remember League of Extraordinary Gentlemen? Fun movie with a great plot. The "league" of exceptional men (and women) in that movie included Tom Sawyer, Captain Nemo, the Invisible Man, Dorian Gray, Dr. Jekyll, and a few others. So Twain certainly has a "voice" that still resonates in contemporary culture.

One time in college I was sick in bed in my dorm for a day or two. I felt really bad and passed some time reading Huckleberry Finn. At one point, when Jim is dressed up as a witch doctor or something, and the King and the Duke suddenly encounter him when lightning flashes, well...I laughed so hard I had tears in my eyes. Laughter, indeed, is the best medicine.

Twain is a natiional treasure.


You should read "The Fabulous Riverboat" novels by Phillip Jose Farmer. Also called the Riverworld series. Google it if you've never heard of them.

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RE: OT: Who was the Greatest "Early American"... - 10/9/2012 6:45:15 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jeffk3510

This should be a good thread. With the wide variety of tastes here, I am curious to see the opinions tossed around.

Upton Sinclair's The Jungle is a must read in my opinion.

Very important piece of work, and very important to America for the record.


Jeff,

Don't want to negate your thoughts here, but I will say that Sinclair is one that does not belong on this list. The Jungle a novel, not a fact-based piece of literature, was quite inflammatory, offensive, inaccurate and misses the mark. As Sinclair himself states, he "meant to hit the reader in the heart (about working conditions) and hit them in the stomach instead." Teddy Roosevelt wasn't very kind about his opinion either:

“I have an utter contempt for him. He is hysterical, unbalanced, and untruthful. Three-fourths of the things he said were absolute falsehoods. For some of the remainder there was only a basis of truth.” (Source: letter to William Allen White, July 31, 1906, from “The Letters of Theodore Roosevelt,” 8 vols, Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1951-54, vol. 5, p. 340.)

As someone who deals with the food industry and animal agriculture (and the public's perceptions of same), this approach unnecessarily and irretrievably damaged the public's perception of food safety. His yellow journalism may have stimulated sales, but has no place on the 'best of the best' in my opinion.



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RE: OT: Who was the Greatest "Early American"... - 10/9/2012 7:22:14 PM   
US87891

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Your opinions, please. Poe, Hawthorne, Sinclair, Twain, Melville, London, Cooper, Conrad, Thoreau, Stowe, etc?

Oh my God! Are you serious? As JWE would say, woof !!!

They are all so different and they wrote in different time frames where even the language changed. Ok, here's a take, and the whys therefore. But given those, any others are equally valid on their own special merits.

Twain and Cooper for the same and utterly different reasons.

Clemens had a gift of being able to perfectly define a surrounding by context. He would place a protagonist in a position to allow his/her experiences to slowly develop and define the contextual nature of the story. He wasn't great with dialog, but what he had was simple, real, and very informative. His characterizations were by way of parenthetical slough-offs, with his important characterizations happening in the context of the story.

Oh, yeah. Samuel Langhorn Clemens is on the list.

Cooper wrote in another world. His language was different and his societal context was different. His descriptions and characterizations of space were masterful. And he approached characterization by way of diologue. You can only know Uncas by the words Uncas speaks. Hard to read, but the only book I ever got that talks about the great forest and the red races who lived there with anything approaching respect.

Oh, yeah, James Fenimore Cooper is on the list too.

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RE: OT: Who was the Greatest "Early American"... - 10/9/2012 7:51:18 PM   
Canoerebel


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Have you seen what Twain had to say about Cooper? It's hilarious! Try to find Twain's description of Cooper's flaws as a writer. It's a short essay - perhaps 10 pages long.

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RE: OT: Who was the Greatest "Early American"... - 10/9/2012 7:52:35 PM   
Canoerebel


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Fenimore Cooper's Literary Offenses

by Mark Twain

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"The Pathfinder" and "The Deerslayer" stand at the head of Cooper's novels as artistic creations. There are others of his works which contain parts as perfect as are to be found in these, and scenes even more thrilling. Not one can be compared with either of them as a finished whole. The defects in both of these tales are comparatively slight. They were pure works of art.

--Professor Lounsbury
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The five tales reveal an extraordinary fullness of invention. ... One of the very greatest characters in fiction, Natty Bumppo... The craft of the woodsman, the tricks of the trapper, all the delicate art of the forest were familiar to Cooper from his youth up.


--Professor Matthews
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Cooper is the greatest artist in the domain of romantic fiction in America.


--Wilkie Collins


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It seems to me that it was far from right for the Professor of English Literature at Yale, the Professor of English Literature in Columbia, and Wilkie Collins to deliver opinions on Cooper's literature without having read some of it. It would have been much more decorous to keep silent and let persons talk who have read Cooper.

Cooper's art has some defects. In one place in "Deerslayer," and in the restricted space of two-thirds of a page, Cooper has scored 114 offenses against literary art out of a possible 115. It breaks the record.

There are nineteen rules governing literary art in domain of romantic fiction -- some say twenty-two. In "Deerslayer," Cooper violated eighteen of them. These eighteen require:


1. That a tale shall accomplish something and arrive somewhere. But the "Deerslayer" tale accomplishes nothing and arrives in air.
2. They require that the episodes in a tale shall be necessary parts of the tale, and shall help to develop it. But as the "Deerslayer" tale is not a tale, and accomplishes nothing and arrives nowhere, the episodes have no rightful place in the work, since there was nothing for them to develop.

3. They require that the personages in a tale shall be alive, except in the case of corpses, and that always the reader shall be able to tell the corpses from the others. But this detail has often been overlooked in the "Deerslayer" tale.

4. They require that the personages in a tale, both dead and alive, shall exhibit a sufficient excuse for being there. But this detail also has been overlooked in the "Deerslayer" tale.

5. The require that when the personages of a tale deal in conversation, the talk shall sound like human talk, and be talk such as human beings would be likely to talk in the given circumstances, and have a discoverable meaning, also a discoverable purpose, and a show of relevancy, and remain in the neighborhood of the subject at hand, and be interesting to the reader, and help out the tale, and stop when the people cannot think of anything more to say. But this requirement has been ignored from the beginning of the "Deerslayer" tale to the end of it.

6. They require that when the author describes the character of a personage in the tale, the conduct and conversation of that personage shall justify said description. But this law gets little or no attention in the "Deerslayer" tale, as Natty Bumppo's case will amply prove.

7. They require that when a personage talks like an illustrated, gilt-edged, tree-calf, hand-tooled, seven- dollar Friendship's Offering in the beginning of a paragraph, he shall not talk like a negro minstrel in the end of it. But this rule is flung down and danced upon in the "Deerslayer" tale.

8. They require that crass stupidities shall not be played upon the reader as "the craft of the woodsman, the delicate art of the forest," by either the author or the people in the tale. But this rule is persistently violated in the "Deerslayer" tale.

9. They require that the personages of a tale shall confine themselves to possibilities and let miracles alone; or, if they venture a miracle, the author must so plausibly set it forth as to make it look possible and reasonable. But these rules are not respected in the "Deerslayer" tale.

10. They require that the author shall make the reader feel a deep interest in the personages of his tale and in their fate; and that he shall make the reader love the good people in the tale and hate the bad ones. But the reader of the "Deerslayer" tale dislikes the good people in it, is indifferent to the others, and wishes they would all get drowned together.

11. They require that the characters in a tale shall be so clearly defined that the reader can tell beforehand what each will do in a given emergency. But in the "Deerslayer" tale, this rule is vacated.

In addition to these large rules, there are some little ones. These require that the author shall:


12. Say what he is proposing to say, not merely come near it.
13. Use the right word, not its second cousin.

14. Eschew surplusage.

15. Not omit necessary details.

16. Avoid slovenliness of form.

17. Use good grammar.

18. Employ a simple and straightforward style.

Even these seven are coldly and persistently violated in the "Deerslayer" tale.

Cooper's gift in the way of invention was not a rich endowment; but such as it was he liked to work it, he was pleased with the effects, and indeed he did some quite sweet things with it. In his little box of stage-properties he kept six or eight cunning devices, tricks, artifices for his savages and woodsmen to deceive and circumvent each other with, and he was never so happy as when he was working these innocent things and seeing them go. A favorite one was to make a moccasined person tread in the tracks of a moccasined enemy, and thus hide his own trail. Cooper wore out barrels and barrels of moccasins in working that trick. Another stage-property that he pulled out of his box pretty frequently was the broken twig. He prized his broken twig above all the rest of his effects, and worked it the hardest. It is a restful chapter in any book of his when somebody doesn't step on a dry twig and alarm all the reds and whites for two hundred yards around. Every time a Cooper person is in peril, and absolute silence is worth four dollars a minute, he is sure to step on a dry twig. There may be a hundred other handier things to step on, but that wouldn't satisfy Cooper. Cooper requires him to turn out and find a dry twig; and if he can't do it, go and borrow one. In fact, the Leatherstocking Series ought to have been called the Broken Twig Series.

I am sorry that there is not room to put in a few dozen instances of the delicate art of the forest, as practiced by Natty Bumppo and some of the other Cooperian experts. Perhaps we may venture two or three samples. Cooper was a sailor -- a naval officer; yet he gravely tells us how a vessel, driving toward a lee shore in a gale, is steered for a particular spot by her skipper because he knows of an undertow there which will hold her back against the gale and save her. For just pure woodcraft, or sailorcraft, or whatever it is, isn't that neat? For several years, Cooper was daily in the society of artillery, and he ought to have noticed that when a cannon-ball strikes the ground it either buries itself or skips a hundred feet or so; skips again a hundred feet or so -- and so on, till finally it gets tired and rolls. Now in one place he loses some "females" -- as he always calls women -- in the edge of a wood near a plain at night in a fog, on purpose to give Bumppo a chance to show off the delicate art of the forest before the reader. These mislaid people are hunting for a fort. They hear a cannon-blast, and a cannon-ball presently comes rolling into the wood and stops at their feet. To the females this suggests nothing. The case is very different with the admirable Bumppo. I wish I may never know peace again if he doesn't strike out promptly and follow the track of that cannon-ball across the plain in the dense fog and find the fort. Isn't it a daisy? If Cooper had any real knowledge of Nature's ways of doing things, he had a most delicate art in concealing the fact. For instance: one of his acute Indian experts, Chingachgook (pronounced Chicago, I think), has lost the trail of a person he is tracking through the forest. Apparently that trail is hopelessly lost. Neither you nor I could ever have guessed the way to find it. It was very different with Chicago. Chicago was not stumped for long. He turned a running stream out of its course, and there, in the slush in its old bed, were that person's moccasin tracks. The current did not wash them away, as it would have done in all other like cases -- no, even the eternal laws of Nature have to vacate when Cooper wants to put up a delicate job of woodcraft on the reader.

We must be a little wary when Brander Matthews tells us that Cooper's books "reveal an extraordinary fullness of invention." As a rule, I am quite willing to accept Brander Matthews's literary judgments and applaud his lucid and graceful phrasing of them; but that particular statement needs to be taken with a few tons of salt. Bless you heart, Cooper hadn't any more invention than a horse; and don't mean a high-class horse, either; I mean a clothes- horse. It would be very difficult to find a really clever "situation" in Cooper's books, and still more difficult to find one of any kind which has failed to render absurd by his handling of it. Look at the episodes of "the caves"; and at the celebrated scuffle between Maqua and those others on the table-land a few days later; and at Hurry Harry's queer water-transit from the castle to the ark; and at Deerslayer's half-hour with his first corpse; and at the quarrel between Hurry Harry and Deerslayer later; and at -- but choose for yourself; you can't go amiss.

If Cooper had been an observer his inventive faculty would have worked better; not more interestingly, but more rationally, more plausibly. Cooper's proudest creations in the way of "situations" suffer noticeably from the absence of the observer's protecting gift. Cooper's eye was splendidly inaccurate. Cooper seldom saw anything correctly. He saw nearly all things as through a glass eye, darkly. Of course a man who cannot see the commonest little every-day matters accurately is working at a disadvantage when he is constructing a "situation." In the "Deerslayer" tale Cooper has a stream which is fifty feet wide where it flows out of a lake; it presently narrows to twenty as it meanders along for no given reason, and yet when a stream acts like that it ought to be required to explain itself. Fourteen pages later the width of the brook's outlet from the lake has suddenly shrunk thirty feet, and become "the narrowest part of the stream." This shrinkage is not accounted for. The stream has bends in it, a sure indication that it has alluvial banks and cuts them; yet these bends are only thirty and fifty feet long. If Cooper had been a nice and punctilious observer he would have noticed that the bends were often nine hundred feet long than short of it.

Cooper made the exit of that stream fifty feet wide, in the first place, for no particular reason; in the second place, he narrowed it to less than twenty to accommodate some Indians. He bends a "sapling" to form an arch over this narrow passage, and conceals six Indians in its foliage. They are "laying" for a settler's scow or ark which is coming up the stream on its way to the lake; it is being hauled against the stiff current by rope whose stationary end is anchored in the lake; its rate of progress cannot be more than a mile an hour. Cooper describes the ark, but pretty obscurely. In the matter of dimensions "it was little more than a modern canal boat." Let us guess, then, that it was about one hundred and forty feet long. It was of "greater breadth than common." Let us guess then that it was about sixteen feet wide. This leviathan had been prowling down bends which were but a third as long as itself, and scraping between banks where it only had two feet of space to spare on each side. We cannot too much admire this miracle. A low- roofed dwelling occupies "two-thirds of the ark's length" -- a dwelling ninety feet long and sixteen feet wide, let us say -- a kind of vestibule train. The dwelling has two rooms -- each forty- five feet long and sixteen feet wide, let us guess. One of them is the bedroom of the Hutter girls, Judith and Hetty; the other is the parlor in the daytime, at night it is papa's bedchamber. The ark is arriving at the stream's exit now, whose width has been reduced to less than twenty feet to accommodate the Indians -- say to eighteen. There is a foot to spare on each side of the boat. Did the Indians notice that there was going to be a tight squeeze there? Did they notice that they could make money by climbing down out of that arched sapling and just stepping aboard when the ark scraped by? No, other Indians would have noticed these things, but Cooper's Indian's never notice anything. Cooper thinks they are marvelous creatures for noticing, but he was almost always in error about his Indians. There was seldom a sane one among them.

The ark is one hundred and forty-feet long; the dwelling is ninety feet long. The idea of the Indians is to drop softly and secretly from the arched sapling to the dwelling as the ark creeps along under it at the rate of a mile an hour, and butcher the family. It will take the ark a minute and a half to pass under. It will take the ninety-foot dwelling a minute to pass under. Now, then, what did the six Indians do? It would take you thirty years to guess, and even then you would have to give it up, I believe. Therefore, I will tell you what the Indians did. Their chief, a person of quite extraordinary intellect for a Cooper Indian, warily watched the canal-boat as it squeezed along under him and when he had got his calculations fined down to exactly the right shade, as he judge, he let go and dropped. And missed the boat! That is actually what he did. He missed the house, and landed in he stern of the scow. It was not much of a fall, yet it knocked him silly. He lay there unconscious. If the house had been ninety-seven feet long he would have made the trip. The error lay in the construction of the house. Cooper was no architect.

There still remained in the roost five Indians. The boat has passed under and is now out of their reach. Let me explain what the five did -- you would not be able to reason it out for yourself. No. 1 jumped for the boat, but fell in the water astern of it. Then No. 2 jumped for the boat, but fell in the water still further astern of it. Then No. 3 jumped for the boat, and fell a good way astern of it. Then No. 4 jumped for the boat, and fell in the water away astern. Then even No. 5 made a jump for the boat -- for he was Cooper Indian. In that matter of intellect, the difference between a Cooper Indian and the Indian that stands in front of the cigar-shop is not spacious. The scow episode is really a sublime burst of invention; but it does not thrill, because the inaccuracy of details throw a sort of air of fictitiousness and general improbability over it. This comes of Cooper's inadequacy as observer.

The reader will find some examples of Cooper's high talent for inaccurate observation in the account of the shooting-match in "The Pathfinder."


A common wrought nail was driven lightly into the target, its head having been first touched with paint.

The color of the paint is not stated -- an important omission, but Cooper deals freely in important omissions. No, after all, it was not an important omission; for this nail-head is a hundred yards from the marksmen, and could not be seen at that distance, no matter what its color might be. How far can the best eyes see a common housefly? A hundred yards? It is quite impossible. Very well; eyes that cannot see a house-fly that is a hundred yards away cannot see an ordinary nail-head at that distance, for the size of the two objects is the same. It takes a keen eye to see a fly or a nail-head at fifty yards -- one hundred and fifty-feet. Can the reader do it?
The nail was lightly driven, its head painted, and game called. Then the Cooper miracles began. The bullet of the first marksman chipped an edge of the nail-head; the next man's bullet drove the nail a little way into the target -- and removed all the paint. Haven't the miracles gone far enough now? Not to suit Cooper; for the purpose of this whole scheme is to show off his prodigy, Deerslayer-Hawkeye-Long-Rifle-Leatherstocking-Pathfinder-Bumppo before the ladies.


"Be all ready to clench it, boys!" cried out Pathfinder, stepping into his friend's tracks the instant they were vacant. "Never mind a new nail; I can see that, though the paint is gone, and what I can see I can hit at a hundred yards, though it were only a mosquito's eye. Be ready to clench!"
The rifle cracked, the bullet sped its way, and the head of the nail was buried in the wood, covered by the piece of flattened lead.

There, you see, is a man who could hunt flies with a rifle, and command a ducal salary in a Wild West show to-day if we had him back with us.
The recorded feat is certainly surprising just as it stands; but it is not surprising enough for Cooper. Cooper adds a touch. He has made Pathfinder do this miracle with another man's rife; and not only that, but Pathfinder did not have even the advantage of loading it himself. He had everything against him, and yet he made that impossible shot; and not only made it, but did it with absolute confidence, saying, "Be ready to clench." Now a person like that would have undertaken that same feat with a brickbat, and with Cooper to help he would have achieved it, too.

Pathfinder showed off handsomely that day before the ladies. His very first feat a thing which no Wild West show can touch. He was standing with the group of marksmen, observing -- a hundred yards from the target, mind; one Jasper rasper raised his rifle and drove the center of the bull's-eye. Then the Quartermaster fired. The target exhibited no result this time. There was a laugh. "It's a dead miss," said Major Lundie. Pathfinder waited an impressive moment or two; then said, in that calm, indifferent, know-it-all way of his, "No, Major, he has covered Jasper's bullet, as will be seen if any one will take the trouble to examine the target."

Wasn't it remarkable! How could he see that little pellet fly through the air and enter that distant bullet-hole? Yet that is what he did; for nothing is impossible to a Cooper person. Did any of those people have any deep-seated doubts about this thing? No; for that would imply sanity, and these were all Cooper people.


The respect for Pathfinder's skill and for his quickness and accuracy of sight [the italics are mine] was so profound and general, that the instant he made this declaration the spectators began to distrust their own opinions, and a dozen rushed to the target in order to ascertain the fact. There, sure enough, it was found that the Quartermaster's bullet had gone through the hole made by Jasper's, and that, too, so accurately as to require a minute examination to be certain of the circumstance, which, however, was soon clearly established by discovering one bullet over the other in the stump against which the target was placed.

They made a "minute" examination; but never mind, how could they know that there were two bullets in that hole without digging the latest one out? for neither probe nor eyesight could prove the presence of any more than one bullet. Did they dig? No; as we shall see. It is the Pathfinder's turn now; he steps out before the ladies, takes aim, and fires.
But, alas! here is a disappointment; in incredible, an unimaginable disappointment -- for the target's aspect is unchanged; there is nothing there but that same old bullet hole!


�If one dared to hint at such a thing," cried Major Duncan, "I should say that the Pathfinder has also missed the target."

As nobody had missed it yet, the "also" was not necessary; but never mind about that, for the Pathfinder is going to speak.

"No, no, Major," said he, confidently, "that would be a risky declaration. I didn't load the piece, and can't say what was in it; but if it was lead, you will find the bullet driving down those of the Quartermaster and Jasper, else is not my name Pathfinder."
A shout from the target announced the truth of this assertion.

Is the miracle sufficient as it stands? Not for Cooper. The Pathfinder speaks again, as he "now slowly advances toward the stage occupied by the females":

"That's not all, boys, that's not all; if you find the target touched at all, I'll own to a miss. The Quartermaster cut the wood, but you'll find no wood cut by that last messenger."

The miracle is at last complete. He knew -- doubtless saw -- at the distance of a hundred yards -- this his bullet had passed into the hole without fraying the edges. There were now three bullets in that one hole -- three bullets embedded processionally in the body of the stump back of the target. Everybody knew this -- somehow or other -- and yet nobody had dug any of them out to make sure. Cooper is not a close observer, but he is interesting. He is certainly always that, no matter what happens. And he is more interesting when he is not noticing what he is about than when he is. This is a considerable merit.
The conversations in the Cooper books have a curious sound in our modern ears. To believe that such talk really ever came out of people's mouths would be to believe that there was a time when time was of no value to a person who thought he had something to say; when it was the custom to spread a two-minute remark out to ten; when a man's mouth was a rolling-mill, and busied itself all day long in turning four-foot pigs of thought into thirty-foot bars of conversational railroad iron by attenuation; when subjects were seldom faithfully stuck to, but the talk wandered all around and arrived nowhere; when conversations consisted mainly of irrelevancies, with here and there a relevancy, a relevancy with an embarrassed look, as not being able to explain how it got there.

Cooper was certainly not a master in the construction of dialogue. Inaccurate observation defeated him here as it defeated him in so many other enterprises of his life. He even failed to notice that the man who talks corrupt English six days in the week must and will talk it on seventh, and can't help himself. In the "Deerslayer" story, he lets Deerslayer talk the showiest kind of book-talk sometimes, and at other times the basest of base dialects. For instance, when some one asks him if he has a sweetheart, and if so, where she abides, this is his majestic answer:


�She's in the forest -- hanging from the boughs of the trees, in a soft rain -- in the dew on the open grass -- the clouds that float about in the blue heavens -- the birds that sing in the woods -- the sweet springs where I slake my thirst -- and in all the other glorious gifts that come from God's Providence!"

And he preceded that, a little before, with this:

"It consarns me as all things that touches a friend consarns a friend."

And this is another of his remarks:

"If I was Injin born, now, I might tell of this, or carry in the scalp and boast of the expl'ite afore the whole tribe; of if my inimy had only been a bear" -- [and so on]

We cannot imagine such a thing as a veteran Scotch Commander-in- Chief comporting himself like a windy melodramatic actor, but Cooper could. On one occasion, Alice and Cora were being chased by the French through a fog in the neighborhood of their father's fort:

�Point de quartier aux coquins!� cried an eager pursuer, who seemed to direct the operations of the enemy.
"Stand firm and be ready, my gallant 60ths!" suddenly exclaimed a voice above them; "wait to see the enemy, fire low, and sweep the glacis."
"Father! father" exclaimed a piercing cry from out the mist. "It is I! Alice! thy own Elsie! spare, O! save your daughters!"
"Hold!" shouted the former speaker, in the awful tones of parental agony, the sound reaching even to the woods, and rolling back in a solemn echo. "'Tis she! God has restored me my children! Throw open the sally- port; to the field, 60ths, to the field! pull not a trigger, lest ye kill my lambs! Drive off these dogs of France with your steel!"


Cooper's word-sense was singularly dull. When a person has a poor ear for music he will flat and sharp right along without knowing it. He keeps near the tune, but is not the tune. When a person has a poor ear for words, the result is a literary flatting and sharping; you perceive what he is intending to say, but you also perceive that he does not say it. This is Cooper. He was not a word-musician. His ear was satisfied with the approximate words. I will furnish some circumstantial evidence in support of this charge. My instances are gathered from half a dozen pages of the tale called "Deerslayer." He uses "Verbal" for "oral"; "precision" for "facility"; "phenomena" for "marvels"; "necessary" for "predetermined"; "unsophisticated" for "primitive"; "preparation" for "expectancy"; "rebuked" for "subdued"; "dependent on" for "resulting from"; "fact" for "condition"; "fact" for "conjecture"; "precaution" for "caution"; "explain" for "determine"; "mortified" for "disappointed"; "meretricious" for "factitious"; "materially" for "considerably"; "decreasing" for "deepening"; "increasing" for "disappearing"; "embedded" for "inclosed"; "treacherous" for "hostile"; "stood" for "stooped"; "softened" for "replaced"; "rejoined" for "remarked"; "situation" for "condition"; "different" for "differing"; "insensible" for "unsentient"; "brevity" for "celerity"; "distrusted" for "suspicious"; "mental imbecility" for "imbecility"; "eyes" for "sight"; "counteracting" for "opposing"; "funeral obsequies" for "obsequies."
There have been daring people in the world who claimed that Cooper could write English, but they are all dead now -- all dead but Lounsbury. I don't remember that Lounsbury makes the claim in so many words, still he makes it, for he says that "Deerslayer" is a "pure work of art." Pure, in that connection, means faultless -- faultless in all details -- and language is a detail. If Mr. Lounsbury had only compared Cooper's English with the English he writes himself -- but it is plain that he didn't; and so it is likely that he imagines until this day that Cooper's is as clean and compact as his own. Now I feel sure, deep down in my heart, that Cooper wrote about the poorest English that exists in our language, and that the English of "Deerslayer" is the very worst that even Cooper ever wrote.

I may be mistaken, but it does seem to me that "Deerslayer" is not a work of art in any sense; it does seem to me that it is destitute of every detail that goes to the making of a work of art; in truth, it seems to me that "Deerslayer" is just simply a literary delirium tremens.

A work of art? It has no invention; it has no order, system, sequence, or result; it has no lifelikeness, no thrill, no stir, no seeming of reality; its characters are confusedly drawn, and by their acts and words they prove that they are not the sort of people the author claims that they are; its humor is pathetic; its pathos is funny; its conversations are -- oh! indescribable; its love-scenes odious; its English a crime against the language.

Counting these out, what is left is Art. I think we must all admit that.


1895


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Post #: 15
RE: OT: Who was the Greatest "Early American"... - 10/9/2012 8:40:31 PM   
CaptDave

 

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I don't think I've read enough by early American authors to offer an informed opinion. All I can really say is that I've not read any Mark Twain (yet) that I didn't like, and I also like the little bit of Stephen Crane that I've read. Hawthorne is hit-or-miss.

I will give an honorary mention to Eudora Welty, who certainly wasn't an early American writer but did write more in a Twain-era style than modern.

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Post #: 16
RE: OT: Who was the Greatest "Early American"... - 10/9/2012 9:39:06 PM   
Ol_Dog


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I stand with head bowed - awed, amazed and humbled by Mr. Twain's writings.

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RE: OT: Who was the Greatest "Early American"... - 10/9/2012 9:47:04 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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One passage leaped out at me, and probably you too as an attorney, and that is the difference between "verbal" and "oral." A distinction any law professor teaching nuggets contract law is only too happy to point out.

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Post #: 18
RE: OT: Who was the Greatest "Early American"... - 10/9/2012 9:48:09 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Your opinions, please. Poe, Hawthorne, Sinclair, Twain, Melville, London, Cooper, Conrad, Thoreau, Stowe, etc?

By early American, I'm arbitrarily suggesting novelists who were at the "peak of their powers" prior to 1910.


Can your really refer to anything in the late 19th or early 20th century as "early"? By that period we'd been a nation 150 years, and a colonial entity for nearly 200 before that. In fairness can you really call anything after, oh say 1850 early? If accepted, this would significantly limit the pool.

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RE: OT: Who was the Greatest "Early American"... - 10/9/2012 10:14:54 PM   
Canoerebel


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To me, there is a big divide between the writers of the 1930s forward and those before. So I have a pretty loose definition of early American. Starting with the whole "social angst" movement around the time of the Great Depression, things really changed. So when I classify American literature into two groups, I think pre- and post- that era. To me, London and Twain and Crane and Cooper have little in common with Hemmingway, Caldwell, Steinbeck and succeeding generations.

That's a sharp divide. Think of it this way: 1960s television: Hogan's Heroes. 1970s television M*A*S*H. Very different.

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RE: OT: Who was the Greatest "Early American"... - 10/9/2012 10:41:11 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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So there's no social angst associated with "The Scarlet Letter" or "Huck Finn"? I'm confused.

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RE: OT: Who was the Greatest "Early American"... - 10/9/2012 10:48:55 PM   
Canoerebel


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Sure, there's angst in the Scarlett Letter , The Jungle, and the Red Badge of Courage, but dissimilar (to me) from what we began to see in the 1920s and 1930s.

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RE: OT: Who was the Greatest "Early American"... - 10/9/2012 11:06:17 PM   
US87891

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Have you seen what Twain had to say about Cooper? It's hilarious! Try to find Twain's description of Cooper's flaws as a writer. It's a short essay - perhaps 10 pages long.

Sir. You asked a question that I thought I answered as honestly as I could.

If you wish to turn this thread into one of literary criticism, I am loaded, primed and full-cocked. And I am a deadly shot.

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Post #: 23
RE: OT: Who was the Greatest "Early American"... - 10/9/2012 11:18:03 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

To me, there is a big divide between the writers of the 1930s forward and those before. So I have a pretty loose definition of early American. Starting with the whole "social angst" movement around the time of the Great Depression, things really changed. So when I classify American literature into two groups, I think pre- and post- that era. To me, London and Twain and Crane and Cooper have little in common with Hemmingway, Caldwell, Steinbeck and succeeding generations.

That's a sharp divide. Think of it this way: 1960s television: Hogan's Heroes. 1970s television M*A*S*H. Very different.



OK...I see. So we are not to look at this from historical periods, or other traditional divides. No problem. Tell us what you want so we can agree with it.

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Post #: 24
RE: OT: Who was the Greatest "Early American"... - 10/10/2012 1:50:32 AM   
geofflambert


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I haven't read a stitch of Hawthorne, but I here high praise about him. I think The House of Seven Gables should be th first thing you read of his, on the chance you might read nothing else. I have read Moby Dick and consider it the greatest novel ever written in any language. For American novels, Huckleberry Finn rates nothing below but MD. But if we stray a bit from 'novels' and from American ones, The Divine Comedy kicks butt up and down the street, and from the curb to the publick house.

Generally speaking though, aside from the Yanks and the Brits and the French, I think the Russians are second to none, unless it be the Yanks.

So start a film thread. The Japanese will score very highly in that category.

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Post #: 25
RE: OT: Who was the Greatest "Early American"... - 10/10/2012 4:56:28 AM   
mike scholl 1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Clemens / Twain all the way. So many excellent novels and such a fascinating persona as a figurehead of Americana.


Dead On! Sam Clemens by about 6 lengths in that race.

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Post #: 26
RE: OT: Who was the Greatest "Early American"... - 10/10/2012 7:11:46 AM   
JeffK


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I think your list does dis-service to many other American writers, maybe you have popular writers instead of great writers.

Walt Whitman is missing, as is Washington Irving, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Henry Thoreau et al.

From your list, Mark Twain would get my vote because of the breadth of his work, travelleing the world in his time period and providing a view of, to us, a very different world.

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RE: OT: Who was the Greatest "Early American"... - 10/10/2012 10:57:51 AM   
obvert


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Twain is the most diverse and probably the most culturally influential on this list, both in his own time and since. Virtually everyone reads Huck Finn and/or Tom Sawyer, but more importantly they have not stopped being both very relevant and very entertaining.

Your original question is a bit difficult to answer due to semantics. Does 'greatest' mean best? Most popular? Most influential? All of the above? It's like asking what was the greatest fighter the Allies produced during the war. There are a lot of answers for a lot of reasons and uses. You probably meant to make the question open as this would entice the most diverse answers and the most dialogue out of all of us.

One 'greatest' is difficult in any sphere, however. Who was the greatest of the founding fathers? What is the greatest film of the 20th century? Which pin-up girl of the 40s has the best set of pins? To many good options.





< Message edited by obvert -- 10/10/2012 11:02:09 AM >


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Post #: 28
RE: OT: Who was the Greatest "Early American"... - 10/10/2012 12:06:23 PM   
spence

 

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quote:

Clemens / Twain all the way. So many excellent novels and such a fascinating persona as a figurehead of Americana.


+10 or so

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Post #: 29
RE: OT: Who was the Greatest "Early American"... - 10/10/2012 12:29:43 PM   
Canoerebel


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There are a couple of "sour" comments in here, perhaps prompted by things I said, though I didn't intend to provoke anyone to wrath.

This is meant to just be a discussion thread. It's a rather loosely defined question for no particularl reason, so just have fun with it.

In reply to a couple of comments:

1. I mentioned Twain's criticism of Cooper only because I was aware of it, not because I was offering it as some kind of "proof." Twain was funny and his commentary is very entertaining if you have time to read it.

2. I did include Thoreau in my list. But that list wasn't meant to be exclusive or exhaustive. Note the "etc." at the end.

3. I'm not qualified to give an informed decision. I haven't read all the authors or all of their works. So I don't have an ax to grind or an agenda. The question occurred to me yesteday while I was reading some Poe. So I threw it out there.

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