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Drang Nach Osten - Revisited

 
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Drang Nach Osten - Revisited - 10/5/2012 6:40:57 AM   
IdahoNYer


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Well, back to the dark side.....

Alt Victory conditions campaign, latest Beta patch....

Scar and I are at it again, with me as the Germans as a replay of our first go round.

This will be the first time playing the Germans in post 1.05, and I'm looking forward to not battling through the maginot line of fortifications I did the first time around. Of course, coming from just playing the Soviets, its a bit more daunting - I know what a behemoth the Soviets can become if a few things "go wrong" for the Germans in 1941 - even before the blizzard hits.

Overall, I'm prioritizing Leningrad, but in a balanced approach. While all three Army Groups are oriented on geographical objectives, the real focus in 1941 is twofold - first and foremost is destruction of the Red Army through encirclements, and two - denial of personnel and industry centers by rapid advance.

So awaaayyyy we go!

AGN (Reinforced with 20th Pz and most infantry reinforcements), will strike out for Leningrad, with a direct approach - no wide sweep aming at cutting the east bank ports.

AGC (less XXXXVI PzKps and 20th Pz, but probably going to get LAH), will strike toward Moscow on a more northern axis by 3rd Pz Gruppe - aimed at Veliki Luki, and 2nd Pz Group aimed probably toward the Land Bridge - although may swing across the Dniepr if opportunity presents itself.

AGC (reinforced with XXXXVI PzKps) Advance and cross the Dniepr focused on Kharkov - then two PzKps focus on attacking north toward Tula and two focus on the Stalino region. That assumes we've managed to encircle a major portion of forces in the south, and the Soviets are prioritizing defenses in the Moscow/Leningrad area.

Of course, plans only last until contact with the enemy is made, and we'll adjust to fight the enemy and take advantage of opportunies as they present themselves!
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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited - 10/5/2012 6:52:22 AM   
IdahoNYer


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German opening seemed to go fairly well - guess its a pretty standard opening for most folks now.

Air war on turn one was much less productive than the last time I did this - only managed 2676 planes destroyed in exchange for 148.


AGN does well in creating a nice "Baltic Pocket" and one centerd on Kaunas while taking the Baltic Ports and getting panzers over the Daugava. Did not try and take Riga. Both AGN PzKps are well postured to continue toward Pskov, and XXXIX PzKps from AGC is moving in support on AGN's right flank. Don't see these pockets being relieved in the Soviet turn.

I'm going to try and minimize infantry used in reducing pockets across the entire front - focus on trying to keep most of the infantry moving forward, while only using the bare minimum to keeps pockets secured and then reduced - I'm really in no rush to reduce the pockets if they do not block the advance or rail repair - why rush the units re-entering the fight after being rebuilt?




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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited - 10/5/2012 6:58:26 AM   
IdahoNYer


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AGC has no major issues - usual Bialystok Pocket is formed, and a small 5 or so division pocket just east of Brest Litovsk as well. 2nd and 3rd PzGps link up just west of Minsk, and the panzers are well postured to continue the drive east.

Infantry will need to do some serious marching!




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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited - 10/5/2012 7:03:45 AM   
IdahoNYer


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AGS focuses on establishing the Lvov and Kovel Pockets - and hopefully keeping them secure.

If Scar really wants to commit some additional armor, he can probably open a gap, but that is going to be a mixed bag - potentially offering up the relieving force for encirlement. My bet is he'll play it conservative, and see a 3+ hex corridor, withdraw.







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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited - 10/5/2012 2:18:49 PM   
Marquo


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The more I see the Lvov pocket, the sillier it appears...

Good luck

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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited - 10/5/2012 2:36:15 PM   
Kamil

 

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quote:

Marquo

The more I see the Lvov pocket, the sillier it appears...

Good luck


This game is a bit silly so it fits



btw, IdahoNYer You will probably pay the price for moving mot div out of Ventspils

< Message edited by Kamil -- 10/5/2012 2:37:26 PM >

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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited - 10/5/2012 6:08:18 PM   
sillyflower


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Nothing wrong with being Silly

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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited - 10/5/2012 6:21:41 PM   
hfarrish


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Random or Non-Random weather?

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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited - 10/6/2012 3:55:10 AM   
IdahoNYer


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Random weather

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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited - 10/9/2012 2:09:10 AM   
IdahoNYer


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Turn 3; Jul 3, 1941........Clear with mud in the South Soviet Zone

All the pockets held during the Soviet portion of turn 1, although Scar "joined" a few pockets, closing the routes the panzers took through the Baltic States, forcing the infantry to "re-clear" a path. This slowed AGN infantry a bit on turn 2, which, with the mud on turn 3 now, has created some issues - pretty much all of 18th and 16th Armies, plus some infantry in AGC, and most of 17th and all of 11th Armies were caught in the mud.

Also on turn 2, was surprised to find a sizeable Soviet force - estimated at about 10-15 Div - in postion just east of Minsk. I had figured he'd pull back toward the Dniepr and the Land Bridge - which is where I really wanted 2nd and 3rd PzGrps to be t the end of the turn. Didn't happen. Instead, another pocket was established, just ENE of Minsk - but closing the pocket took away the opportunity to dash to the Dniepr.

OK, so here in AGN and AGC at the end of the German moves on turn 3. AGN's two PzKps remain pretty much stationary where they were at the end of turn 2 - XXXXI PzKps is in the mud, infantry is just too far behind due the mud, and there isn't enough fuel in LVI PzKps to deal with the Pskov position without infantry support. 18th and 16th Armies do liquidate the remainder of the Baltic Pockets, and slog toward the stationary panzers. Still, AGN is now about a week behind where I'd like them to be - especially the gap between panzers and infantry.

AGC focuses on eliminating the Soviet pockets. Panzers need the infantry to push much further east, although XXXIX PzKps gains a bridgehead across the Dvina west of Vitebsk - but its just a shallow bridgehead, I really wanted them threatening Veliki Luki now. 2nd PzGrp really focuses on eliminated the Minsk Pocket and waiting for infantry. Lack of fuel is also an issue. On the bright side, both the Bialystock and Minsk Pockets yield numerous Soviet units - and the infantry is clear to move forward.

With some better weather luck next turn, all three PzGrps should be able to resume their advances next turn.




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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited - 10/9/2012 2:22:56 AM   
IdahoNYer


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For AGS, we have a heck of a furball in progress. All those carefully laid plans went out the window!

I managed to foul up the German turn 2 moves, allowing Scar to establish a single hex wide corridor into the Lvov Pocket. If that wasn't bad enough, the South Soviet Mud on turn 3 basically entrapped 2+PzKps and all but 6th Army's infantry. Ugly is a calm collected adjective the best I could offer at the start of the turn.

On the bright side, 6th Army infantry and about a Corps of 17th Army infantry was just north of the "mud line". This, with the two "free" Pzkps managed re-seal the Lvov Pocket by firmly entrapping the original relieving force into the Rovno Pocket. With the mud in the south, I send XXXXVI PzKps eastward into the Soviet rear, scattering a few HQs and airfields. This eastward penetration in "clear" weather, leaves another potential Lvov relief force in the "mud" weather. III and XXXXVIII PzKps, in the mud, do the best they can to prevent another relief (and hopefully the mud will help here too) of the Lvov Pocket.

So, a few things can happen here. Best case is that he tries and fails to relieve the Lvov Pocket, leaving this forthcoming relief force (near Proskurov), able to be trapped as well. Most likely is that he'll give up on the relief effort and try to save his remaining troops. Worst case, and this is definately possible, is that he manages to firmly entrap portions of both XXXXVI and XXXXVIII Pzkps. Then it would get REAL ugly....

11th Army and the Rumanians slog eastward through the mud - they need some motorized help here as well as more German infantry - I'm going to have to shift something down here beside some incoming infantry if I really want to threaten the deep portions of the Ukraine.




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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited - 10/9/2012 2:28:59 AM   
IdahoNYer


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So, even with the mud, we're killing alot of Soviets. That's good. Here's the destroyed units so far, at the end of the German turn 3.




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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited - 10/9/2012 2:31:03 AM   
IdahoNYer


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Losses for the first three turns. German casualties are a bit heavier than I'd like to see - I've gotten a few too many holds...




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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited - 10/9/2012 2:57:11 AM   
IdahoNYer


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Lastly, the forces available..before the big Soviet reinforcement on turn 3.

German panzer losses are a concern - and probably will be for the entire summer campaign. Soviet strength under 4 million - that's the goal...keeping it there.




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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited - 10/9/2012 2:58:31 AM   
IdahoNYer


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State of the Panzerwaffe. Note the panzers with a CV of "1" - those in the mud.....




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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited - 10/11/2012 3:12:11 AM   
IdahoNYer


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Turn 4; Jul 10, 1941......Clear

Clear weather resumes, and the panzers move eastward! Not the best turn I've played...did it late at night and managed to forget to move the bloody Finns!!!! Geeze!

AGN's 4th Pz Grp - still without infantry which is lagging behind, and low on fuel, manage to isolate 2xRifle Divs and break up the Pskov defensive line, which looked to be more of a "delay" line than a line in which the Soviets intended to try and hold. In any case, both 18th and 16th Army infantry is still struggling to get to the front - and are behind schedule. Without available infantry, Totenkopf moves northward to clear ground west of Lake Peipus.

Overall, AGN needs its infantry forward to make good progress. That's going to take another turn, so perhaps we can launch against the Luga Line on turn 6. With some luck, I'll be able to do a HQ buildup with both PzKps....




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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited - 10/11/2012 3:31:03 AM   
IdahoNYer


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AGC panzers don't do much - probe a bit forward, identifying the defense of the Land Bridge and threaten Mogilev. Basically we're waiting for infantry to come up, and intended to do an HQ build with both PzKps of 2nd Pz Grp. However, I managed to fat finger the XXXXVII PzKps HQ to move by mistake, so only XXIV PzKps managed to get the HQ build. I really wanted both PzKps to bust through the Land Bridge, but now that doesn't look promising. We'll see. 3rd Pz Grp needs fuel - its too far to HQ build for now.

Infantry slug forward and lead infantry divisions reach the front line, with many starting to cross the Berezina River. 2xRifle Divs in whats left of the Minsk pocket refuse to surrender - numerous retreats and 2xholds.




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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited - 10/11/2012 3:42:14 AM   
IdahoNYer


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AGS finally begins to shake things out and resume the offensive. The mud definately helped!! In the Soviet portion of turn 3, the Soviets begin to abandon the Lvov Pocket, but are slow to disengage due to the mud. The panzers take full adavantage - with pretty good fuel levels! Two PzKps - the XXXXVI and XIV, slice north of Vinnesta, while two, III and XXXXVIII, advance SE, creating the Vinnista Pocket with about 12 or so divisions. This pocket should hold. 11th Army links up with the Panzer Push, creating a smaller pocket just to the SW - this will likely be broken.

Even so, a good turn for AGS - momentum is restored and sizeable amounts of Soviets are pocketed. Also positive is that 6th Army infantry is up and attacking.

On the debit side, the Rumanians are struggling (of course). 17th Army is also lagging, dealing with the Lvov Pocket - and now will have to deal with the new pockets. The panzers probably shot their bolt for a while, they are well far from sufficient supply now, but the Soviet defenses should be sporadic at best if these pockets hold.




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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited - 10/11/2012 12:31:08 PM   
janh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IdahoNYer
AGS finally begins to shake things out and resume the offensive. The mud definately helped!! In the Soviet portion of turn 3, the Soviets begin to abandon the Lvov Pocket, but are slow to disengage due to the mud. The panzers take full adavantage - with pretty good fuel levels! Two PzKps - the XXXXVI and XIV, slice north of Vinnesta, while two, III and XXXXVIII, advance SE, creating the Vinnista Pocket with about 12 or so divisions. This pocket should hold. 11th Army links up with the Panzer Push, creating a smaller pocket just to the SW - this will likely be broken.


Excellent job with AGS, Scar must be struggling to regain his balance in face of this deep incursion. With so many units pocketed, he probably has little choice but to divert units here that would be of greater importance to stop AGN, or the northern pincer of AGC.

Seems the mud turn here did help you more than it hurt. With generally poor MPs, the Soviets get struck worse than the Landsers. Good timing on your part to have Panzergruppe 1 exploit that. I think in AGC sector there is another benefit mud may have offered you: maybe going through the cramped landbridge is your best choice? Look at Mogilev, it's only managed to get fort level 1. Maybe the front door is unlocked? Same may be true for routing Panzergruppe 3 on a northerly way past Vitebesk through Gorodok? That's pretty poor terrain there for mobile units, but if your recon is complete, there is also little resistance?

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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited - 10/12/2012 1:39:12 PM   
juret

 

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The SU units around Vinnitsa where not in the the turn1 lovov pocket right?
looks like u got a big chunk of the SU forces pocketed down south now.

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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited - 10/15/2012 12:17:40 AM   
IdahoNYer


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Turn 5; Jul 17, 1941.......Clear

Clear weather holds across the front (surprisingly), and all three Army Groups make fair to good progress eastwards.

AGN struggles forward, low on fuel and infantry just now starting to reach the front lines. 18th Army, primarily advancing west of Lake Peipus, led by Totenkopf SS Mot, hasn't encountered any significant enemy contact. 4th Pz Grp's two PzKps advance through the Pskov position. The lavishly equipped Soviet 3rd Tk Div is isolated, but the 163rd Mot Division delays 6th Pz Divs advance northward in four separate attacks without breaking. Progress is made, albeit slowly. 16th Army's infantry is just starting to come up, is just making contact with Soviet units to the east of 4th Pz Grp, whose flank it needs to protect.

Next major hurdle is the enemy dug in on the Luga River - will need both fuel and infantry to effectively breach that defensive line and put pressure on Leningrad's inner defensive perimeter.




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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited - 10/15/2012 12:35:11 AM   
IdahoNYer


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AGC has mixed results - to the extreme on both sides.

2nd Pz Grp opens up the offensive with 4th Army infantry taking Mogilev and opening up a bridgehead across the Dniepr for XXXXVII PzKps. XXXXVII PzKps comes across, making short work of raw Soviet Rifle Divisions in the line, and opening up a huge hole for for the freshly rested and refit XXIV PzKps which tears through the gap, heading NE toward Smolensk.

This attack was to be the southern prong of a major encirclement with 3rd Pz Grp. However, 3rd Pz Grp's main effort, the LVII PzKps, with added infantry support from 9th Army is stopped pretty much cold in attempting to breach the Soviet defenses of the Land Bridge. Of 9 attacks, 6 are held! LVII PzKps advances a total of 20 miles and doesn't penetrate the Soviet defenses. North of Vitebsk, XXXIX PzKps was to have struck out towards Veliki Luki - however, with the failure south of Veliki Luki, XXXIX PzKps attack is "shortened" and after penetrating the Soviet defenses, hooks around Vitebsk from the north and links up with the struggling LVII PzKps.

The attack by XXXIX PzKps actually salvages the situation somewhat. A small 9 division pocket is formed around Vitebsk, which is likely to be broken of course. This also creates a situation for the Soviets - with 2nd Pz Grp deep into the Soviet Dniepr Position toward Smolensk, do they attempt to retain the position and counterattack (attempt to isolate the German panzers) or attempt to pull back? Attempting to hold and isolate may be dangerous as German infantry of the 9th and 4th Armies are finally just coming up in force and should be able to turn the tables on any Soviet attempts.

While XXXIX PzKps' 7th Pz is exposed, as is all of 2nd Pz Grp's XXIV PzKps, I'm confident the German infantry can bull their way foward to any Soviet stand.

Will be an interesting turn coming up!




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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited - 10/15/2012 12:47:08 AM   
IdahoNYer


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AGS continues to excel. While the Soviets temporarily re-established contact with the Vinnista Pocket, 1st Pz Grp managed to seal it a bit tighter, as well as push further eastwards. 6th Army continues to press toward Kiev, while protecting the flank of 1st Pz Grp and ensuring the pocket is sealed from the north. 17th Army is still primarily engaged in clearing the Lvov Pocket, with about two Korps moving foward to engage the Vinnista Pocket. 11th Army links with 1st Pz Grp in the south and presses eastward - augmented by the newly arrived 60th Mot Div.

Unfortunately, the Rumanians still manage to accomplish little - and two German division are cut to the Rumanians to "encourage" their progress - which is painfully slow.

Overall, progress remains excellent, but sustaining the eastward thrust while liquidating the estimated 20-30 Soviet divisions currently isolated is going to be challenging.




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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited - 10/16/2012 12:49:43 AM   
IdahoNYer


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Turn 6; Jul 24, 1941........Clear

Good weather continues and the panzers continue to roll east!

AGN's 4th Pz Grp, still low on fuel, continues to press NE toward Leningrad. Led by 1st Pz Div, the drive gains some 40 miles and gains a bridgehead across the Luga River.

Soviet defenses are thinner than expected, with resistance keying in swamp terrain. The advance is limited more by lack of fuel than determined Soviet forces.

On 4th Pz Grp's left flank, 18th Army clears the Baltic States, taking Talinin and turns east north of Lake Piepus, meeting little to no resistance.

To the right, 16th Army continues to protect 4th PZ Grp's right flank, but the Army is being stretched thin as 3rd Pz Grp stays south of Veliki Luki. This will cause problems as little pressure is being exerted on Soviet forces south of Novgorod and Lake Ilmen - which will allow the Soviets to reposition forces to Leningrad's inner defenses.

With 18th Army's infantry finally arriving in force, the advance can begin to assault Lenningrad's outer defenses in the coming weeks.




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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited - 10/16/2012 12:56:06 AM   
IdahoNYer


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AGC weather's heavy Soviet counter attacks against the isolated 7th Pz Div NW of Smolensk, and then turn the tables on the Soviets. 3rd Pz Grp, supported by 9th Army's infantry firmly isolate the Vitebsk Pocket and link up with 2nd Pz Grp advancing across the Dniepr just west of Smolensk. 2nd Pz Grp, supported by 4th Army's infantry establishes a smaller pocket of Soviet forces still defending the Dniepr.

4th Army infantry cross the Dniepr in force supporting 2nd Pz Grp, and begin to push toward Bryansk.




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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited - 10/16/2012 1:31:04 AM   
IdahoNYer


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AGS continues to march east and tear up the Soviets in its path; the Soviets having apparently fallen back behind the Dnepr, leaving only scattered forces in a delaying action.

6th Army's infantry continues to press towards Kiev while its XXXXVI PzKps reach the Dniepr just south of Kiev. 17th Army eliminates the last of the Lvov Pocket and begins to liquidate the Vinnista Pocket, freeing up 1st Pz Grp forces to continue eastwards - which reach the Dnepr near Cherkassy as well as taking Kirovograd and Krivoi Rog. 11th Army, led by 60th Mot, aims toward Nikolaev and the Lower Dnepr. Lastly, the Rumanian 4th Army continues to plod toward Odessa and the Rum 3rd Army regroups after the last of the Lvov Pocket is secured. Many Rumanian formations will transition to garrison duties in the coming weeks.

Overall, progress here has been very good, but now at the Dnepr, we'll need to pause for fuel and infantry to come up. While the Dnepr defenses are not necessarily strong, they are established to a certain degree and will require infantry support to breach effectively.

The Soviets have been very successful in at least one area - they have succeeded in pulling industry out before panzers arrived in all cases, except for some HI in Mogilev. Hopefully the pressure against the Dnepr Bend, Leningrad and Bryansk in the coming weeks will forces the Soviets to make some tough choices of which industry needs to be moved.




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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited - 10/16/2012 9:28:29 PM   
IdahoNYer


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Turn 7; Jul 31, 1941.......Clear

Good weather continues! Across the entire front, Soviet forces look to be thinning, but supply issues prevent full exploitation.

AGN's 4th Pz Grp bulls its way forward 20 miles past its Luga River bridgehead against moderate opposition. Poor terrain for armor and lack of supply hinder efforts more than enemy troops - which are mainly newly raised, raw divisions. 18th Army finally comes up in force, which should help matters considerably. 16th Army continues to provide adequate flank cover for 4th Pz Grp, but lacks the offensive power to push eastward sufficiently.

Overall, the arrival of 18th Army infantry should be enough to tip the balance in the German's favor to cut Leningrad off. That's assuming what we're encountering at Leningrad's Outer Defenses is similar in quality to Leningrad's inner defenses.

What is really needed is an operational pause to rest, refit and refuel for a week or two. That of course could backfire, giving the Soviets that amount of time to dig in deeper. I figure at some point in August, mud will hit, forcing a week of rest.....till then, we continue to push forward.




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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited - 10/16/2012 9:40:31 PM   
IdahoNYer


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In AGC's sector, I had really planned on an operational pause....but recon of Soviet defenses east of Smolensk didn't identify anything substantial, so the plan changed to a movement to contact.

3rd Pz Grp attempts to move north, to strike east of Veliki Luki toward Rzhev - it manages to encirle two rifle divisions in the process, and its XXXIX PzKps conducts an HQ buildup as well. Barring mud, this force will strike out for Rzhev next week. Detatched is the LVII PzKps which advances east toward Vyazma and Moscow unapposed.

2nd Pz Grp, badly in need of rest and refuel, also pushes eastward. Its XXIV PzKps also drives toward Vyazma, while its XXXXVII PzKps shifts slightly ESE toward Kaluga. There looks to be a line forming near Vyazma, but of unknown strength. With the current fuel situation, any type of defensive line will likely force a pause to bring up supplies.

9th Army infantry liquidates the Vitebsk Pocket without any issues and pushes eastward to support both Pz Grps.

4th Army advances along a broad front tward Bryansk - lacking motorized forces, its a slow, methodical advance - which is sufficient to brush back the current opposition.





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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited - 10/16/2012 9:50:57 PM   
IdahoNYer


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From: NYer living in Boise, ID
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AGS clears the western bank of the Dnepr as it advances to the Dnepr Bend.

6th Army, first on the Dnepr, executes a deliberate attack with XXXXVI PzKps and achieves a small bridgehead just SE of Kiev. 6th Army has the capability to bring infantry into the fray, which should enable it to expand the bridgehead in the coming weeks, as well as force the evacuation of Kiev.

1st Pz Grp continues to move rapidly east. Its XXXXVIII PzKps isolates the screening cavalry, enabling III PzKps to advance to the outskirts of Dnepropetrovsk, which still has its full industrial capacity intact. XIV PzKps recons the eastern bank of the Dnepr, looking for a lightly defended crossing site. These advances, while impressive, lack sufficient infantry or supply to fully exploit. This will take 17th Army to fully exploit these gains.

17th Army finishes off the Vinnista Pocket and lumbers eastward - all too slowly....It needs to get to the Dnepr rapidly to sustain 1st Pz Grp's success, not allowing the Soviets time to strengthen their defenses along the river.

11th Army begins to swing to the SE, to cross the lower Dnepr and the Crimea.

Overall, good success west of the Dnepr. Catching a large force in the Vinnista Pocket was a big plus, but the supply situation is now going to force a halt. Will attempt to get forces across the Dnepr, but that will be a slow process with the current supply status.




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(in reply to IdahoNYer)
Post #: 29
RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited - 10/23/2012 1:49:00 AM   
IdahoNYer


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Joined: 9/6/2009
From: NYer living in Boise, ID
Status: offline
Turn 8; Aug 7, 1941........Clear

Overall, progress has been solid across the front. All three Army Groups have had great success, but all three are now in need of an operational pause. Supply and fatigue have slowed progres more than Soviet defenses in recent weeks. I was figuring on mud forcing a pause somewhere, but July remained clear and dry - not complaining! Just unexpected.

Screen shot shows the overview of the front - AGC making the best progress of the three Army Groups. AGN still surging toward Leningrad, limited more by supply and fatigue than heavy defenses. AGS, also limited more by the sheer distances involved than anything else.




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