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Things I would like to see in "the patch"

 
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Things I would like to see in "the patch" - 9/29/2012 1:24:00 PM   
Pelton

 

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LVOV pocket is unhistorical and so is blizzard effects of 41/42. Both need to be fixed at the same time.

The huge mistakes 2by3 keeps making in many patchs is they nerf something that effects one side and dont ever take into account the patches effects on other parts of the game.

The player base is very smart over all and simply see the trees in the forrest and take advantage of the patch.

This is why we have been subject to wild swings in play balaance of which many players have simply stopped playing the game because 2by3 seems blind to these swings and the effects it has on games and more importantly the player base. I am hoping this standard MO of patching is not done when witw comes out as it is a game killer for many players.

The game is 10000% times better then it was and is getting close to "finished"

1. Lvov pocket has to be "fixed"
2. Blizzard effects need to be "fixed"
3. Finish bottle neck "fixed".
4.It has been stated that a turn by turn VP sytem would not be possible, but if industry was made harder to rail out then the SHC would be forsed to fight forward. The lvov pocket nerf will give them allot more troops, but upping the replasemeent rate I beleive would also be needed. What % I am not sure mybee Flaviusx would be the best SHC player to ask.

The player base would have to test these changes and some small tweats would be needed, but once tweeks are done wite would be done for good.

I beleive these changes would end the ballroom dancing feel the game has right now from 41-43.


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

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Post #: 1
RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch" - 9/29/2012 1:28:39 PM   
Pelton

 

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Lvov pocket fix

SHC moves first.

Some SHC units in the south would be given X mp's to move withen a small area near Lvov. This should make a huge pocket not possible, but make small ones possible

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

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Post #: 2
RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch" - 9/29/2012 1:32:18 PM   
Pelton

 

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2. Blizzard effects need to be "fixed"

The current effects would last 2 turns - the upped MP's for SHC units nerfed. Pockets would still be possible if GHC is stupid.

Then GHC CV is lowered by 25% and SHC upped by 25% until February, no morale tanking just because.

The % might have to be tweaked some, not real sure.



< Message edited by Pelton -- 9/29/2012 1:33:00 PM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 3
RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch" - 9/29/2012 1:35:00 PM   
Pelton

 

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3. Finish bottle neck "fixed".

No railing units above hex X,Y before turns 5,6 or 7. I think if the GHC does not attack withen 1 or 2 turns then sure the SHC should be able to use the bottle neck.

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

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Post #: 4
RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch" - 9/29/2012 1:39:14 PM   
Pelton

 

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4. Fighting forward.

Increase all rail cost by 33% ?

Increase replasement rate of SHC?

41 +10
42 + 5
43 - 45 same as current.

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 5
RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch" - 9/29/2012 3:41:10 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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5. Historical OOB and replacements in 1941. From what V. D. Sokolovski says in his book at least 150 rifle divisions and dozens of rifle brigades are absent in the first vital 6 months of the war... can you imagine that? Roughly 200 more counters? They are lacking ergo defending like a stubborn mule (as the Red Army did) makes no sense. In fact it's a suicide.

edit: in case of doubt, ask Tarhunnas what he thought after fighting like the Red Army did, just to discover there was *nothing* left behind... And that's where these real life reserves I am mentioning are the KEY...

edit 2: and needless to say, as long as this is not fixed stubborn fights are totally out of the question: VPs, defend key places (aka die), do not retreat etc. etc.

< Message edited by TulliusDetritus -- 9/29/2012 4:00:06 PM >


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RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch" - 9/29/2012 4:20:38 PM   
janh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
5. Historical OOB and replacements in 1941. From what V. D. Sokolovski says in his book at least 150 rifle divisions and dozens of rifle brigades are absent in the first vital 6 months of the war... can you imagine that? Roughly 200 more counters?


This is a weired thing you brought up with that a while ago. Like so many things, also the OOBs are well researched in WitE I find. And just as with many other things, if there are discprepancies, the devs either did it on purporse and with a good rationale, or the resources any one refers to are all but unambiguous.

Unfortunately I know too little about that side of things. How many of these counters would be filled out units, or say 30% ToE counters? How many would be pure training cadres, which in case of the German (Ersatzheer etc.) are not depicted and of importance for the fighting part of the game itself? How many were mere shells, how many saw combat? Would it translate in a larger manpower modifier, a larger starting manpower pool, or cheaper "division rebuilt" cost?

(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
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RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch" - 9/29/2012 5:25:31 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: janh

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
5. Historical OOB and replacements in 1941. From what V. D. Sokolovski says in his book at least 150 rifle divisions and dozens of rifle brigades are absent in the first vital 6 months of the war... can you imagine that? Roughly 200 more counters?


This is a weired thing you brought up with that a while ago. Like so many things, also the OOBs are well researched in WitE I find. And just as with many other things, if there are discprepancies, the devs either did it on purporse and with a good rationale, or the resources any one refers to are all but unambiguous.

Unfortunately I know too little about that side of things. How many of these counters would be filled out units, or say 30% ToE counters? How many would be pure training cadres, which in case of the German (Ersatzheer etc.) are not depicted and of importance for the fighting part of the game itself? How many were mere shells, how many saw combat? Would it translate in a larger manpower modifier, a larger starting manpower pool, or cheaper "division rebuilt" cost?


Well, as I have said it's what Sokolovski (Marshall of the soviet Union) says.

He clearly says that between the 22 june and 1 december (1941) "150 Rifle Divisions and 44 Rifle Brigades were sent to the front". All these units were reserves. I guess the Stavka white armies we see on the first turn: 16, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 and 24 armies (if I remember correctly) have to be part of these reserves in fact: but they only make grosso modo 35 divisions...

Then he adds that these reserves sent to the front were only the "52% of the reserve divisions and 44% of the reserve brigades". He is not talking about an amorphous mass, he talks about divisions and brigades. Therefore Stavka is still keeping as reserves (by the 1 december) the 48% of the rifle divisions (almost 150 rifle divisions) and the 56% of the brigades (above 50)...

It's already been mentioned: the current replacement rates in no way can simulate the real Red Army historical losses

EDIT: what Tarhunnas didn't have is precisely these extra reserves kept by Stavka (by the 1 december that is). This was obvious: he ran out of counters, taking, let's not forget it, more or less historical losses.

< Message edited by TulliusDetritus -- 9/29/2012 5:30:35 PM >


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RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch" - 9/29/2012 5:55:02 PM   
mevstedt

 

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I believe (assumption though) that part of the reason why soviet replacements are lower than historical as well as any lack of units is because the developers didn't want the soviet army to end up in an ahistorically strong position based on hindsight as most players will avoid the initial soviet pitfalls and would then end up in a better position than historically. This is somewhat odd though as the german army ends up in better shape (in part due to the same hindsight) by the start of the blizzard.

Also, I assume that since the soviet player can build divisions and brigades at his own discretion the choice was to not include every reserve unit. That is just speculation however, as I am unaware of how accurate the russian OOB is in the grand campaign(s).

(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
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RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch" - 9/29/2012 6:25:51 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mevstedt
Also, I assume that since the soviet player can build divisions and brigades at his own discretion the choice was to not include every reserve unit. That is just speculation however, as I am unaware of how accurate the russian OOB is in the grand campaign(s).


Impossible You have to pay 20 APs for every Rifle Division you create (during the vital 6 first months). And why should you pay when they were already available and for free? OK, destroyed rifle divisions will be rebuilt. This doesn't resolve the problem though.. as Tarhunnas didn't have these circa 200 counters in time, when he was literally running out of counters.

I don't know if this will be fixed, but it would help a lot (along with more replacements of course)... fighting forward, taking historical losses... The lousy morale and experience + command penalties of the Red Army units should make sure the Germans advance the same like the knife in the butter... but taking losses in the process...

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RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch" - 9/29/2012 6:41:13 PM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

5. Historical OOB and replacements in 1941. From what V. D. Sokolovski says in his book at least 150 rifle divisions and dozens of rifle brigades are absent in the first vital 6 months of the war... can you imagine that? Roughly 200 more counters? They are lacking ergo defending like a stubborn mule (as the Red Army did) makes no sense. In fact it's a suicide.

edit: in case of doubt, ask Tarhunnas what he thought after fighting like the Red Army did, just to discover there was *nothing* left behind... And that's where these real life reserves I am mentioning are the KEY...

edit 2: and needless to say, as long as this is not fixed stubborn fights are totally out of the question: VPs, defend key places (aka die), do not retreat etc. etc.



Let's not forget the 10 engineering armies. The 10 Reserve Armies. All the German units that *do not* leave as they did in reality.

But the dev/design team doesn't have the time to do much more than bug fixes. Any large changes, (like the Lvov thing), would have to wait for WiTE 2. At least if IIRC.)

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 9/29/2012 7:12:37 PM >

(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
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RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch" - 9/29/2012 7:09:12 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

5. Historical OOB and replacements in 1941. From what V. D. Sokolovski says in his book at least 150 rifle divisions and dozens of rifle brigades are absent in the first vital 6 months of the war... can you imagine that? Roughly 200 more counters? They are lacking ergo defending like a stubborn mule (as the Red Army did) makes no sense. In fact it's a suicide.

edit: in case of doubt, ask Tarhunnas what he thought after fighting like the Red Army did, just to discover there was *nothing* left behind... And that's where these real life reserves I am mentioning are the KEY...

edit 2: and needless to say, as long as this is not fixed stubborn fights are totally out of the question: VPs, defend key places (aka die), do not retreat etc. etc.



Yet's not forget the 10 engineering armies. The 10 Reserve Armies. All the German units that *do not* leave as they did in reality.


Yep, the 10 Sapper Armies created by stavka to prepare defensive lines Disbanded in 1943, but until that date: dig dig dig... or die!

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RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch" - 9/29/2012 8:31:50 PM   
Marquo


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"You have to pay 20 APs for every Rifle Division you create (during the vital 6 first months). And why should you pay when they were already available and for free?"


This is the cost of activating them; calling up the reservists and then railing them to front; that is what the APs are for.

Marquo

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RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch" - 9/29/2012 10:46:07 PM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

quote:

ORIGINAL: mevstedt
Also, I assume that since the soviet player can build divisions and brigades at his own discretion the choice was to not include every reserve unit. That is just speculation however, as I am unaware of how accurate the russian OOB is in the grand campaign(s).


Impossible You have to pay 20 APs for every Rifle Division you create (during the vital 6 first months). And why should you pay when they were already available and for free? OK, destroyed rifle divisions will be rebuilt. This doesn't resolve the problem though.. as Tarhunnas didn't have these circa 200 counters in time, when he was literally running out of counters.

I don't know if this will be fixed, but it would help a lot (along with more replacements of course)... fighting forward, taking historical losses... The lousy morale and experience + command penalties of the Red Army units should make sure the Germans advance the same like the knife in the butter... but taking losses in the process...


German loses were very very low considering how many millions of russian troops they pocketed. The CV's would have to be lowered to reflex how horrible the russians were during 41 and 42. The German still kicked them around like a usless dog in early 42, dispite 100" of divisions.

The facts are russian loses during 42 nd 43 were higher then 41. Basicly mindless Orcs attacking using WW1 tactics.

Its is truely amazing how the GHC with 1/4 the troops(The SHC had better equipement) simply kicked the Red army around like a rag doll. 1943 and 44 Russian loses were staggering and they had much better equipment and far more of everything.




< Message edited by Pelton -- 9/29/2012 11:15:51 PM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 14
RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch" - 9/29/2012 10:51:58 PM   
Speedy

 

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Too harsh Pelton. You do realise these are people you're talking about and hypothetically some of them could even be reading this!

Sure we know the errors and the brutality and the relative skill of certain sides and tactics etc. Try to at least explain things in a civil manner

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RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch" - 9/29/2012 11:16:07 PM   
Pelton

 

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There that should be better


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Speedy)
Post #: 16
RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch" - 9/29/2012 11:31:19 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
German loses were very very low considering how many millions of russian troops they pocketed. The CV's would have to be lowered to reflex how horrible the russians were during 41 and 42. The German still kicked them around like a usless dog in early 42, dispite 100" of divisions.


Well, that's another issue. Suffice to say that the 900.000 losses they inflicted to the Wehrmacht before the General Winter had arrived made the whole difference... as the Germans were forced to launch a limited offensive on next year (which in plain English means they could not finish an enemy who was supposed to be dead meat). Not too bad when you only think about surviving...

I agree with your 1., 2., 3. and 4. issues by the way... as long as point 5. is part of the deal though

_____________________________

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RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch" - 9/29/2012 11:41:34 PM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
German loses were very very low considering how many millions of russian troops they pocketed. The CV's would have to be lowered to reflex how horrible the russians were during 41 and 42. The German still kicked them around like a usless dog in early 42, dispite 100" of divisions.


Well, that's another issue. Suffice to say that the 900.000 losses they inflicted to the Wehrmacht before the General Winter had arrived made the whole difference... as the Germans were forced to launch a limited offensive on next year (which in plain English means they could not finish an enemy who was supposed to be dead meat). Not too bad when you only think about surviving...

I agree with your 1., 2., 3. and 4. issues by the way... as long as point 5. is part of the deal though



I would think we would be looking for game balance not to make sure your side has the I win button all the time.

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 18
RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch" - 9/29/2012 11:52:04 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
I would think we would be looking for game balance not to make sure your side has the I win button all the time.


You got it wrong. This is about having what was available in the real thing... And then everyone will be happy: fighting like stubborn mules will finally be possible (it will erode the Wehrmacht, inflict losses that they can't afford to finish the bear). Millions of prisoners. 6 million casualties (or was it 7) by the end of the year 1941.

Don't you have all the axis units that fought in the real thing? I want exactly the same. Nothing less. Nothing more. It's supposed to be the Great Patriotic War or Eastern Front, as you prefer

_____________________________

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RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch" - 9/29/2012 11:58:50 PM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
I would think we would be looking for game balance not to make sure your side has the I win button all the time.


You got it wrong. This is about having what was available in the real thing... And then everyone will be happy: fighting like stubborn mules will finally be possible (it will erode the Wehrmacht, inflict losses that they can't afford to finish the bear). Millions of prisoners. 6 million casualties (or was it 7) by the end of the year 1941.

Don't you have all the axis units that fought in the real thing? I want exactly the same. Nothing less. Nothing more. It's supposed to be the Great Patriotic War or Eastern Front, as you prefer


Sure I do, but you have to have the combat ratio reflex historical loses, the leadership #'s of SHC would have to be lowered to 1 in 90% of the army to reflex their understanding of military tactics which was zero. Most of the real generals were shot, leaving a bunch of Obama's to be generals.
Here gun
run west
shot poeple
You come back we shot your family.
OK?
If we lose battle it was Bush's fault

< Message edited by Pelton -- 9/30/2012 12:01:29 AM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 20
RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch" - 9/30/2012 1:07:41 AM   
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quote:



Sure I do, but you have to have the combat ratio reflex historical loses, the leadership #'s of SHC would have to be lowered to 1 in 90% of the army to reflex their understanding of military tactics which was zero. Most of the real generals were shot, leaving a bunch of Obama's to be generals.
Here gun
run west
shot poeple
You come back we shot your family.
OK?
If we lose battle it was Bush's fault



(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 21
RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch" - 9/30/2012 2:08:45 AM   
MechFO

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

5. Historical OOB and replacements in 1941. From what V. D. Sokolovski says in his book at least 150 rifle divisions and dozens of rifle brigades are absent in the first vital 6 months of the war... can you imagine that? Roughly 200 more counters? They are lacking ergo defending like a stubborn mule (as the Red Army did) makes no sense. In fact it's a suicide.

edit: in case of doubt, ask Tarhunnas what he thought after fighting like the Red Army did, just to discover there was *nothing* left behind... And that's where these real life reserves I am mentioning are the KEY...

edit 2: and needless to say, as long as this is not fixed stubborn fights are totally out of the question: VPs, defend key places (aka die), do not retreat etc. etc.


The counter discussion shows up periodically. Counter number quoting is useless without knowing at what strength level those divisions and reserves were. Throughout the war, but especially in 41-early 42, these varied hugely for any one point in time, exacerbated by the fact that Soviets in general rather created new units instead of reinforcing existing ones to "correct" TOE strength. It's directly comparable to how paper names often bore little relation to actual strength for late war Germany (for many of the same reasons as well). The only way is to try to get the aggregate numbers of men and guns correct.

Same for the end game counter discussion. Sure, counter wise the Soviets never get close to historical numbers, but unit TOE% are of an order of magnitude higher as well, due to the way production is handled in the game with unit creation being the (artificial) limiting factor.

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RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch" - 9/30/2012 2:25:32 PM   
Iota

 

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first winter rules

I would like to try out something like this:

Axis units located in a Fortified Zone can mitigate the first winter rules.

- Fortified Zone with Fort Level 1 - 0% reduction
- Fortified Zone with Fort Level 2 - 50% reduction (for one unit + Fortified Zone)
- Fortified Zone with Fort Level 3 - 100% reduction (for two units + Fortified Zone)


This should include:
- Combat Value Modifications
- Ground Element Damage and Disruption
- Unit Morale Reduction

This should not include:
- Supply Modifier

< Message edited by Iota -- 9/30/2012 2:26:06 PM >

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Post #: 23
RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch" - 9/30/2012 2:53:05 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MechFO


quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

5. Historical OOB and replacements in 1941. From what V. D. Sokolovski says in his book at least 150 rifle divisions and dozens of rifle brigades are absent in the first vital 6 months of the war... can you imagine that? Roughly 200 more counters? They are lacking ergo defending like a stubborn mule (as the Red Army did) makes no sense. In fact it's a suicide.

edit: in case of doubt, ask Tarhunnas what he thought after fighting like the Red Army did, just to discover there was *nothing* left behind... And that's where these real life reserves I am mentioning are the KEY...

edit 2: and needless to say, as long as this is not fixed stubborn fights are totally out of the question: VPs, defend key places (aka die), do not retreat etc. etc.


The counter discussion shows up periodically. Counter number quoting is useless without knowing at what strength level those divisions and reserves were. Throughout the war, but especially in 41-early 42, these varied hugely for any one point in time, exacerbated by the fact that Soviets in general rather created new units instead of reinforcing existing ones to "correct" TOE strength. It's directly comparable to how paper names often bore little relation to actual strength for late war Germany (for many of the same reasons as well). The only way is to try to get the aggregate numbers of men and guns correct.

Same for the end game counter discussion. Sure, counter wise the Soviets never get close to historical numbers, but unit TOE% are of an order of magnitude higher as well, due to the way production is handled in the game with unit creation being the (artificial) limiting factor.


You only need to do 2 + 2 You have massive, catastrophic Soviet losses in the first 6 months of the war. And despite all of this the front was more or less stabilized by the end of the year. In game terms this means a) you have lost lots of counters (the losses) and b) the strategic reserves at your disposal kept forming a rather continous line aka the COUNTERS absent in the game.

In the game we only have a). No b).

And this was only possible because stavka HAD Strategic Reserves. I have mentioned Sokolovski but you've decided the guy is lying. Oh well... If I were you I'd try to do 2 + 2... you would necessarily discover there were er... huge reserves that allowed the stavka to stabilize the situation... Or maybe you think by the end of the year the Germans were only facing thin air (no counters, already destroyed in massive pockets, fights)...

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(in reply to MechFO)
Post #: 24
RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch" - 9/30/2012 4:24:16 PM   
MechFO

 

Posts: 274
Joined: 6/1/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus


quote:

ORIGINAL: MechFO


quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

5. Historical OOB and replacements in 1941. From what V. D. Sokolovski says in his book at least 150 rifle divisions and dozens of rifle brigades are absent in the first vital 6 months of the war... can you imagine that? Roughly 200 more counters? They are lacking ergo defending like a stubborn mule (as the Red Army did) makes no sense. In fact it's a suicide.

edit: in case of doubt, ask Tarhunnas what he thought after fighting like the Red Army did, just to discover there was *nothing* left behind... And that's where these real life reserves I am mentioning are the KEY...

edit 2: and needless to say, as long as this is not fixed stubborn fights are totally out of the question: VPs, defend key places (aka die), do not retreat etc. etc.


The counter discussion shows up periodically. Counter number quoting is useless without knowing at what strength level those divisions and reserves were. Throughout the war, but especially in 41-early 42, these varied hugely for any one point in time, exacerbated by the fact that Soviets in general rather created new units instead of reinforcing existing ones to "correct" TOE strength. It's directly comparable to how paper names often bore little relation to actual strength for late war Germany (for many of the same reasons as well). The only way is to try to get the aggregate numbers of men and guns correct.

Same for the end game counter discussion. Sure, counter wise the Soviets never get close to historical numbers, but unit TOE% are of an order of magnitude higher as well, due to the way production is handled in the game with unit creation being the (artificial) limiting factor.


You only need to do 2 + 2 You have massive, catastrophic Soviet losses in the first 6 months of the war. And despite all of this the front was more or less stabilized by the end of the year. In game terms this means a) you have lost lots of counters (the losses) and b) the strategic reserves at your disposal kept forming a rather continous line aka the COUNTERS absent in the game.

In the game we only have a). No b).


Or c) Real World Germany lacked the ability to teleport supplies. A continuous frontline isn't the prerequisite of a stable front, that would be the inability to conduct offensive action. By the end of the year, distance x weather x capacity limitations had induced this state for the German side.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
And this was only possible because stavka HAD Strategic Reserves. I have mentioned Sokolovski but you've decided the guy is lying. Oh well... If I were you I'd try to do 2 + 2... you would necessarily discover there were er... huge reserves that allowed the stavka to stabilize the situation... Or maybe you think by the end of the year the Germans were only facing thin air (no counters, already destroyed in massive pockets, fights)...


The advantage of the in game production system for the Soviets is that the aggregate numbers are fairly easy? to check. Total number of men at start and what was inducted in the period covered are the only real metrics needed to get a "correct" end result. "Correct" Counter numbers plus which units were real or only existed on paper etc. can all be abstracted away in this system.

A quick check, 150 x 5000 (very rough 50%TOE) corresponds to at least .75 Million men missing somewhere in that half year period. While I don't have the ability to hunt down primary sources, I seriously doubt there's such a big hole in the manpower generator. So either those units were ghosts, or the people inside are already accounted for in other units (by higher than "correct" TOE).

(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 25
RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch" - 9/30/2012 5:02:06 PM   
Klydon


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Status: offline
Actually, there have been patches to lower the Russian manpower multiplier. I am guessing that originally, it may have come pretty close to being accurate for the first 6 months, but with the overall patches, this has slipped and perhaps that explains the 750k men discrepancy that MechFO mentions.

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Post #: 26
RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch" - 9/30/2012 5:20:30 PM   
Jo van der Pluym


Posts: 479
Joined: 10/28/2000
From: Netherlands
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

5. Historical OOB and replacements in 1941.


I do miss the following units.
Axis
The 800 Z.Bv. Branderburger Regiment (SF)
The Hungarian Airborne Bn
The SS Jagdverbande
The 500 SS Falschirmjäger Bn

Soviet
250 Airlanding Regiment (SF/Commando's) - Raised from 250 Rifle Regiment end 1941. The first mission was on 4 January 1942.

NKVD OMSBON Independent Special Purpose Motorized Rifle Brigade (exist out 2 regiments)- Inserted from Augustus 1941 detachements behind enemy lines for raids or leading Partisan units

The special 1 to 5 omvdbr raised end 1941.
The 1 omvdbr raised in Moscow Military District
The 2 and 3 omvdbr raised in Wolga Military District
The 4 omvdbr raised in North Caucaus Military District
The 5 omvdbr raised in Stalingrad Military District

In 1945 had some armies a Special Purpose Bn

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(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 27
RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch" - 9/30/2012 5:24:43 PM   
TulliusDetritus


Posts: 4402
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: Back to Reality :(
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MechFO
A quick check, 150 x 5000 (very rough 50%TOE) corresponds to at least .75 Million men missing somewhere in that half year period. While I don't have the ability to hunt down primary sources, I seriously doubt there's such a big hole in the manpower generator. So either those units were ghosts, or the people inside are already accounted for in other units (by higher than "correct" TOE).


To Tarhunnas they were indeed ghosts (a more than competent player who tried to emulate the Red Army), as they were nowhere to be found, only the emptiness behind his back. And yet in the real thing Stavka was sending counters to stabilize the front. In the game no counter = no men = you are forced to siphon the manpower to limited counters.

I understand (as mevstedt says) it's sort of abstracted. And in the end it may work.
1) the Germans take (on average) historical losses by the end of 1941 (800k/900k)
2) the Red Army does NOT. If it did there would not be counters left in the first place
3) it also has been said the German manpower has been inflated
4) the Germans survive the winter and can strike in 1942

Ok. But if you force the Red Army to engage in a historical fashion the equation simply crumbles.

Counters, where are you?

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Post #: 28
RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch" - 9/30/2012 10:57:36 PM   
Von Hindenburg

 

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6) Adjust the upgrading routine of the AI's airforce.

After the end of my last GC in the fall of '43, I am able to look at Soviet Units (thanks for this fix). Most of the airplanes in the fighter/fighter/bomber units are of the I-15/I-16 types despite the fact that the reserves are depleted of them. There are probably on average 10 planes per max 32 unit. In the meantime, 1000s of newer, more modern, greatly superior frames sit in pools that barely possess any active units using them.

(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 29
RE: Things I would like to see in "the patch" - 10/1/2012 1:22:49 AM   
carlkay58

 

Posts: 2250
Joined: 7/25/2010
Status: offline
The developers probably hit the wall with the Soviet historical manpower and units because all of the playtests had the Soviets with way too many men and units left due to the lack of pockets after turn 1. If you take away just the Kiev pocket, you have over 700K less Soviet casualties. Then you notice very few Axis players doing anything similar to Operation Typhoon during the frost/snow turns between the mud and the blizzards - that adds another 500K to the historical losses that the Soviets rarely have to worry about.

How do you duplicate this in a game without 'idiot' rules? That is a difficult proposition. You can try to do things through victory points or other mechanics - but you have to be very imaginative about the whole thing. The current VP engine in the game is very basic and not up to the complications that would be necessary to deal with the incentives.

What I would like to see done is simple. Revamp the supply rules to be more restrictive. The Axis should NOT be having a surplus of fuel every turn. I don't know where in the formulas the problems are - and it would probably be extremely difficult to trace them all down - but I think there have been some wrong assumptions or overlooked factors in the entire supply engine because it does not work properly. If it did work properly, then the lack of supply would give the Soviets the edge during the 41/42 winter with only slight nerfing of Axis abilities. There should be some nerfing of the Axis - probably through attrition factors - since historically they did lose a large amount of men and equipment to the bitter cold in 41/42 that they did not lose in the later winters. But the additional attrition and poor supply situation should be sufficient penalties rather than have some additional rule / penalty enacted by the game engine.

This is important for WitW. If the supply engine is not improved for that game, the Allies will have a cake walk over the Axis. The major obstacle for the Allies is the limitations of supply - everything from port capacity to rail and truck transports had to be calculated very carefully for the Allies to be successful. The supply situation drove the entire Allied strategy in the West - from the initial reasoning behind the Normandy site to the diversion to southern France and Antwerp to improve port capacities and the creation of the Red Ball Express - which utilized almost as many men and vehicles as the front line units did. The current WitE supply engine will not do that.

(in reply to Von Hindenburg)
Post #: 30
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