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Still waiting a war game that can simulate this

 
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Still waiting a war game that can simulate this - 10/2/2012 11:44:04 AM   
Jakerson

 

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Battle of Tolvajärvi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tolvaj%C3%A4rvi

One lightly armed Finnish regiment about 4000 men go offensive against two heavily armed soviet divisions and one tank brigade over 20 000 men. Finns don’t have other anti-tank weapons than wooden logs and homemade Molotov cocktail. Finns have only couple artillery pieces that don’t have any ammo. Finns dont have any tanks or air force supporting their offensive while soviet has over 10-100 times strong air superiority in sector. Soviet have plenty of artillery and heavy weapons and soviet ammo stockpiles are full.

Result of Finnish offensive when smoke clears Finns lose 100 men killed and 250 wounded. Soviet lose over 10 000 men and 59 armored vehicles.





< Message edited by Jakerson -- 10/2/2012 11:47:37 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Still waiting a war game that can simulate this - 10/2/2012 2:09:51 PM   
SapperAstro

 

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Well...

According to your wiki entry:

'Finnish losses were over 100 dead and 250 wounded. The Soviet losses are thought to be over 1000 dead and a lot of equipment: the guns of two artillery batteries, AT-guns, some twenty tanks (T-26s for example) and 60 machineguns. The battle was an important offensive victory for the Finns and was very important for the morale of the whole Finnish Army.'

So not as dramatic as your entry.

It would probably fit in this engine. I daresay it would make a great mini campaign for Close Combat too...I really enjoyed Luers Finn mod for the Close Combat games.

(in reply to Jakerson)
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RE: Still waiting a war game that can simulate this - 10/3/2012 11:31:15 AM   
Jakerson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SapperAstro

Well...

According to your wiki entry:

'Finnish losses were over 100 dead and 250 wounded. The Soviet losses are thought to be over 1000 dead and a lot of equipment: the guns of two artillery batteries, AT-guns, some twenty tanks (T-26s for example) and 60 machineguns. The battle was an important offensive victory for the Finns and was very important for the morale of the whole Finnish Army.'

So not as dramatic as your entry.

It would probably fit in this engine. I daresay it would make a great mini campaign for Close Combat too...I really enjoyed Luers Finn mod for the Close Combat games.



Just couple facts. There are always argument about real casulties so you have to look bigger picture. Soviet 139 Rifle Division suffered so heavy casulties in Battle of Tolvajärvi that what was left of it was pulled in reserve and replaced with Soviet 75th Rifle divisions.

After that 139 Rifle division was dispanded and used as replacement men for other units.

Soviet dont pull their divisions in the reserve and dispand them unless their casulties are over 50-80%. Soviets wont dispand divisions or pull them away from front line and stop attacking in that sector if they just lose 10% losses.

You have to look for bigger picture. At start of the battle 139 Rifle division that was speaheading battle of tolvajärvi had over 10 000 men. Why soviet pulled it away from offensive if it only lost 10% casulties? Not to mention that whole division was dispanded shortly after it was replaced with 75th rifle division.

Explanation is that those casulties were in reality a lot bigger and that 1000 casulty claim is added just by propaganda purpose. Soviet troops at tolvajärvi sector had about 20 000 men in total. Soviet generals that have 20 000 men under their command do not allow their troops to pull back from offensive after losing 1000 men that is less that 5% of total TOE losses.

< Message edited by Jakerson -- 10/3/2012 11:32:53 AM >

(in reply to SapperAstro)
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RE: Still waiting a war game that can simulate this - 10/3/2012 12:09:37 PM   
GoodGuy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SapperAstro

It would probably fit in this engine. I daresay it would make a great mini campaign for Close Combat too...I really enjoyed Luers Finn mod for the Close Combat games.


Actually, it would suit the engine very well. It would be somewhat like POE's Brevity scenarios, regarding scope and number of possible approaches.

quote:



'Finnish losses were over 100 dead and 250 wounded. The Soviet losses are thought to be over 1000 dead and a lot of equipment: the guns of two artillery batteries, AT-guns, some twenty tanks (T-26s for example) and 60 machineguns. The battle was an important offensive victory for the Finns and was very important for the morale of the whole Finnish Army.'

So not as dramatic as your entry.


Soviet losses were downplayed after the war, but even the finnish losses seem to be a bit low in that wiki article. The "1000+" reflects the actual official rough body count, but the Russians kept finding bodies in all theaters during the following spring and summer, when the warm weather then allowed for accessing areas like swamps and lakes, which were covered with snow and ice, before, and it seems that they did not include these numbers. There's still debate about the Russian casualty numbers, but it seems like Russian historians indeed estimate some 5,000+ killed Russian soldiers, some Finnish (imho exaggerating) estimations seem to range up to 10,000 casualties. Some ppl on Feldgrau estimate that some 4000 Russians and some 2000 Finns were killed. Whatsoever, this first vital victory led to the almost complete destruction of the Russian 139th Rifle Division, around 10 days later. There were Russian Coys where only 1 survivor came back.

Right before the battle, the Russian 718th Regiment was actually assembling/preparing for an attack, they expected just the 4 known Finnish Bns to be in the area, as only these had faced the Russians for 2 weeks. In fact, the 4 Bns (Bn 11, detachment Räsänen [3 Bns] and a bigger artillery detachment from the 6th Division) had been reinforced by the Inf Reg 16, which had been deployed just east of Kotisaari island, at the western bank of Lake Tolvajärvi, in order to stop the Russian progress.
Considering the Finnish Inf Regiment and 4 Inf Bns faced 1 full-blown Russian rifle division (139th) in the area and another Russian Rifle Division (75th) entering the area (at the northern bend of the lake, IIRC), I'd say the Finns did pretty well, even though the northern pincer attack was repulsed. The southern pincer destroyed the Russian Inf Reg 364 defending the Kotisaari Island, after it had stopped the Russian progress at the south eastern bend. The southern pincer then either could not make any progress, or it was considered to be useless to proceed, as the northern pincer had failed. A costly attack on the Russian center, across the open (well the frozen lake), then enabled the Finns to capture a couple of positions on the eastern bank, forcing the Russian 609th Reg to withdraw. The operation showed that the Finns, who knew the area and knew how to use the terrain, could beat a superior and better equipped enemy force that obviously had a hard time to coordinate defensive measures.

http://www.winterwar.com/Battles/Tolvaj.htm

The planned pincer movement during the Battle of Tolvajärvi is quite interesting, as the Finnish plan involved crossing the frozen Lake Tolvajärvi by not just 2 pincer contingents, but by a center force as well. The Command Ops engine can't render frozen lakes/rivers currently, I guess, unless someone creates a new terrain layer that reflects the difficulties frozen waterways impose on foot units and/or motorized units.

According to author Jari Leskinen ("Talvisodan pikkujättiläinen", book from 1999) 26,662 Finnish soldiers were killed during the Winter War, so Mannerheim's memoirs from 1950 seem to be quite truthful there, as he stated 25,000 (he would only admit 15,000 publicly right after the Winter War) killed troops, in these memoirs. The Red Army indicated 60,000 Finns killed, afaik, a bold exaggeration triggered by internal political pressure.

The official Russian statements (after the war) regarding the number of casualties indicate around 48,000 Russians killed and some 159,000 wounded. Russian historians today estimate 127,000 killed and missing, and 265,000 wounded or sick.

In turn, Finnish historians estimate that 230,000 - 270,000 Russians were killed and 200,000 - 300,000 wounded and sick (starvation and frost bites caused by lack of food and lack of proper clothing). The number of wounded and sick soldiers sounds realistic: afaik, the Russian food supply system worked very well during WWII, especially 1943-1945. Advancing Russian units were well fed and other supplies were available too, generally, but before the army reforms, means before the Winter War, quite some units were not equipped for operating under the weather conditions in Eastern and especially Northern (arctic) Finland.

That said, it's quite impressive how such a small force/country had put up such a stubborn resistance against superior numbers, until the Russians finally put more effort (and troops) into the operation. By the end of the war, the Russians had pumped 1 million troops into this campaign's treadmill.

< Message edited by GoodGuy -- 10/3/2012 1:43:38 PM >


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(in reply to SapperAstro)
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RE: Still waiting a war game that can simulate this - 10/3/2012 1:25:01 PM   
phoenix

 

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Ah, those heroic Finns....all that sisu. Shame about the reparations and Porkkala, not to mention all of southern Karelia, including Viipuri etc. Be great to see a game featuring either Finnish war, I agree.

(in reply to GoodGuy)
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RE: Still waiting a war game that can simulate this - 10/3/2012 2:14:13 PM   
wodin


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I too have an interest in the Finish War and the Continuation War. HPS Squad battles Winter war is a good little game...

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RE: Still waiting a war game that can simulate this - 10/4/2012 5:27:43 AM   
Deathtreader


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From: Vancouver, Canada.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jakerson

Battle of Tolvajärvi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tolvaj%C3%A4rvi

One lightly armed Finnish regiment about 4000 men go offensive against two heavily armed soviet divisions and one tank brigade over 20 000 men. Finns don’t have other anti-tank weapons than wooden logs and homemade Molotov cocktail. Finns have only couple artillery pieces that don’t have any ammo. Finns dont have any tanks or air force supporting their offensive while soviet has over 10-100 times strong air superiority in sector. Soviet have plenty of artillery and heavy weapons and soviet ammo stockpiles are full.

Result of Finnish offensive when smoke clears Finns lose 100 men killed and 250 wounded. Soviet lose over 10 000 men and 59 armored vehicles.



Hi,

Yup... a much undergamed front of WWII military operations.

The upcoming Legends of the Blitzkrieg variant of the Command Ops system could probably do this battle justice.

What do you think Bil H ????

Rob.







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(in reply to Jakerson)
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RE: Still waiting a war game that can simulate this - 10/4/2012 1:59:49 PM   
Jakerson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GoodGuy

The planned pincer movement during the Battle of Tolvajärvi is quite interesting, as the Finnish plan involved crossing the frozen Lake Tolvajärvi by not just 2 pincer contingents, but by a center force as well. The Command Ops engine can't render frozen lakes/rivers currently, I guess, unless someone creates a new terrain layer that reflects the difficulties frozen waterways impose on foot units and/or motorized units.


This is one of largest reason why it is hard to mod this in command ops. One other reason is that am not sure if is it possible to simulate a lot better mobility of finnish ski troops in command ops.


quote:

That said, it's quite impressive how such a small force/country had put up such a stubborn resistance against superior numbers, until the Russians finally put more effort (and troops) into the operation. By the end of the war, the Russians had pumped 1 million troops into this campaign's treadmill.


I think most of Finns during that time thought that Finland would only last week max two if lucky this is reason why battle of tolvajärvi was very important igniter for Finnish troops proving that defense was possible.

(in reply to GoodGuy)
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RE: Still waiting a war game that can simulate this - 10/13/2012 1:29:01 PM   
Jakerson

 

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Some thinks that Finnish people are fiercely nationalistic fanatics that never give up something like that because they repulsed much larger Soviet army in winter war.
In reality nationalism don’t make soldier fight hard for long. Reality of war eat away all nationalism pretty rapidly in few days it don’t make soldier fight countering dozens of massive attacks and then counter attacking taking back lost trenches in fierce close combat day after day weeks or even months. Some parts of Finnish defense line switched sides more than dozen times still Finns were able to take them back.

Why Finnish soldiers then fought so hard?

Largest reason are that Finns trusted their officers, Finnish troops had good morale because many units where filled up with men who were knew each other since childhood and from same geographical area. Finnish troops in same unit did not share just uniform in many cases they were brothers and friends who shared whole childhood. Finnish troops wanted to survive but you cannot do that just by running away from combat when your side is defending. Also Finns hated Russian troops.
Last but not least victory at Tolvajärvi battle made finnish troops to believe in miracle. It was final step in long process that made Finnish troops fight over expectations.

This is what make a men fight hard over all expectations against all odds it comes from many sources you cannot trust a soldier who only reason to fight is nationalism.

If you compere this to Soviet troops they did not trust officers and in many cases they were forced to attack under threat of execution by political officer. Soviet troops many case shared only uniform but not whole childhood.

Bravery and nationalism are actually pretty weak reason to fight and in make cases only lead everybody trying just to save their own skin in the end but saving a brother and all childhood friends people who you trust and love are pretty much stronger reasons just not to give up. Who wants to be first to betray people who you trust and love? But if you have to fight with people who are strangers to you it is lot more easier to betray them just to save own skin.

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RE: Still waiting a war game that can simulate this - 10/13/2012 7:15:38 PM   
wodin


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Regarding the OP. This is why i think commander stats should really have a massive impact on the game..that way with the right commander stats you could get results like this.

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RE: Still waiting a war game that can simulate this - 10/30/2012 6:03:17 PM   
wodin


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GD'42 the boardgame simulates this..see the AAR I put up in the general discussion forum..and back me in wanting a PC conversion.

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