Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
Moderators: Joel Billings, Sabre21
Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
Well, back to the dark side.....
Alt Victory conditions campaign, latest Beta patch....
Scar and I are at it again, with me as the Germans as a replay of our first go round.
This will be the first time playing the Germans in post 1.05, and I'm looking forward to not battling through the maginot line of fortifications I did the first time around. Of course, coming from just playing the Soviets, its a bit more daunting - I know what a behemoth the Soviets can become if a few things "go wrong" for the Germans in 1941 - even before the blizzard hits.
Overall, I'm prioritizing Leningrad, but in a balanced approach. While all three Army Groups are oriented on geographical objectives, the real focus in 1941 is twofold - first and foremost is destruction of the Red Army through encirclements, and two - denial of personnel and industry centers by rapid advance.
So awaaayyyy we go!
AGN (Reinforced with 20th Pz and most infantry reinforcements), will strike out for Leningrad, with a direct approach - no wide sweep aming at cutting the east bank ports.
AGC (less XXXXVI PzKps and 20th Pz, but probably going to get LAH), will strike toward Moscow on a more northern axis by 3rd Pz Gruppe - aimed at Veliki Luki, and 2nd Pz Group aimed probably toward the Land Bridge - although may swing across the Dniepr if opportunity presents itself.
AGC (reinforced with XXXXVI PzKps) Advance and cross the Dniepr focused on Kharkov - then two PzKps focus on attacking north toward Tula and two focus on the Stalino region. That assumes we've managed to encircle a major portion of forces in the south, and the Soviets are prioritizing defenses in the Moscow/Leningrad area.
Of course, plans only last until contact with the enemy is made, and we'll adjust to fight the enemy and take advantage of opportunies as they present themselves!
Alt Victory conditions campaign, latest Beta patch....
Scar and I are at it again, with me as the Germans as a replay of our first go round.
This will be the first time playing the Germans in post 1.05, and I'm looking forward to not battling through the maginot line of fortifications I did the first time around. Of course, coming from just playing the Soviets, its a bit more daunting - I know what a behemoth the Soviets can become if a few things "go wrong" for the Germans in 1941 - even before the blizzard hits.
Overall, I'm prioritizing Leningrad, but in a balanced approach. While all three Army Groups are oriented on geographical objectives, the real focus in 1941 is twofold - first and foremost is destruction of the Red Army through encirclements, and two - denial of personnel and industry centers by rapid advance.
So awaaayyyy we go!
AGN (Reinforced with 20th Pz and most infantry reinforcements), will strike out for Leningrad, with a direct approach - no wide sweep aming at cutting the east bank ports.
AGC (less XXXXVI PzKps and 20th Pz, but probably going to get LAH), will strike toward Moscow on a more northern axis by 3rd Pz Gruppe - aimed at Veliki Luki, and 2nd Pz Group aimed probably toward the Land Bridge - although may swing across the Dniepr if opportunity presents itself.
AGC (reinforced with XXXXVI PzKps) Advance and cross the Dniepr focused on Kharkov - then two PzKps focus on attacking north toward Tula and two focus on the Stalino region. That assumes we've managed to encircle a major portion of forces in the south, and the Soviets are prioritizing defenses in the Moscow/Leningrad area.
Of course, plans only last until contact with the enemy is made, and we'll adjust to fight the enemy and take advantage of opportunies as they present themselves!
RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
German opening seemed to go fairly well - guess its a pretty standard opening for most folks now.
Air war on turn one was much less productive than the last time I did this - only managed 2676 planes destroyed in exchange for 148.
AGN does well in creating a nice "Baltic Pocket" and one centerd on Kaunas while taking the Baltic Ports and getting panzers over the Daugava. Did not try and take Riga. Both AGN PzKps are well postured to continue toward Pskov, and XXXIX PzKps from AGC is moving in support on AGN's right flank. Don't see these pockets being relieved in the Soviet turn.
I'm going to try and minimize infantry used in reducing pockets across the entire front - focus on trying to keep most of the infantry moving forward, while only using the bare minimum to keeps pockets secured and then reduced - I'm really in no rush to reduce the pockets if they do not block the advance or rail repair - why rush the units re-entering the fight after being rebuilt?
Air war on turn one was much less productive than the last time I did this - only managed 2676 planes destroyed in exchange for 148.
AGN does well in creating a nice "Baltic Pocket" and one centerd on Kaunas while taking the Baltic Ports and getting panzers over the Daugava. Did not try and take Riga. Both AGN PzKps are well postured to continue toward Pskov, and XXXIX PzKps from AGC is moving in support on AGN's right flank. Don't see these pockets being relieved in the Soviet turn.
I'm going to try and minimize infantry used in reducing pockets across the entire front - focus on trying to keep most of the infantry moving forward, while only using the bare minimum to keeps pockets secured and then reduced - I'm really in no rush to reduce the pockets if they do not block the advance or rail repair - why rush the units re-entering the fight after being rebuilt?
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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
AGC has no major issues - usual Bialystok Pocket is formed, and a small 5 or so division pocket just east of Brest Litovsk as well. 2nd and 3rd PzGps link up just west of Minsk, and the panzers are well postured to continue the drive east.
Infantry will need to do some serious marching!
Infantry will need to do some serious marching!
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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
AGS focuses on establishing the Lvov and Kovel Pockets - and hopefully keeping them secure.
If Scar really wants to commit some additional armor, he can probably open a gap, but that is going to be a mixed bag - potentially offering up the relieving force for encirlement. My bet is he'll play it conservative, and see a 3+ hex corridor, withdraw.
If Scar really wants to commit some additional armor, he can probably open a gap, but that is going to be a mixed bag - potentially offering up the relieving force for encirlement. My bet is he'll play it conservative, and see a 3+ hex corridor, withdraw.
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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
The more I see the Lvov pocket, the sillier it appears...
Good luck [:)]
Good luck [:)]
RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
Marquo
The more I see the Lvov pocket, the sillier it appears...
Good luck
This game is a bit silly so it fits [;)]
btw, IdahoNYer You will probably pay the price for moving mot div out of Ventspils
Kamil
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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
Nothing wrong with being Silly[:-]
web exchange
Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi
Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?
Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi
Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?
RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
Random or Non-Random weather?
RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
Random weather
RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
Turn 3; Jul 3, 1941........Clear with mud in the South Soviet Zone
All the pockets held during the Soviet portion of turn 1, although Scar "joined" a few pockets, closing the routes the panzers took through the Baltic States, forcing the infantry to "re-clear" a path. This slowed AGN infantry a bit on turn 2, which, with the mud on turn 3 now, has created some issues - pretty much all of 18th and 16th Armies, plus some infantry in AGC, and most of 17th and all of 11th Armies were caught in the mud.
Also on turn 2, was surprised to find a sizeable Soviet force - estimated at about 10-15 Div - in postion just east of Minsk. I had figured he'd pull back toward the Dniepr and the Land Bridge - which is where I really wanted 2nd and 3rd PzGrps to be t the end of the turn. Didn't happen. Instead, another pocket was established, just ENE of Minsk - but closing the pocket took away the opportunity to dash to the Dniepr.
OK, so here in AGN and AGC at the end of the German moves on turn 3. AGN's two PzKps remain pretty much stationary where they were at the end of turn 2 - XXXXI PzKps is in the mud, infantry is just too far behind due the mud, and there isn't enough fuel in LVI PzKps to deal with the Pskov position without infantry support. 18th and 16th Armies do liquidate the remainder of the Baltic Pockets, and slog toward the stationary panzers. Still, AGN is now about a week behind where I'd like them to be - especially the gap between panzers and infantry.
AGC focuses on eliminating the Soviet pockets. Panzers need the infantry to push much further east, although XXXIX PzKps gains a bridgehead across the Dvina west of Vitebsk - but its just a shallow bridgehead, I really wanted them threatening Veliki Luki now. 2nd PzGrp really focuses on eliminated the Minsk Pocket and waiting for infantry. Lack of fuel is also an issue. On the bright side, both the Bialystock and Minsk Pockets yield numerous Soviet units - and the infantry is clear to move forward.
With some better weather luck next turn, all three PzGrps should be able to resume their advances next turn.
All the pockets held during the Soviet portion of turn 1, although Scar "joined" a few pockets, closing the routes the panzers took through the Baltic States, forcing the infantry to "re-clear" a path. This slowed AGN infantry a bit on turn 2, which, with the mud on turn 3 now, has created some issues - pretty much all of 18th and 16th Armies, plus some infantry in AGC, and most of 17th and all of 11th Armies were caught in the mud.
Also on turn 2, was surprised to find a sizeable Soviet force - estimated at about 10-15 Div - in postion just east of Minsk. I had figured he'd pull back toward the Dniepr and the Land Bridge - which is where I really wanted 2nd and 3rd PzGrps to be t the end of the turn. Didn't happen. Instead, another pocket was established, just ENE of Minsk - but closing the pocket took away the opportunity to dash to the Dniepr.
OK, so here in AGN and AGC at the end of the German moves on turn 3. AGN's two PzKps remain pretty much stationary where they were at the end of turn 2 - XXXXI PzKps is in the mud, infantry is just too far behind due the mud, and there isn't enough fuel in LVI PzKps to deal with the Pskov position without infantry support. 18th and 16th Armies do liquidate the remainder of the Baltic Pockets, and slog toward the stationary panzers. Still, AGN is now about a week behind where I'd like them to be - especially the gap between panzers and infantry.
AGC focuses on eliminating the Soviet pockets. Panzers need the infantry to push much further east, although XXXIX PzKps gains a bridgehead across the Dvina west of Vitebsk - but its just a shallow bridgehead, I really wanted them threatening Veliki Luki now. 2nd PzGrp really focuses on eliminated the Minsk Pocket and waiting for infantry. Lack of fuel is also an issue. On the bright side, both the Bialystock and Minsk Pockets yield numerous Soviet units - and the infantry is clear to move forward.
With some better weather luck next turn, all three PzGrps should be able to resume their advances next turn.
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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
For AGS, we have a heck of a furball in progress. All those carefully laid plans went out the window!
I managed to foul up the German turn 2 moves, allowing Scar to establish a single hex wide corridor into the Lvov Pocket. If that wasn't bad enough, the South Soviet Mud on turn 3 basically entrapped 2+PzKps and all but 6th Army's infantry. Ugly is a calm collected adjective the best I could offer at the start of the turn.
On the bright side, 6th Army infantry and about a Corps of 17th Army infantry was just north of the "mud line". This, with the two "free" Pzkps managed re-seal the Lvov Pocket by firmly entrapping the original relieving force into the Rovno Pocket. With the mud in the south, I send XXXXVI PzKps eastward into the Soviet rear, scattering a few HQs and airfields. This eastward penetration in "clear" weather, leaves another potential Lvov relief force in the "mud" weather. III and XXXXVIII PzKps, in the mud, do the best they can to prevent another relief (and hopefully the mud will help here too) of the Lvov Pocket.
So, a few things can happen here. Best case is that he tries and fails to relieve the Lvov Pocket, leaving this forthcoming relief force (near Proskurov), able to be trapped as well. Most likely is that he'll give up on the relief effort and try to save his remaining troops. Worst case, and this is definately possible, is that he manages to firmly entrap portions of both XXXXVI and XXXXVIII Pzkps. Then it would get REAL ugly....
11th Army and the Rumanians slog eastward through the mud - they need some motorized help here as well as more German infantry - I'm going to have to shift something down here beside some incoming infantry if I really want to threaten the deep portions of the Ukraine.
I managed to foul up the German turn 2 moves, allowing Scar to establish a single hex wide corridor into the Lvov Pocket. If that wasn't bad enough, the South Soviet Mud on turn 3 basically entrapped 2+PzKps and all but 6th Army's infantry. Ugly is a calm collected adjective the best I could offer at the start of the turn.
On the bright side, 6th Army infantry and about a Corps of 17th Army infantry was just north of the "mud line". This, with the two "free" Pzkps managed re-seal the Lvov Pocket by firmly entrapping the original relieving force into the Rovno Pocket. With the mud in the south, I send XXXXVI PzKps eastward into the Soviet rear, scattering a few HQs and airfields. This eastward penetration in "clear" weather, leaves another potential Lvov relief force in the "mud" weather. III and XXXXVIII PzKps, in the mud, do the best they can to prevent another relief (and hopefully the mud will help here too) of the Lvov Pocket.
So, a few things can happen here. Best case is that he tries and fails to relieve the Lvov Pocket, leaving this forthcoming relief force (near Proskurov), able to be trapped as well. Most likely is that he'll give up on the relief effort and try to save his remaining troops. Worst case, and this is definately possible, is that he manages to firmly entrap portions of both XXXXVI and XXXXVIII Pzkps. Then it would get REAL ugly....
11th Army and the Rumanians slog eastward through the mud - they need some motorized help here as well as more German infantry - I'm going to have to shift something down here beside some incoming infantry if I really want to threaten the deep portions of the Ukraine.
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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
So, even with the mud, we're killing alot of Soviets. That's good. Here's the destroyed units so far, at the end of the German turn 3.
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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
Losses for the first three turns. German casualties are a bit heavier than I'd like to see - I've gotten a few too many holds...
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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
Lastly, the forces available..before the big Soviet reinforcement on turn 3.
German panzer losses are a concern - and probably will be for the entire summer campaign. Soviet strength under 4 million - that's the goal...keeping it there.
German panzer losses are a concern - and probably will be for the entire summer campaign. Soviet strength under 4 million - that's the goal...keeping it there.
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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
State of the Panzerwaffe. Note the panzers with a CV of "1" - those in the mud.....
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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
Turn 4; Jul 10, 1941......Clear
Clear weather resumes, and the panzers move eastward! Not the best turn I've played...did it late at night and managed to forget to move the bloody Finns!!!! Geeze!
AGN's 4th Pz Grp - still without infantry which is lagging behind, and low on fuel, manage to isolate 2xRifle Divs and break up the Pskov defensive line, which looked to be more of a "delay" line than a line in which the Soviets intended to try and hold. In any case, both 18th and 16th Army infantry is still struggling to get to the front - and are behind schedule. Without available infantry, Totenkopf moves northward to clear ground west of Lake Peipus.
Overall, AGN needs its infantry forward to make good progress. That's going to take another turn, so perhaps we can launch against the Luga Line on turn 6. With some luck, I'll be able to do a HQ buildup with both PzKps....
Clear weather resumes, and the panzers move eastward! Not the best turn I've played...did it late at night and managed to forget to move the bloody Finns!!!! Geeze!
AGN's 4th Pz Grp - still without infantry which is lagging behind, and low on fuel, manage to isolate 2xRifle Divs and break up the Pskov defensive line, which looked to be more of a "delay" line than a line in which the Soviets intended to try and hold. In any case, both 18th and 16th Army infantry is still struggling to get to the front - and are behind schedule. Without available infantry, Totenkopf moves northward to clear ground west of Lake Peipus.
Overall, AGN needs its infantry forward to make good progress. That's going to take another turn, so perhaps we can launch against the Luga Line on turn 6. With some luck, I'll be able to do a HQ buildup with both PzKps....
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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
AGC panzers don't do much - probe a bit forward, identifying the defense of the Land Bridge and threaten Mogilev. Basically we're waiting for infantry to come up, and intended to do an HQ build with both PzKps of 2nd Pz Grp. However, I managed to fat finger the XXXXVII PzKps HQ to move by mistake, so only XXIV PzKps managed to get the HQ build. I really wanted both PzKps to bust through the Land Bridge, but now that doesn't look promising. We'll see. 3rd Pz Grp needs fuel - its too far to HQ build for now.
Infantry slug forward and lead infantry divisions reach the front line, with many starting to cross the Berezina River. 2xRifle Divs in whats left of the Minsk pocket refuse to surrender - numerous retreats and 2xholds.
Infantry slug forward and lead infantry divisions reach the front line, with many starting to cross the Berezina River. 2xRifle Divs in whats left of the Minsk pocket refuse to surrender - numerous retreats and 2xholds.
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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
AGS finally begins to shake things out and resume the offensive. The mud definately helped!! In the Soviet portion of turn 3, the Soviets begin to abandon the Lvov Pocket, but are slow to disengage due to the mud. The panzers take full adavantage - with pretty good fuel levels! Two PzKps - the XXXXVI and XIV, slice north of Vinnesta, while two, III and XXXXVIII, advance SE, creating the Vinnista Pocket with about 12 or so divisions. This pocket should hold. 11th Army links up with the Panzer Push, creating a smaller pocket just to the SW - this will likely be broken.
Even so, a good turn for AGS - momentum is restored and sizeable amounts of Soviets are pocketed. Also positive is that 6th Army infantry is up and attacking.
On the debit side, the Rumanians are struggling (of course). 17th Army is also lagging, dealing with the Lvov Pocket - and now will have to deal with the new pockets. The panzers probably shot their bolt for a while, they are well far from sufficient supply now, but the Soviet defenses should be sporadic at best if these pockets hold.
Even so, a good turn for AGS - momentum is restored and sizeable amounts of Soviets are pocketed. Also positive is that 6th Army infantry is up and attacking.
On the debit side, the Rumanians are struggling (of course). 17th Army is also lagging, dealing with the Lvov Pocket - and now will have to deal with the new pockets. The panzers probably shot their bolt for a while, they are well far from sufficient supply now, but the Soviet defenses should be sporadic at best if these pockets hold.
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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
ORIGINAL: IdahoNYer
AGS finally begins to shake things out and resume the offensive. The mud definately helped!! In the Soviet portion of turn 3, the Soviets begin to abandon the Lvov Pocket, but are slow to disengage due to the mud. The panzers take full adavantage - with pretty good fuel levels! Two PzKps - the XXXXVI and XIV, slice north of Vinnesta, while two, III and XXXXVIII, advance SE, creating the Vinnista Pocket with about 12 or so divisions. This pocket should hold. 11th Army links up with the Panzer Push, creating a smaller pocket just to the SW - this will likely be broken.
Excellent job with AGS, Scar must be struggling to regain his balance in face of this deep incursion. With so many units pocketed, he probably has little choice but to divert units here that would be of greater importance to stop AGN, or the northern pincer of AGC.
Seems the mud turn here did help you more than it hurt. With generally poor MPs, the Soviets get struck worse than the Landsers. Good timing on your part to have Panzergruppe 1 exploit that. I think in AGC sector there is another benefit mud may have offered you: maybe going through the cramped landbridge is your best choice? Look at Mogilev, it's only managed to get fort level 1. Maybe the front door is unlocked? Same may be true for routing Panzergruppe 3 on a northerly way past Vitebesk through Gorodok? That's pretty poor terrain there for mobile units, but if your recon is complete, there is also little resistance?
RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
The SU units around Vinnitsa where not in the the turn1 lovov pocket right?
looks like u got a big chunk of the SU forces pocketed down south now.
looks like u got a big chunk of the SU forces pocketed down south now.