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RE: Trippin' the Trappen

 
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RE: Trippin' the Trappen - 11/25/2012 6:55:24 PM   
Reconvet

 

Posts: 353
Joined: 1/17/2011
Status: offline 		Okay, sounds like a bad bug. But couldn't you agree on some turns of truce without moving units to let your units recover supplies and readiness, and introduce a houserule not to bomb bridges while this bug persists?

You two put a lot of time into this game, it really would be a shame to end it without trying to bypass this problem. I was very eager to see your winter offensive.

_____________________________

The biggest threat for mankind is ignorance.


(in reply to wallas)
Post #: 151
RE: Trippin' the Trappen - 11/25/2012 7:30:57 PM   
LiquidSky


Posts: 834
Joined: 6/24/2008
Status: offline

The order of play would be...my turn: Bomb bridge. End turn: Calculate supply for opponent. His Turn: Repair bridge.

Because of this, you could, theoretically, keep the bridge bombed, so that supply NEVER flows over it...despite the bridge being repaired every turn.

As for the bridge bombing bug, I seem to be unable to recreate it in the Uranus scenario, it only appears for the frozen river bridges in our game. They bridge is given 0 hp's. THe unfrozen rivers still have 500 per level. I wonder if it is an artifact from playing a 1.04 scenario on a 1.05 engine, or if one of my mods somehow borked it. But it wasn't a bug that allowed me to bomb the Saratov bridge.

Anyways, for our next game, we will probably set Rule# 305: Bridges cannot be destroyed by combat ON. Or I will have to write a card to allow bridge building. I don't like the engineers building bridges as it is too easy, and bridges will pop up everywhere. (thus trivializing rivers).

_____________________________

To the right General Patton, to the left the British Army, to the rear our own artillery, and besides all that its raining. And the only good thing to say about the weather: it keeps our air corps from blowing us all to Hell because its too lousy to fly.

(in reply to wallas)
Post #: 152
RE: Trippin' the Trappen - 11/25/2012 7:33:02 PM   
LiquidSky


Posts: 834
Joined: 6/24/2008
Status: offline

Actually, ending the game isn't that big of a problem, as we both considered this a 'learning' game. We know each other, so another game will be in the offering. I think I will wait for Vic to post the next patch though, and spend some time until then writing events.

_____________________________

To the right General Patton, to the left the British Army, to the rear our own artillery, and besides all that its raining. And the only good thing to say about the weather: it keeps our air corps from blowing us all to Hell because its too lousy to fly.

(in reply to LiquidSky)
Post #: 153
RE: Trippin' the Trappen - 11/25/2012 7:51:41 PM   
LiquidSky


Posts: 834
Joined: 6/24/2008
Status: offline

POST game thoughts:

Even if a Russian unit is small, and ripe for breaking...you will lose 1-2 strength points attacking it.

AA will grind your stuka force down, even if the Russians never intercept with planes.

Tblisi Supply center must be built.

Hardcore supply will give you less supply to your front units then regular supply. That is because the path from High Command to Unit pays a cheaper AP cost for supply movement, then from ARMY/CORP HQ to unit.

Infantry is your best bang for your PP buck. You only get 5-8 strength points for the other cards. You get like 50-100 for an infantry card.

The Russian airforce should never attack, but instead just intercept the Germans to wear them down. Then use it to attack.

The SS are easy to keep at full strength by playing one SS infantry card. ( I got 7300 men when I played it) Use them to lead all hard attacks.

You can fly air supply missions to an adjacent city for only 10AP cost to give the supply to your entire front. This is something else I am going to change: Rule# 857 Air Supply Type Movement is set at 9. Rule#858 Air Supply Range is set for 250 AP. I will probably change the first one to foot movement (0) and I might shorten the range (although foot movement will definitely shorten the range). Perhaps flying air supply should take all your movement, with the number of AP's spent in flight a multiplier (or divisor).






_____________________________

To the right General Patton, to the left the British Army, to the rear our own artillery, and besides all that its raining. And the only good thing to say about the weather: it keeps our air corps from blowing us all to Hell because its too lousy to fly.

(in reply to LiquidSky)
Post #: 154
RE: Trippin' the Trappen - 11/25/2012 7:58:51 PM   
Vic


Posts: 3441
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: online 		Hi guys,

Sorry for the sudden end. Are you playing PBEM++ or PBEM? In the latter case i would be able to make some manual changes to your savegame.

There is a bug with the frozen river bridge structural points indeed. Confirmed. Thanks for finding it, altough i really dislike you find it in such a long running game. However even if the bridge would act as normal there remains the flaw that after Stalingrad is encircled all soviet supply hinges on a single bridge!. I guess it could be overcome by positioning lots of engineers and flak and interceptors, but it is a little to gamey for my liking and to much a bad surprise for the player who does not know this soviet achilels heel. I am making some adjustments for v1.05 in making supply for Soviets easier to cross rivers (which is not a-historical) and maybe adding another bridge at Saratov.

I would be interested in some further feedback for supply states for German and Soviet units in the Caucasus as well. I already made some changes in v1.04 making Soviet sea supply cheaper 3->2ap so that the Soviets can keep fighting if close to rail even without Grozny supply center. I guess the core supply problems are in the middle of the steppe far away from rail?

Best,
Vic

< Message edited by Vic -- 11/25/2012 8:09:15 PM >

_____________________________

Victor Reijkersz Designs
www.vrdesigns.nl

(in reply to LiquidSky)
Post #: 155
RE: Trippin' the Trappen - 11/25/2012 8:05:11 PM   
LiquidSky


Posts: 834
Joined: 6/24/2008
Status: offline

Its a race between losing too much infantry, and taking down the Russians. Even in my game, with the horrendous losses the Russians took...he was still going to get a dozen rifle divisions over then next few turns. And would have hurt me somewhere with them.

I try to only attack when I get a card to play to boost my attack..it seems to minimize losses by making the enemy retreat sooner. The axis minors always attack when they have 3 hex sides, or a weak unit in front of them. The axis minors are horrible on defense, so might as well kill some Russians with them before they die. Just try and keep their spirit over 90.

In my game, I disbanded the artillery for the trucks. Don't do that. Better to disband the motorized infantry divisions. They have less strength then an infantry division, and a useless little tank unit that will break if attacked.

The SS motorized brigade doesn't get divisional bonus. So it is better as a defensive unit, or disbanded to feed the two SS mot divs.

When you attack, you lose readiness and entrenchment level. So the counterattack could do more damage then your initial attack, and cost you defensive ground.

Artillery really rips entrenchment levels down. Airpower seems to do a little bit. Both reduce readiness. All serious attacks need them first.

Try to avoid giving your opponent multiple hexes on your units. There are few hexes that can withstand a 4 hexside assault.

_____________________________

To the right General Patton, to the left the British Army, to the rear our own artillery, and besides all that its raining. And the only good thing to say about the weather: it keeps our air corps from blowing us all to Hell because its too lousy to fly.

(in reply to LiquidSky)
Post #: 156
RE: Trippin' the Trappen - 11/25/2012 8:21:14 PM   
LiquidSky


Posts: 834
Joined: 6/24/2008
Status: offline

Ahh..hello Vic! no need to adjust our game, as my opponent and I are friends, and actually do the turns while talking to each other over Ventrilo. As a result, we have pretty much discussed this game to death, with no more suprises. We will start a new game, using the lessons learned in this one.

Looking at a supply layer from OKH, It costs 73AP's to get to Yenotayovsk on the Volga near Astrakahn. So my Panzer Korp is mostly yellow supply, which is why I am resting it for a couple of turns. The Rumanians are better off, as there is a rail head closer, and the Italians/Germans near the coast are practically right on top of one.

I do think that supply is a tad too easy, even with the hard core supply rules. Although I still have to be careful with HQ placement.

My post game discussion with my opponent came up with:

Extra bridges over the Volga....two edged, as extra bridges mean extra crossing points for the Germans.
Making the Volga bridges permanent/non bombable. My friend and I hate house rules in general.
Using the rulevar that stops bridges from being destroyed by combat. We like the idea of blowing bridges in the early game, just not the Volga bridges.
Making Supply movement cheaper for the Russians. Or cheaper over a destroyed bridge hexside.

I seem to recall a funny saying from the movie Kelly's Heroes.....the General was complaining that he ordered all enemy bridges to be blown over the rivers. An aide says they are blowing them, but that the Germans are rebuilding them at night...so he says, just blow them up again. It would suggest that some supply would still flow over the river. Perhaps river barges, ferries, or quick fix bridges. So even if mech units can't drive over the hex, supply would probably still move.

_____________________________

To the right General Patton, to the left the British Army, to the rear our own artillery, and besides all that its raining. And the only good thing to say about the weather: it keeps our air corps from blowing us all to Hell because its too lousy to fly.

(in reply to LiquidSky)
Post #: 157
RE: Trippin' the Trappen - 11/25/2012 11:32:55 PM   
LiquidSky


Posts: 834
Joined: 6/24/2008
Status: offline
Some more random observations:

Partisans only seem to show up in the original German areas...not in any of the newly conquered ones.

Units do train up slowly to their national maximums. Almost all my Minor Axis were at 40 exp. However, I don't think I ever noticed a unit gaining experience in combat.

Paulus has emergency troops....which makes him useful to keep in command. Instead I spent PP's to take units away from him to give to Manstein.

Emergency troops make wonderful invasion units. They take very little supply, you can carry a lot of them, and it doesn't matter if you lose them...as you will always make more.

< Message edited by LiquidSky -- 11/25/2012 11:33:35 PM >

_____________________________

To the right General Patton, to the left the British Army, to the rear our own artillery, and besides all that its raining. And the only good thing to say about the weather: it keeps our air corps from blowing us all to Hell because its too lousy to fly.

(in reply to LiquidSky)
Post #: 158
RE: Trippin' the Trappen - 11/26/2012 1:06:14 PM   
Keunert


Posts: 876
Joined: 9/9/2010
Status: offline 		Thank you both for a very interesting aar. it played out different than my limited Trappenjagd experience and it sure is a completely different game compared to the Case Blue scenario's.

(in reply to LiquidSky)
Post #: 159
RE: Trippin' the Trappen - 11/26/2012 1:13:18 PM   
Bonners


Posts: 463
Joined: 8/24/2012
From: Stockport, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Keunert

Thank you both for a very interesting aar. it played out different than my limited Trappenjagd experience and it sure is a completely different game compared to the Case Blue scenario's.


+1 loads of interesting stuff in here, have really enjoyed reading it.

(in reply to Keunert)
Post #: 160
RE: Trippin' the Trappen - 11/27/2012 9:25:34 PM   
wallas

 

Posts: 100
Joined: 2/4/2005
Status: offline 		POST game thoughts: My Soviet Perspective With Hard Core Supply Rules

Always study your supply routes behind your lines and understand your logistics, and avenues of withdrawal.
Protect anything with 5 hexes of the front line if you cannot afford to lose it.
Axis can take any hex they want.
Axis minors preform similiar to your non guard units in combat, so if even odds or less dont fear them.
If under the effect of command faliure apply next two bullets.
Do not commit air till after command faliure goes away.
Best defensive tactic backup 2 hexes with clear terrain, if any terrain river, rough etc between you and the axis, 1 hex is enough.
Hold and dig in ONLY when in terrain that is NOT clear if your facing axis armour.(or be prepared for a 5 hex penetration)
If not facing axis armour no need to panic he can hurt you, but it will attrition him to attack so let the lines snake.
Try and stretch the german lines, give ground infront of his armour onslaught (refer to above bullet)
Appoint leaders who will not suffer out of depth.
Armour never in front line unless attacking with it, or desperate to fill wholes.(use behind lines to zoc incase of penetration)
When attacking make sure to always leave a few infantry regiments out of the battle so they stay entrenched incase of counter attack.
Use artillery before all attacks, its your luftwaffe.
Protect artillery never use it in front lines.(you never get more as reinforcments)
Building new units (Front HQ, Anti Tank, Anti Aircraft, Destroyer Brigades are useful, and Artillery Divisions Later)
Disband all armour brigades, motorized infantry divisions, and infantry brigades (personal preference)
Use replacements from Previous bullet for on map divisions, or build destroyer brigades "2 month wait on these for experience gain"
Anti Tank guns are your best static unit for inflicting tanks losses.(down side truck cost hurts, destroyer brigades work also)
Save 30% of your reinforcement division corp cards or more per month for instant offensive later.(tax yourself lol)
Non division or corp reinforcments disband immediately.(personal preference)
Attach engineers, air and naval to Stavka. (personal preference)
Tiblisi card is worth the cost but yeah I know ouch. (not sure I am sold but the bonus supply is nice)

Final point every game is unique, so none of the above may apply or I might be crazy

< Message edited by wallas -- 11/27/2012 11:53:28 PM >

(in reply to Reconvet)
Post #: 161
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