Things I would like to see in "the patch"

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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Things I would like to see in "the patch"

Post by Peltonx »

LVOV pocket is unhistorical and so is blizzard effects of 41/42. Both need to be fixed at the same time.

The huge mistakes 2by3 keeps making in many patchs is they nerf something that effects one side and dont ever take into account the patches effects on other parts of the game.

The player base is very smart over all and simply see the trees in the forrest and take advantage of the patch.

This is why we have been subject to wild swings in play balaance of which many players have simply stopped playing the game because 2by3 seems blind to these swings and the effects it has on games and more importantly the player base. I am hoping this standard MO of patching is not done when witw comes out as it is a game killer for many players.

The game is 10000% times better then it was and is getting close to "finished"

1. Lvov pocket has to be "fixed"
2. Blizzard effects need to be "fixed"
3. Finish bottle neck "fixed".
4.It has been stated that a turn by turn VP sytem would not be possible, but if industry was made harder to rail out then the SHC would be forsed to fight forward. The lvov pocket nerf will give them allot more troops, but upping the replasemeent rate I beleive would also be needed. What % I am not sure mybee Flaviusx would be the best SHC player to ask.

The player base would have to test these changes and some small tweats would be needed, but once tweeks are done wite would be done for good.

I beleive these changes would end the ballroom dancing feel the game has right now from 41-43.
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RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch"

Post by Peltonx »

Lvov pocket fix

SHC moves first.

Some SHC units in the south would be given X mp's to move withen a small area near Lvov. This should make a huge pocket not possible, but make small ones possible
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RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch"

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2. Blizzard effects need to be "fixed"

The current effects would last 2 turns - the upped MP's for SHC units nerfed. Pockets would still be possible if GHC is stupid.

Then GHC CV is lowered by 25% and SHC upped by 25% until February, no morale tanking just because.

The % might have to be tweaked some, not real sure.

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RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch"

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3. Finish bottle neck "fixed".

No railing units above hex X,Y before turns 5,6 or 7. I think if the GHC does not attack withen 1 or 2 turns then sure the SHC should be able to use the bottle neck.
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RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch"

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4. Fighting forward.

Increase all rail cost by 33% ?

Increase replasement rate of SHC?

41 +10
42 + 5
43 - 45 same as current.
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RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch"

Post by TulliusDetritus »

5. Historical OOB and replacements in 1941. From what V. D. Sokolovski says in his book at least 150 rifle divisions and dozens of rifle brigades are absent in the first vital 6 months of the war... can you imagine that? Roughly 200 more counters? [;)] They are lacking ergo defending like a stubborn mule (as the Red Army did) makes no sense. In fact it's a suicide.

edit: in case of doubt, ask Tarhunnas what he thought after fighting like the Red Army did, just to discover there was *nothing* left behind... And that's where these real life reserves I am mentioning are the KEY...

edit 2: and needless to say, as long as this is not fixed stubborn fights are totally out of the question: VPs, defend key places (aka die), do not retreat etc. etc.
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RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch"

Post by janh »

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
5. Historical OOB and replacements in 1941. From what V. D. Sokolovski says in his book at least 150 rifle divisions and dozens of rifle brigades are absent in the first vital 6 months of the war... can you imagine that? Roughly 200 more counters? [;)]

This is a weired thing you brought up with that a while ago. Like so many things, also the OOBs are well researched in WitE I find. And just as with many other things, if there are discprepancies, the devs either did it on purporse and with a good rationale, or the resources any one refers to are all but unambiguous.

Unfortunately I know too little about that side of things. How many of these counters would be filled out units, or say 30% ToE counters? How many would be pure training cadres, which in case of the German (Ersatzheer etc.) are not depicted and of importance for the fighting part of the game itself? How many were mere shells, how many saw combat? Would it translate in a larger manpower modifier, a larger starting manpower pool, or cheaper "division rebuilt" cost?
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RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch"

Post by TulliusDetritus »

ORIGINAL: janh
ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
5. Historical OOB and replacements in 1941. From what V. D. Sokolovski says in his book at least 150 rifle divisions and dozens of rifle brigades are absent in the first vital 6 months of the war... can you imagine that? Roughly 200 more counters? [;)]

This is a weired thing you brought up with that a while ago. Like so many things, also the OOBs are well researched in WitE I find. And just as with many other things, if there are discprepancies, the devs either did it on purporse and with a good rationale, or the resources any one refers to are all but unambiguous.

Unfortunately I know too little about that side of things. How many of these counters would be filled out units, or say 30% ToE counters? How many would be pure training cadres, which in case of the German (Ersatzheer etc.) are not depicted and of importance for the fighting part of the game itself? How many were mere shells, how many saw combat? Would it translate in a larger manpower modifier, a larger starting manpower pool, or cheaper "division rebuilt" cost?

Well, as I have said it's what Sokolovski (Marshall of the soviet Union) says.

He clearly says that between the 22 june and 1 december (1941) "150 Rifle Divisions and 44 Rifle Brigades were sent to the front". All these units were reserves. I guess the Stavka white armies we see on the first turn: 16, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 and 24 armies (if I remember correctly) have to be part of these reserves in fact: but they only make grosso modo 35 divisions...

Then he adds that these reserves sent to the front were only the "52% of the reserve divisions and 44% of the reserve brigades". He is not talking about an amorphous mass, he talks about divisions and brigades. Therefore Stavka is still keeping as reserves (by the 1 december) the 48% of the rifle divisions (almost 150 rifle divisions) and the 56% of the brigades (above 50)...

It's already been mentioned: the current replacement rates in no way can simulate the real Red Army historical losses [8D]

EDIT: what Tarhunnas didn't have is precisely these extra reserves kept by Stavka (by the 1 december that is). This was obvious: he ran out of counters, taking, let's not forget it, more or less historical losses.
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RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch"

Post by mevstedt »

I believe (assumption though) that part of the reason why soviet replacements are lower than historical as well as any lack of units is because the developers didn't want the soviet army to end up in an ahistorically strong position based on hindsight as most players will avoid the initial soviet pitfalls and would then end up in a better position than historically. This is somewhat odd though as the german army ends up in better shape (in part due to the same hindsight) by the start of the blizzard.

Also, I assume that since the soviet player can build divisions and brigades at his own discretion the choice was to not include every reserve unit. That is just speculation however, as I am unaware of how accurate the russian OOB is in the grand campaign(s).
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RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch"

Post by TulliusDetritus »

ORIGINAL: mevstedt
Also, I assume that since the soviet player can build divisions and brigades at his own discretion the choice was to not include every reserve unit. That is just speculation however, as I am unaware of how accurate the russian OOB is in the grand campaign(s).

Impossible [:)] You have to pay 20 APs for every Rifle Division you create (during the vital 6 first months). And why should you pay when they were already available and for free? OK, destroyed rifle divisions will be rebuilt. This doesn't resolve the problem though.. as Tarhunnas didn't have these circa 200 counters in time, when he was literally running out of counters.

I don't know if this will be fixed, but it would help a lot (along with more replacements of course)... fighting forward, taking historical losses... The lousy morale and experience + command penalties of the Red Army units should make sure the Germans advance the same like the knife in the butter... but taking losses in the process...
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RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch"

Post by Aurelian »

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

5. Historical OOB and replacements in 1941. From what V. D. Sokolovski says in his book at least 150 rifle divisions and dozens of rifle brigades are absent in the first vital 6 months of the war... can you imagine that? Roughly 200 more counters? [;)] They are lacking ergo defending like a stubborn mule (as the Red Army did) makes no sense. In fact it's a suicide.

edit: in case of doubt, ask Tarhunnas what he thought after fighting like the Red Army did, just to discover there was *nothing* left behind... And that's where these real life reserves I am mentioning are the KEY...

edit 2: and needless to say, as long as this is not fixed stubborn fights are totally out of the question: VPs, defend key places (aka die), do not retreat etc. etc.


Let's not forget the 10 engineering armies. The 10 Reserve Armies. All the German units that *do not* leave as they did in reality.

But the dev/design team doesn't have the time to do much more than bug fixes. Any large changes, (like the Lvov thing), would have to wait for WiTE 2. At least if IIRC.)
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RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch"

Post by TulliusDetritus »

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

5. Historical OOB and replacements in 1941. From what V. D. Sokolovski says in his book at least 150 rifle divisions and dozens of rifle brigades are absent in the first vital 6 months of the war... can you imagine that? Roughly 200 more counters? [;)] They are lacking ergo defending like a stubborn mule (as the Red Army did) makes no sense. In fact it's a suicide.

edit: in case of doubt, ask Tarhunnas what he thought after fighting like the Red Army did, just to discover there was *nothing* left behind... And that's where these real life reserves I am mentioning are the KEY...

edit 2: and needless to say, as long as this is not fixed stubborn fights are totally out of the question: VPs, defend key places (aka die), do not retreat etc. etc.


Yet's not forget the 10 engineering armies. The 10 Reserve Armies. All the German units that *do not* leave as they did in reality.

Yep, the 10 Sapper Armies created by stavka to prepare defensive lines [8D] Disbanded in 1943, but until that date: dig dig dig... or die!
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RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch"

Post by mmarquo »

"You have to pay 20 APs for every Rifle Division you create (during the vital 6 first months). And why should you pay when they were already available and for free?"


This is the cost of activating them; calling up the reservists and then railing them to front; that is what the APs are for.

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RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch"

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ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
ORIGINAL: mevstedt
Also, I assume that since the soviet player can build divisions and brigades at his own discretion the choice was to not include every reserve unit. That is just speculation however, as I am unaware of how accurate the russian OOB is in the grand campaign(s).

Impossible [:)] You have to pay 20 APs for every Rifle Division you create (during the vital 6 first months). And why should you pay when they were already available and for free? OK, destroyed rifle divisions will be rebuilt. This doesn't resolve the problem though.. as Tarhunnas didn't have these circa 200 counters in time, when he was literally running out of counters.

I don't know if this will be fixed, but it would help a lot (along with more replacements of course)... fighting forward, taking historical losses... The lousy morale and experience + command penalties of the Red Army units should make sure the Germans advance the same like the knife in the butter... but taking losses in the process...

German loses were very very low considering how many millions of russian troops they pocketed. The CV's would have to be lowered to reflex how horrible the russians were during 41 and 42. The German still kicked them around like a usless dog in early 42, dispite 100" of divisions.

The facts are russian loses during 42 nd 43 were higher then 41. Basicly mindless Orcs attacking using WW1 tactics.

Its is truely amazing how the GHC with 1/4 the troops(The SHC had better equipement) simply kicked the Red army around like a rag doll. 1943 and 44 Russian loses were staggering and they had much better equipment and far more of everything.


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RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch"

Post by Speedysteve »

Too harsh Pelton. You do realise these are people you're talking about and hypothetically some of them could even be reading this!

Sure we know the errors and the brutality and the relative skill of certain sides and tactics etc. Try to at least explain things in a civil manner
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RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch"

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There that should be better
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RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch"

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ORIGINAL: Pelton
German loses were very very low considering how many millions of russian troops they pocketed. The CV's would have to be lowered to reflex how horrible the russians were during 41 and 42. The German still kicked them around like a usless dog in early 42, dispite 100" of divisions.

Well, that's another issue. Suffice to say that the 900.000 losses they inflicted to the Wehrmacht before the General Winter had arrived made the whole difference... as the Germans were forced to launch a limited offensive on next year (which in plain English means they could not finish an enemy who was supposed to be dead meat). Not too bad when you only think about surviving...

I agree with your 1., 2., 3. and 4. issues by the way... as long as point 5. is part of the deal though [:)]
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RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch"

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ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

ORIGINAL: Pelton
German loses were very very low considering how many millions of russian troops they pocketed. The CV's would have to be lowered to reflex how horrible the russians were during 41 and 42. The German still kicked them around like a usless dog in early 42, dispite 100" of divisions.

Well, that's another issue. Suffice to say that the 900.000 losses they inflicted to the Wehrmacht before the General Winter had arrived made the whole difference... as the Germans were forced to launch a limited offensive on next year (which in plain English means they could not finish an enemy who was supposed to be dead meat). Not too bad when you only think about surviving...

I agree with your 1., 2., 3. and 4. issues by the way... as long as point 5. is part of the deal though [:)]


I would think we would be looking for game balance not to make sure your side has the I win button all the time.[:-]
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RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch"

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ORIGINAL: Pelton
I would think we would be looking for game balance not to make sure your side has the I win button all the time.[:-]

You got it wrong. This is about having what was available in the real thing... And then everyone will be happy: fighting like stubborn mules will finally be possible (it will erode the Wehrmacht, inflict losses that they can't afford to finish the bear). Millions of prisoners. 6 million casualties (or was it 7) by the end of the year 1941.

Don't you have all the axis units that fought in the real thing? I want exactly the same. Nothing less. Nothing more. It's supposed to be the Great Patriotic War or Eastern Front, as you prefer [8D]
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RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch"

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ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

ORIGINAL: Pelton
I would think we would be looking for game balance not to make sure your side has the I win button all the time.[:-]

You got it wrong. This is about having what was available in the real thing... And then everyone will be happy: fighting like stubborn mules will finally be possible (it will erode the Wehrmacht, inflict losses that they can't afford to finish the bear). Millions of prisoners. 6 million casualties (or was it 7) by the end of the year 1941.

Don't you have all the axis units that fought in the real thing? I want exactly the same. Nothing less. Nothing more. It's supposed to be the Great Patriotic War or Eastern Front, as you prefer [8D]

Sure I do, but you have to have the combat ratio reflex historical loses, the leadership #'s of SHC would have to be lowered to 1 in 90% of the army to reflex their understanding of military tactics which was zero. Most of the real generals were shot, leaving a bunch of Obama's to be generals.
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