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DABigBabes Scenario 30 vs. Stock Scen.2 - am i missing something?

 
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DABigBabes Scenario 30 vs. Stock Scen.2 - am i missing ... - 10/7/2012 11:34:03 AM   
GreyJoy


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Yesterday NY59giants pointed out something really scary in my AAR....
I'm playing DDB scenario 30, which is presented as and should be a translation of stock scenario 2 but with the dabigbabes modifications ....
He underlined the fact that the overall japanese economy of scenario 30 is far from being the one japan has in scenario 2, having less of everything ( less HI,LI industries, less oil wells, less refineries and so on) .... Moreover Japan starts the war with a couple of millions less of fuel and supply stockpiled....

A part from me being so naif not to have grasped it by myself ( having to wait that, after 8 months of war ) somebody indicated me these problems, there something particular should i worry about for the future of my economy?

I mean, i know refineries don't produce supplies, which is cool.... But i wonder if the extra-tools you have of scenario 2, having basically the economy of a scenario 1, would unbalance the whole economic aspect of the game if you don'tay enough attention to the details....
HI needed for training pilots for example.... We all know in scenario 2 u get more pilots...so more HI needed....but with an economy similar to scenario 1, should i have to worry?

Same goes for supplies... Dan Nichols reminded me that PzB declared that in 1944, despited the victorius position of Japan, he was facing incredible problems with supplies....

Can somebody enlights me a bit? Did somebody test this scenario 30 in 1944? Should i start considering stopping some industries or stop repairing R&D factories?

I' m not looking for a specific advice, i just would like to know what other people think about how to run the economy in this " strange" scenario...


Thanks a lot in advance

Gj
Post #: 1
RE: DABigBabes Scenario 30 vs. Stock Scen.2 - am i miss... - 10/7/2012 12:26:43 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 6973
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: online
A possible fix for those already playing Scenario 30 in DBB, including myself, to this problem is to go into the Editor and add some convoys showing up at Tokyo from mid to late '42 for 'x' number of months dropping off supplies and fuel (exact amounts to be determined). It would be to try to make up for some of the difference from the two scenarios. Is this possible??

_____________________________


(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 2
RE: DABigBabes Scenario 30 vs. Stock Scen.2 - am i miss... - 10/7/2012 12:53:52 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6081
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline
mmm... No Micheal, you misunderstood me (or, probably, i didn't express myself well enough)... i wasn't complaining, nor asking for a tweak...
I think it's a good thing that Japan has problems keeping decent supply levels in the overextended empire. As it was in RL, so it should be in the game, no matter which scenario you play.

My question was just "technical".... i mean: is the lack of these 3000 supplies/Daily (and the lack of oil/res/supplies/HI etc etc stockpiled at the beginning of the game), has been tested? I just wanna know if it's sustainable...nothing else. I don't mind if i need to make some tweaks (shutting down some industries for example) or if it's hard to maintain a decent flow of fuel to the HI and supplies to the front lines... i just wanna understand if, in the long run, these weirdnesses of this scenario are sustainable (cause if PzB had problems with supplies in 1944 with stock scenario 2...i fear that in 1944 my economy is at risk of being bankruptcing (sp??) with scen30...

(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 3
RE: DABigBabes Scenario 30 vs. Stock Scen.2 - am i miss... - 10/7/2012 1:00:10 PM   
Cannonfodder


Posts: 1850
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
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Greyjoy, the only way to determine the amount of deficit you are running is showing us what your economy looks like.

- Are your supply stocks (overal) falling or rising.
- Is your HI stock falling or rising (including pilot training)
- Are your fuel stocks falling or rising?

Then look at your ambitions in R&D and plane manufacturing. Look at your naval and merchant shipyards. What are your priorities..

The economy can always be balanced out. ALWAYS. It just doesn't let you have all the toys you want...

_____________________________


"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor


(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 4
RE: DABigBabes Scenario 30 vs. Stock Scen.2 - am i miss... - 10/7/2012 1:18:48 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6081
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Greyjoy, the only way to determine the amount of deficit you are running is showing us what your economy looks like.

- Are your supply stocks (overal) falling or rising.
- Is your HI stock falling or rising (including pilot training)
- Are your fuel stocks falling or rising?

Then look at your ambitions in R&D and plane manufacturing. Look at your naval and merchant shipyards. What are your priorities..

The economy can always be balanced out. ALWAYS. It just doesn't let you have all the toys you want...



Well, i think QBall won't mind if i put these numbers here (i think the allies don't need to care about what Japan is producing or not...not in 1942 anyway!)...so...

I'm saving 2890 HI/Daily, but i'm doing this producing "only" 400 Merchand Shipyards points and having halted the merchant production (except for TKs, AOs and PBs).
I've been drying the IJN training school, in order to save as much HI as possible.
I've been shutting down all the CVs that arrive in late 1944, along with Musashi BB (i'm actually planning to start them back if i'll ever have enough HI stockpiled).
I've not expanded any HI industry. Just repaired those found damaged at Changsha (58 HI) and at Singa (50HI).
Not repairing any LI industry, not any Res, Oil or Refineries industries conquered damaged.

Despite all these efforts, i have "only" 450k HI points stockpiled by July 1942 (spent a lot in R&D modifications).
The main problem is supply. In the whole Empire i only have 2,5millions of supplies...and they are not growing.
Japan's supply stockpiles remained at 400k and are stable...but i cannot send not more than one 80k supplies monthly to other theatres (Burma, Malaya, SRA or whatever)....

Fuel levels are stable but not growing, but i think fuel isn't a problem in this scenario. You just need to be very carefull in using it.

I repeat: i don't understand the future implication of having the scenario2 toys (above all the number of pilots) with a "scenario1 like" economy...

And the other question is: were these weirdnesses WAD? (meaning having a scenario which is a mix between scenario 1 and 2 ?)

(in reply to Cannonfodder)
Post #: 5
RE: DABigBabes Scenario 30 vs. Stock Scen.2 - am i miss... - 10/7/2012 1:36:36 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 5619
Joined: 6/6/2008
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450K HI stockpile in May 42 is fine, actually quite good.  So, I don't think you have any issues there.

If you are short of supply, there are three culprits:

1. you are adding a lot of replacements to your LCU's.  Replacement eat supply at the load cost of the device being replaced.  IJ starts with a lot of units under their respective TOE.  If you have the replacements turned on, you can eat a lot of supply.

2.  Over zealous factory expansion.  1100 supply for each factory expanded.  Most newbies to IJ expand their a/c factories too much too fast .... think of it this way, 30 a/c factories expanded to size 30 is 990,000 supply chewed up.  If you eand engines factories to match ... double it, so now 2,000,000 supply.  And of course you have 78? starting a/c factory locations.  I've seen some expand all of them ... +4,000,000 supply ...

3.  Finally, and oft-overlooked: COMBAT.  If your game is high tempo with lots of combat your LCU's burn through supply at an incredible rate; 10 - 20 x the resting rate easily.  So if your LCU is normally only eating 5 supply/day, in combat it could be eating up 50 supply/day.  Multiply that by 200 LCU's and ....

As a player, you control all 3, but the last one less so.  If your tempo is high, then you have to curtail your expenditures in the other two.  Ex: If you have +300 LCU's committed to a major land campaign in say China, you may not be able to expand your a/c R&D as quickly as someone who stops at the historical boundaries and begins to consolidate.  IJ economy is in fact quite limited.  Your strategy must be bounded by the economy or you will collapse it and give an easy victory to the allies.

In fact, one of the easiest and most effective stategies any allied player can do to a newbie IJ player is simply keep the operational tempo high in '42.  Most IJ players will implode their economy giving the allies an easy victory in '43 as the IJ has no fuel or supply in '43 to defend with.  They will have some fancy new planes though ...

EDIT
To throw a few more bones out here: Read MikeS AAR's. I think there are 3 of them ...
1. You will see MikeS and I frequently talking about supply floors: we won't let supply drop below a certain level in the HI ... we turn off factory expansions to maintain that level. We will have these in all theatres.

2. You will see that we are also really careful about turning replacements on ... very choosy about which units are receiving and when and why. Most units are not and never do the entire game. BTW, this was historically the fact as well. IJ didn't have the economy to fill out all of their TOE's.

3. Both of us are very careful about offensives. They are very expensive and we choose these carefully, have budgets for them and review those budgets carefully as the offensives unfold. I've stopped offensives many times if they are going too far over budget and goals are not being met. Again, consistent with history. IJ scotched quite a few plans as they could not build up the support for the offensive.

4. We expand factories very slowly and carefully. Ok, Mike does it at a snail's pace ... I'm more like an ant's pace. Still, we are only having a few factories repair in any one day, not 10 let alone 20 or 30 as many players do.

Oh, and this is what we do for Scen 1 & 2 ...

< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 10/7/2012 1:53:17 PM >


_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 6
RE: DABigBabes Scenario 30 vs. Stock Scen.2 - am i miss... - 10/7/2012 1:56:37 PM   
US87891

 

Posts: 198
Joined: 1/2/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

And the other question is: were these weirdnesses WAD? (meaning having a scenario which is a mix between scenario 1 and 2 ?)

quote:

Scenario 30 was originally done by drw61. He did a great job, but it seems some of the econ things might have fell through the crack during the original port-over of scenario 2. I guess it is working as ‘designed’ but not quite working as ‘intended’.

It doesn’t help you much now, but I have asked the site admin guys to fix this as soon as possible. Sorry for any distress this may have caused. Superfluous slaughter of innocent electrons really mucks up ones karma.


(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 7
RE: DABigBabes Scenario 30 vs. Stock Scen.2 - am i miss... - 10/7/2012 3:00:44 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6081
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: US87891


quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

And the other question is: were these weirdnesses WAD? (meaning having a scenario which is a mix between scenario 1 and 2 ?)

quote:

Scenario 30 was originally done by drw61. He did a great job, but it seems some of the econ things might have fell through the crack during the original port-over of scenario 2. I guess it is working as ‘designed’ but not quite working as ‘intended’.

It doesn’t help you much now, but I have asked the site admin guys to fix this as soon as possible. Sorry for any distress this may have caused. Superfluous slaughter of innocent electrons really mucks up ones karma.





Thanks for the clarification mate. Very clear.

My question now is: is the game playable with the OOBs and tools of scenario2 but with the economy of scenario1 (minus the supplies not produced by refineries) ?
I don't mind if it's more complicated or difficult ( love the challenges!), but will the economy hold ( even with draconian measures), if well managed, the impact of this design "mistake"?

Thx


(in reply to US87891)
Post #: 8
RE: DABigBabes Scenario 30 vs. Stock Scen.2 - am i miss... - 10/7/2012 3:05:11 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6081
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

450K HI stockpile in May 42 is fine, actually quite good.  So, I don't think you have any issues there.

If you are short of supply, there are three culprits:

1. you are adding a lot of replacements to your LCU's.  Replacement eat supply at the load cost of the device being replaced.  IJ starts with a lot of units under their respective TOE.  If you have the replacements turned on, you can eat a lot of supply.

2.  Over zealous factory expansion.  1100 supply for each factory expanded.  Most newbies to IJ expand their a/c factories too much too fast .... think of it this way, 30 a/c factories expanded to size 30 is 990,000 supply chewed up.  If you eand engines factories to match ... double it, so now 2,000,000 supply.  And of course you have 78? starting a/c factory locations.  I've seen some expand all of them ... +4,000,000 supply ...

3.  Finally, and oft-overlooked: COMBAT.  If your game is high tempo with lots of combat your LCU's burn through supply at an incredible rate; 10 - 20 x the resting rate easily.  So if your LCU is normally only eating 5 supply/day, in combat it could be eating up 50 supply/day.  Multiply that by 200 LCU's and ....

As a player, you control all 3, but the last one less so.  If your tempo is high, then you have to curtail your expenditures in the other two.  Ex: If you have +300 LCU's committed to a major land campaign in say China, you may not be able to expand your a/c R&D as quickly as someone who stops at the historical boundaries and begins to consolidate.  IJ economy is in fact quite limited.  Your strategy must be bounded by the economy or you will collapse it and give an easy victory to the allies.

In fact, one of the easiest and most effective stategies any allied player can do to a newbie IJ player is simply keep the operational tempo high in '42.  Most IJ players will implode their economy giving the allies an easy victory in '43 as the IJ has no fuel or supply in '43 to defend with.  They will have some fancy new planes though ...

EDIT
To throw a few more bones out here: Read MikeS AAR's. I think there are 3 of them ...
1. You will see MikeS and I frequently talking about supply floors: we won't let supply drop below a certain level in the HI ... we turn off factory expansions to maintain that level. We will have these in all theatres.

2. You will see that we are also really careful about turning replacements on ... very choosy about which units are receiving and when and why. Most units are not and never do the entire game. BTW, this was historically the fact as well. IJ didn't have the economy to fill out all of their TOE's.

3. Both of us are very careful about offensives. They are very expensive and we choose these carefully, have budgets for them and review those budgets carefully as the offensives unfold. I've stopped offensives many times if they are going too far over budget and goals are not being met. Again, consistent with history. IJ scotched quite a few plans as they could not build up the support for the offensive.

4. We expand factories very slowly and carefully. Ok, Mike does it at a snail's pace ... I'm more like an ant's pace. Still, we are only having a few factories repair in any one day, not 10 let alone 20 or 30 as many players do.

Oh, and this is what we do for Scen 1 & 2 ...



Thx Pax! Very interesting! It's clear that managing japanese economy is much more compicated than what it seems at first sight. And probably the most difficult thing is to be able too foresee which will be the consequences of your actions in 1, 2or even 3 years from now!

I'll give another read to those mike Solli's threads u mentioned....

Thanks again

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 9
RE: DABigBabes Scenario 30 vs. Stock Scen.2 - am i miss... - 10/7/2012 3:57:59 PM   
seille

 

Posts: 2105
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline
@Greyjoy

I´m playing the japanese in scenario 2 and we´re now in mid april 1942.
Actually i have 2,9 million tons supply and 211.000 HI points. Only 750k supply in Japan left.

Do you think i´m worried ? No, i´m not, cause i know what the high supply amounts were used for.
A lot to repair, a lot fighting, a lot factory expansion. Had to send a lot supply to China and to many bases added to the japanese empire.
Actually i see a stabilization of my supply situation.

Use tracker, check out what your supply is used for. If this doesn´t help send a turn over to NY59Giants. I´m sure he can help.
Beside this i think reading Mike Sollis AARs is probably very helpful when it comes to japanese economy.

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 10
RE: DABigBabes Scenario 30 vs. Stock Scen.2 - am i miss... - 10/7/2012 4:06:48 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6081
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: seille

@Greyjoy

I´m playing the japanese in scenario 2 and we´re now in mid april 1942.
Actually i have 2,9 million tons supply and 211.000 HI points. Only 750k supply in Japan left.

Do you think i´m worried ? No, i´m not, cause i know what the high supply amounts were used for.
A lot to repair, a lot fighting, a lot factory expansion. Had to send a lot supply to China and to many bases added to the japanese empire.
Actually i see a stabilization of my supply situation.

Use tracker, check out what your supply is used for. If this doesn´t help send a turn over to NY59Giants. I´m sure he can help.
Beside this i think reading Mike Sollis AARs is probably very helpful when it comes to japanese economy.


Yup, i'm not that worried about my actual supplies consumption levels. I'm just worried about this "mix" of an OOB of scen2 with the economy of scen1, also given that in DBB your refineries don't produce supplies so basically japan HI produces "only" 19000 supplies each turn. Also consider that, despite being a scenario-2 style game, japan started the war with 2millions tons less of supplies.

But once again, i'm not worried. Just wanna understands if having the scenario2 OOBs impacts the future sustainability of an economy which is able to produce at best 24,000 supplies every day and has a scenario1 heavy industry potential

(in reply to seille)
Post #: 11
RE: DABigBabes Scenario 30 vs. Stock Scen.2 - am i miss... - 10/7/2012 4:12:42 PM   
seille

 

Posts: 2105
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline
I would send a turn over to Michael or Damian and let them look at. Maybe you can invest some supply to increase your supply production.
As a investment for the future.

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 12
RE: DABigBabes Scenario 30 vs. Stock Scen.2 - am i miss... - 10/7/2012 4:25:02 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 5619
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy



Thx Pax! Very interesting! It's clear that managing japanese economy is much more compicated than what it seems at first sight. And probably the most difficult thing is to be able too foresee which will be the consequences of your actions in 1, 2or even 3 years from now!

I'll give another read to those mike Solli's threads u mentioned....

Thanks again

If you want a quick check on the replacements issue, just go to the info button and choose the industry/troops/resource button. then look at how many support squads you've used since beginning. If you have used say 1000 (you produce 1200/mo, so 1000 isn't a big number actually) then you have used 12 (or is it 15?) x 1000 = 12,000 supply on these alone. You can get a quick cost picture pretty quick if you just sum all of the "used so far" devices and multiply by 10. You might be surprised by the cost here ....



_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 13
RE: DABigBabes Scenario 30 vs. Stock Scen.2 - am i miss... - 10/7/2012 5:02:35 PM   
US87891

 

Posts: 198
Joined: 1/2/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Thanks for the clarification mate. Very clear.

My question now is: is the game playable with the OOBs and tools of scenario2 but with the economy of scenario1 (minus the supplies not produced by refineries) ?
I don't mind if it's more complicated or difficult ( love the challenges!), but will the economy hold ( even with draconian measures), if well managed, the impact of this design "mistake"?

Thx

It should be immenently (sp?) playable. There honestly aren't that many additions to the OOBs and Ships for Hakko Ichiu over stock. Not enough "require" more econ. But Andy added some additional econ to further help Japan out. But not all that much, really, but some.

Just fyi there's scenarios out there that penalize Japan unmercifully but are still playable. So definitely listen to Pax and Mike Soli for any scenario you have going as Japan.

So sorry we flubbed the pooch on this one. But, it is fixed now (for all the good it does you). But I would keep on truckin! The differences are small and well within the great circle of brain-fart-error, so it's only six, or a half dozen, more ounces of misery for the Japanese Ministry of Economic Stability.


< Message edited by US87891 -- 10/7/2012 5:03:26 PM >

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 14
RE: DABigBabes Scenario 30 vs. Stock Scen.2 - am i miss... - 10/7/2012 5:47:30 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6081
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy



Thx Pax! Very interesting! It's clear that managing japanese economy is much more compicated than what it seems at first sight. And probably the most difficult thing is to be able too foresee which will be the consequences of your actions in 1, 2or even 3 years from now!

I'll give another read to those mike Solli's threads u mentioned....

Thanks again

If you want a quick check on the replacements issue, just go to the info button and choose the industry/troops/resource button. then look at how many support squads you've used since beginning. If you have used say 1000 (you produce 1200/mo, so 1000 isn't a big number actually) then you have used 12 (or is it 15?) x 1000 = 12,000 supply on these alone. You can get a quick cost picture pretty quick if you just sum all of the "used so far" devices and multiply by 10. You might be surprised by the cost here ....





Yes, i get it. I surely have been a bit too complacent with replacements on.... Not too much, but surely a lot compared the my initial supply situation.

Got it pax! Thank you a lot

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 15
RE: DABigBabes Scenario 30 vs. Stock Scen.2 - am i miss... - 10/7/2012 5:50:59 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6081
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: US87891

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Thanks for the clarification mate. Very clear.

My question now is: is the game playable with the OOBs and tools of scenario2 but with the economy of scenario1 (minus the supplies not produced by refineries) ?
I don't mind if it's more complicated or difficult ( love the challenges!), but will the economy hold ( even with draconian measures), if well managed, the impact of this design "mistake"?

Thx

It should be immenently (sp?) playable. There honestly aren't that many additions to the OOBs and Ships for Hakko Ichiu over stock. Not enough "require" more econ. But Andy added some additional econ to further help Japan out. But not all that much, really, but some.

Just fyi there's scenarios out there that penalize Japan unmercifully but are still playable. So definitely listen to Pax and Mike Soli for any scenario you have going as Japan.

So sorry we flubbed the pooch on this one. But, it is fixed now (for all the good it does you). But I would keep on truckin! The differences are small and well within the great circle of brain-fart-error, so it's only six, or a half dozen, more ounces of misery for the Japanese Ministry of Economic Stability.




So it's stil playable, right? That's what really matters!
I'll simply try to change my menthality and tweak my industry as i was playing a scenario1game instead of a scenario2.

Not a big deal...just a lot more challenging!

Thank you guys!

(in reply to US87891)
Post #: 16
RE: DABigBabes Scenario 30 vs. Stock Scen.2 - am i miss... - 10/7/2012 6:35:37 PM   
US87891

 

Posts: 198
Joined: 1/2/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
So it's stil playable, right? That's what really matters!
I'll simply try to change my menthality and tweak my industry as i was playing a scenario1game instead of a scenario2.

Not a big deal...just a lot more challenging!

Thank you guys!

Seriously good on you Greyjoy for keeping it up. Lots of other people wouldn't. Your steadfastness in the face of adversity should serve you well in your game. My compliments to you, and my best wishes for your continued sucess

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 17
RE: DABigBabes Scenario 30 vs. Stock Scen.2 - am i miss... - 10/7/2012 10:07:51 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6081
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: US87891


quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
So it's stil playable, right? That's what really matters!
I'll simply try to change my menthality and tweak my industry as i was playing a scenario1game instead of a scenario2.

Not a big deal...just a lot more challenging!

Thank you guys!

Seriously good on you Greyjoy for keeping it up. Lots of other people wouldn't. Your steadfastness in the face of adversity should serve you well in your game. My compliments to you, and my best wishes for your continued sucess


Well, i wouldn't call this an adversity. It's a scenario 1 environement after all, and i have a couple more warships and some more air groups to play with... so, it's just a matter of points of view

Look at what Obvert (one of the many) did with scenario 1 (in his AAR against Jocke) and we can all see that Japan can achieve great results even with a scenario 1 economy!

I doublechecked with Tracker my situation... The war can be fought. I just need to be more carefull with supplies and fuel usage...nothing more

(in reply to US87891)
Post #: 18
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