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Metaphor – DivePac(Ger) vs Jim D Burns(Sov), (No Jim)

 
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Metaphor – DivePac(Ger) vs Jim D Burns(Sov), (No Jim) - 9/22/2012 11:54:19 PM   
DivePac88


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AAR's are a lot of fun to read, and it is how I really learned to play these extremely complicated games (WitP, and WitE). I've done a couple for my WitP and AE Pbem's, and they normally get a lot of advice and comments, which has sometimes saved me from embarrassing catastrophes.

Anyhow, I'm going to write this one on my Pbem as the Axis, against a veteran WitP and AE player; Jim D Burns. I’ve never played Jim in WitP, but have read his Pbem AAR’s, and know from them that he is a very competent player. I have also noticed him reading the WitE AAR section a lot of late, which I find extremely worrying.

Now even though I am a veteran WitP player, my wargaming routs come from the Eastern Front. For starting as a 10-year old boy, I was taught to play the Eastern campaign operationally by my Grandfather. As there were no board games available in Australia and New Zealand in 1968, we played on a homemade table-top construction, with an imported rule book (dog eared).

We are playing the stock 1941-45 campaign, with the current 1.06.14 Beta patch. We are using the Random Weather, Full FOW, and the Unlocked HQ settings. While we aren’t playing with any written House Rules, we did agree not to use any gamey tactics (e.g. chaining HQ build up).

I am a firm believer that WitE is winnable as the Axis, in the context of the victory conditions. Even against a very competent Soviet player, contrary to what some folks will have you believe, this game’s outcome is open-ended. I think that it is all about the appropriate strategies, to achieve realistic objectives. You have to be aware that real life strategy and game strategy is not necessarily the same thing, that the same definition for one will not be adequate for the other.

High Safari.



< Message edited by DivePac88 -- 9/23/2012 7:24:10 AM >


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When you see the Southern Cross, For the first time
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RE: Metaphor – DivePac(Ger) vs Jim D Burns(Sov), (No Jim) - 9/23/2012 12:35:19 AM   
Dan Nichols


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I'm reading both AARs and taking notes.

(in reply to DivePac88)
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Metaphor – DivePac(Ger) vs Jim D Burns(Sov), (No Jim) - 9/23/2012 1:55:45 AM   
DivePac88


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I have my long-term operational plan already worked out, as I consider that a major historic failure of the Germans, in that they didn’t have any long-term operational planning for the East. But I haven’t got the time or room now to detail the full plan, so I will give you a brief outline of my basic 1941 strategy.

There are 3 main tools or concepts that I will use to achieve victory in this game, they are;

Grand strategy

Operational planning

Doctrine

These concepts lead to the Tactical manoeuvrings, and on a larger scale the Operational manoeuvrings.

The above concepts sometimes appear under slightly different names. There is also some degree of overlap between them. But the first principles of these concepts are really just strategy and tactics under a different name. So grand strategy is strategy, while the other two terms are really tactics; but the difference between the two is the scale of tactical implementation.

Make sense, maybe not, as I still have some problem following these concepts. But I am convinced that if one is disciplined and uses these tools, victory is possible. That Also the simple doctrines of restricting the enemy supply of Manpower, Recourses, PP’s, and the time to build these items up to what he needs.

So here goes starting with AGN; where the main objectives for 1941 are the capture of the city of Leningrad and the Valdai Hills region. For these tasks AGN will be receiving the bulk of the Reinforcement Infantry Divisions, and the future use of 2 Panzer Groups.

The basic objectives for AGC; is the capture of the cities of Smolensk and Velikie Luki, and securing sufficient space in front of these objectives, for a vigorous mobile defence when winter comes. There will also be the possibility of my launching a limited autumn offensive, for the sole purpose destroying Soviet reserves.

Lastly the objectives in AGS; is the capture of City of Kiev, and the region of great Dnepr River bent, south of Kiev to the Black Sea. Again also securing sufficient space in front of these objectives, for a mobile defense thought-out the excepted Soviet winter offensives. Also there could be a limited autumn offensive to secure a bridgehead into the Crimea.


< Message edited by DivePac88 -- 9/23/2012 11:53:45 PM >


_____________________________


When you see the Southern Cross, For the first time
You understand now, Why you came this way

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Metaphor – DivePac(Ger) vs Jim D Burns(Sov), (No Jim) - 9/23/2012 2:05:20 AM   
DivePac88


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Situation Report, for Army Group North, at end of my turn 2.

In the northern area, Stavka (Jim); has not made a stand on the Daugava River, but is pulling back to what appears to be a line Tallinn-Pskov-Idriza. I am happy with my progress here so far, and it is now a matter of getting my infantry divisions up to support my Panzer corps. But I doubt that my panzer/motorized divisions, will be able to take Pskov without infantry support.




Attached Ground losses to date.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by DivePac88 -- 9/23/2012 3:28:49 AM >


_____________________________


When you see the Southern Cross, For the first time
You understand now, Why you came this way

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Post #: 4
RE: Metaphor – DivePac(Ger) vs Jim D Burns(Sov), (No Jim) - 9/23/2012 2:06:24 AM   
DivePac88


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Situation Report, for Army Group Center, at end of my turn 2.

In the central area, Minsk had been evacuated by the enemy and was easily occupied. I also have managed to establish a good bridgehead across the River Berezina at Borisov, which extends to Krupki. But I did encounter some resistance between Minsk and Borisov, with units stationed in rough ground south of the road. I was not as fortunate to the south at Bobruisk, where the resistance was a lot stiffer, with enemy units also astride of the roads.




Attached Air losses to date.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by DivePac88 -- 9/23/2012 7:27:10 AM >


_____________________________


When you see the Southern Cross, For the first time
You understand now, Why you came this way

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Post #: 5
RE: Metaphor – DivePac(Ger) vs Jim D Burns(Sov), (No Jim) - 9/23/2012 2:09:17 AM   
DivePac88


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Situation Report, for Army Group South at end of my turn 2.

In the southern area, things predictably did not go exactly as planned, but I suppose could have been worse. I had transferred the 46th panzer corps to AGS from AGC, and used it to take Kovel and isolate some Soviet units to the south around Vladimir-Volynski. But Stavka was able to in turn isolate the 46th panzer corps, I was then able to free-up with infantry divisions. The 47th and 14th panzer corps then pushed east and south taking Rovno, but were unable to move further, because of the lack of fuel. The plan is to establish a bridgehead across the River Goryn next, but I may need an infantry corps for this task.

In the south I managed to take Lvov, Tarnopol, and push south to the Rumanian Boarder with my panzer divisions, cutting rail links into the Lvov pocket. Unfortunately I was only able to screen the area between Tarnopol and south to the River Dnestr with 1 panzer division broken down into 3 regimental battle-groups, which Soviets in turn were easily able to brake though. But the enemy was unable to isolate the area around Tarnopol, where I had spend some fuel in making my corridor (ZOC) wider. I was able to reestablish the the Lvov pocket in turn, but used all my available fuel supply in doing so, so there was no further advance to the east here. I think I will have to wait for my infantry divisions here also, to be able to force a bridgehead across the River Zbruch.





Attached unit losses to date.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by DivePac88 -- 9/23/2012 10:43:14 AM >


_____________________________


When you see the Southern Cross, For the first time
You understand now, Why you came this way

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Post #: 6
RE: Metaphor – DivePac(Ger) vs Jim D Burns(Sov), (No Jim) - 9/23/2012 10:36:30 PM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DivePac88



So here goes starting with AGN; where the main objectives for 1941 are the capture of the city of Leningrad and the Valdai Hills region. For these tasks AGN will be receiving the bulk of the Reinforcement Infantry Divisions, and the future use of 2 Panzer Groups.

The basic objectives for AGC; is the capture of the cities of Smolensk and Velikie Luki, and securing sufficient space in front of these objectives, for a vigorous mobile defence when winter comes. There will also be the possibility of my launching a limited autumn offensive, for the sole purpose destroying Soviet reserves.

Lastly the objectives in AGC; is the capture of City of Kiev, and the region of great Dnepr River bent, south of Kiev to the Black Sea. Again also securing sufficient space in front of these objectives, for a mobile defense thought-out the excepted Soviet winter offensives. Also there could be a limited autumn offensive to secure a bridgehead into the Crimea.



I have to say if don't do set and achieve rather more ambitious objectives you will be frozen toast in the 1st winter.You need to take Moscow or Donbass cities as a minimum beyond your objectives. More accurately you need to destroy Russian army so that you can take these places, and also to ensure weak blizzard offensive.

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(in reply to DivePac88)
Post #: 7
RE: Metaphor – DivePac(Ger) vs Jim D Burns(Sov), (No Jim) - 9/24/2012 8:52:07 AM   
DivePac88


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

I have to say if don't do set and achieve rather more ambitious objectives you will be frozen toast in the 1st winter.You need to take Moscow or Donbass cities as a minimum beyond your objectives. More accurately you need to destroy Russian army so that you can take these places, and also to ensure weak blizzard offensive.


I partly agree with you Sillyflower, and fully intend to take the Don Bend in 1941. But I doubt I can stay there when the Russian winter offensive comes, and my strategy is to use this area for a fluid mobile defense. Also it is my intention to fight large encirclement battles in 1941 when ever I can, as one of my fundamental doctrines is the attrition of the Soviet Army.

But I consider the capture of Moscow in 1941 to be a dangerous overexertion for AGC for 2 reasons;

1# With my plan of using the 2 panzer groups of AGC for operations in AGN's area in 1941, for the capture of Leningrad, etc. That would then mean that any operation against Moscow, would be starting late in the season.

2# Any move on Moscow would involve the creation of a large salient in AGC's area, which would become a liability when the Soviet winter offensive begins. This salient would also not give me the room for maneuver, with my strategy of mobile defense.

My intention is to take Moscow in my spring offensive of 1942, and would give me the ability of launching from both the Smolensk and Valdai Hills areas, therefore creating a very large pocket.


_____________________________


When you see the Southern Cross, For the first time
You understand now, Why you came this way

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Post #: 8
RE: Metaphor – DivePac(Ger) vs Jim D Burns(Sov), (No Jim) - 9/24/2012 10:04:10 AM   
Apollo11


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Hi all,

Great Des - I will be reading this AAR!


Leo "Apollo11"

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Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to DivePac88)
Post #: 9
RE: Metaphor – DivePac(Ger) vs Jim D Burns(Sov), (No Jim) - 9/24/2012 1:45:54 PM   
rrbill

 

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Will enjoy reading the two complementary threads; especially appreciate your strategic plan.

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RE: Metaphor – DivePac(Ger) vs Jim D Burns(Sov), (No Jim) - 9/24/2012 1:49:46 PM   
mevstedt

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DivePac88

But I consider the capture of Moscow in 1941 to be a dangerous overexertion for AGC for 2 reasons;

1# With my plan of using the 2 panzer groups of AGC for operations in AGN's area in 1941, for the capture of Leningrad, etc. That would then mean that any operation against Moscow, would be starting late in the season.

2# Any move on Moscow would involve the creation of a large salient in AGC's area, which would become a liability when the Soviet winter offensive begins. This salient would also not give me the room for maneuver, with my strategy of mobile defense.

My intention is to take Moscow in my spring offensive of 1942, and would give me the ability of launching from both the Smolensk and Valdai Hills areas, therefore creating a very large pocket.



I would suggest atleast leaving 1 panzer corps cutting across the landbridge between Vitebsk/Smolensk and aiming towards the Rzhev/Vyazma line. If you withdraw everything from AGC and make it too obvious that you aren't at all interested in pushing towards Moscow then your opponent is likely to take notice and just send all his reinforcements to the Leningrad area, making your objective there that much harder.

(in reply to DivePac88)
Post #: 11
RE: Metaphor – DivePac(Ger) vs Jim D Burns(Sov), (No Jim) - 9/25/2012 12:01:35 AM   
Pelton

 

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GHC infantry morale is everything.

As GHC you can only take what you are given.

If SHC wants to hold Moscow, they will.

If SHC wants to hold Leningrad it is very likely they will(75%) and 100% vs a handfull of guys that know how.

If SHC thinks they can hold Tula south they are on drugs.

If your fighting and average Joe 6 pack SHC player you will take Leningrad.

Then the question is Does the SHC player know how to fight during the Blizzard?

If he can then you better retreat 2 hexes a turn min, other wise you recieve a morale beat down from which you will never recover and lose the game in late 44.

As GHC you must farm morale during summer of 41, take what your given as far as pockets go, then retreat 2 hexes a turn during December. If the SHC doesnt seem to know what they are doing in December then you can stand and fight ( retreating 1 hex in January) hold the line in February.

Vs the best of the best SHC players the blizzard is a total disaster even when you retreat 2 hexes a turn. TDV cleaned my clock with a 3.5 million man SHC army at the start of blizzard. VS other average joe SHC armys with OOB's of 5 million + its a cake walk.

So when guys post how big there armys are just totally ignore it. It means nothing in 90% of the cases.

As GHC focus on one thing, infantry morale.

I have wiped 8 million man SHC armys come June 42 and have been unable to move 5 million man SHC armys come June 42.

The only thing that was differant was GHC infantry morale and of course SHC over all morale.

If your infantry morale sucks come April of 42 your in deep **** and will not be able to recover infantry morale come summer.

Panzer morale will always be high and you will find even in late 44 you will have boat loads of tanks, but they will be usless if your infantry morale sucks.

Infantry Morale is KING of the battle field. #'s of troops mean little if their morale blows.

Even land means little to nothing as the lines break when GHC infantry morale blows not the # of men or squads.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 9/25/2012 12:08:19 AM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

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RE: Metaphor – DivePac(Ger) vs Jim D Burns(Sov), (No Jim) - 9/26/2012 12:30:01 PM   
rrbill

 

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Hmm... would think that morale is the messenger that one's strategy and tactics are good. Don't think morale can overcome stupid. But, yes, morale has to influence tactical choices. Might need to bypass some conflicts that appear juicy opportunities.

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Metaphor – DivePac(Ger) vs Jim D Burns(Sov), (No Jim) - 9/27/2012 7:36:10 AM   
DivePac88


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Situation Report for Army Group North, July 3 1941.

The last Soviet Unit west of the River Daugava, a NKVD regiment. Was forced to surrender by the Polizei SS division, just south of Dundaga. Meanwhile the most of the 18th army is now across the River Daugava, and is closing up with the enemy.

3x corps of the 18th army will move up on the area around Pskov, while 2x more corps are to move up the west side of Lake Peipus. Air recon has spotted the Soviets forming a defense line on the eastern bank of the River Narva, but no enemy units have been spotted at Tallinn. I would have thought that Stavka would try and hold Tallinn, so I must surmise that enemy units are still on route.

The 16th army is closing up on the enemy north east of Daugavpils, along the River Sinyaya and town of Stanislavovo. While the 4th panzer group has closed up to the west bank of the River Velikaya, opposite Pskov, and south to the town of Ostov. 4th panzer group has also managed to establish a 2x division bridgehead at the town Ostov, which I am confident can hold off any enemy counterattacks.





Attachment (1)

_____________________________


When you see the Southern Cross, For the first time
You understand now, Why you came this way

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Metaphor – DivePac(Ger) vs Jim D Burns(Sov), (No Jim) - 9/27/2012 7:36:45 AM   
DivePac88


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Situation Report for Army Group Centre, July 3 1941.

In the Central area the 2x infantry armies, the 9th and 4th are rapidly move east to support the 2x panzer groups. The Soviets have left a cavalry division south of the City of Minsk, just north of the town of Stutsk. I have not engaged this enemy division so far, and have bypassed it for now, for the attention of following units.

The 2nd army is now forming-up in the western Pripet Marshes, and in the next two weeks will advance rapidity east, to clear the Marshes. The 2nd army is to contain 4x corps of 13 divisions, and is to protect the southern flank of army group centre. It is also task with maintaining contact with army group south, and the capture of the city of Gomel.

The Soviets also moved a tank division to the town of Smolevichi, which we had cleared the week before, and is across the rail line running east to Borisov from Minsk. This tank division was routed, the 6th infantry division of the 11th corps, in a quick attack as the division moved east.

The 3rd panzer group advanced north east to the town of Lepel, from Borisov on the eastern bank of the River Berezina. But didn’t move to its division’s full potential, as I want some infantry divisions up to protect the groups left flank.

Meanwhile the 2nd Panzer group has taken a good bridgehead, on the eastern bank of the River Berezina River. I have 3x panzer and 1 motorized infantry divisions across the river, which will easily defeat any enemy counter attacks.





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by DivePac88 -- 9/27/2012 7:40:34 AM >


_____________________________


When you see the Southern Cross, For the first time
You understand now, Why you came this way

(in reply to rrbill)
Post #: 15
Metaphor – DivePac(Ger) vs Jim D Burns(Sov), (No Jim) - 9/27/2012 8:58:20 AM   
DivePac88


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Situation Report for Army Group Centre, July 3 1941.

The situation in the southern area is starting to improve somewhat, and I have closed the pocket again and move some infantry divisions south into the Tarnopol area. This I have been able to free up the 6th army now of the tasks of holding and reducing the Lvov pocket. This has meant that the 6th army has been able to push its division’s east and south to close-up on the new Soviet line.

The enemy had managed to cut-off the 46th panzer corps around the town of Rovno, but contact was easily re-established with the 14th panzer corps and some infantry divisions of the 6th army. I have in-turn managed to trap 2x Soviet rifle divisions, which were still in position west of Rovno.

But the good news in the Rovno area is that I have managed to establish a bridgehead on the eastern bank of the River Goryn, around the town of Stavuta. This bridgehead contains 1x panzer, 2 SS motorized infantry divisions, and a motorized infantry regiment, and should easily hold against ant counterattacks.

The area south of Tarnopol has now been stabilized, with the arrival of infantry divisions of the 6th and 11th armies. It has also been possible to widen the corridor to the Rumanian Boarder, and completely seal the pocket again. Meanwhile the 17th army, along with some Rumanian units has been successfully reducing the remaining trapped Soviet forces.

The 1st panzer group has managed to start a small breakout, east of Tarnopol in the gap between the Rivers Goryn and Zbruch. But unfortunately I was unable to exploit the breakthrough, and move on city of Proskurov because of the lack of fuel. The panzer divisions of the 4th panzer group have suffer heavy casualties in the last 2 weeks, and I have had to withdraw the 16th panzer for refit, as it was down to 6 running tanks only.





Attachment (1)

_____________________________


When you see the Southern Cross, For the first time
You understand now, Why you came this way

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Post #: 16
RE: Metaphor – DivePac(Ger) vs Jim D Burns(Sov), (No Jim) - 9/27/2012 9:09:37 AM   
DivePac88


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Infantry Morale is KING of the battle field. #'s of troops mean little if their morale blows.



I wholeheartedly agree with you sir, and it is very disconcerting to see with morale around 80 to suddenly sink to 65 after the start of the blizzard and the first Soviet attacks.

I have even had an infantry division with 100% TOE, 80 morale, and in a fort of 2. Suddenly drop 8x morale points, when not in contact with the enemy, at the start of the winter weather.


_____________________________


When you see the Southern Cross, For the first time
You understand now, Why you came this way

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 17
RE: Metaphor – DivePac(Ger) vs Jim D Burns(Sov), (No Jim) - 9/27/2012 1:19:03 PM   
janh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DivePac88
The panzer divisions of the 4th panzer group have suffer heavy casualties in the last 2 weeks, and I have had to withdraw the 16th panzer for refit, as it was down to 6 running tanks only.


Wow, that is few. Unusually few for turn 3. Bad dice rolls on repairs coupled with heavy combat losses?

(in reply to DivePac88)
Post #: 18
RE: Metaphor – DivePac(Ger) vs Jim D Burns(Sov), (No Jim) - 9/28/2012 6:26:42 AM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: janh

quote:

ORIGINAL: DivePac88
The panzer divisions of the 4th panzer group have suffer heavy casualties in the last 2 weeks, and I have had to withdraw the 16th panzer for refit, as it was down to 6 running tanks only.


Wow, that is few. Unusually few for turn 3. Bad dice rolls on repairs coupled with heavy combat losses?


right now the germans loss and amazing high number of tanks to just movement. This nerf was put into a patch to try and control german breakthroughs before 2by3 figured out how to stop supplies to german spearheads.

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to janh)
Post #: 19
Metaphor – DivePac(Ger) vs Jim D Burns(Sov), (No Jim) - 10/1/2012 8:07:47 AM   
DivePac88


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Summary for July 10, 1941.

Now I Know that Playing games like WitP and WitE in Pbem, as the Japanese or Axis is a form of self abuse. But I am starting to wonder if I am witnessing my 1941 campaign against Jim, turning into a slow train crash. Because this first operational phase is not unfolding in the way I had planned it, practically in the south. But I am also sure that the fault is not in my strategy, or the tactics I am using. Or that problem is in any way with the game mechanics, or some particular ‘nerf’ that the developers have introduced in the latest patches.

No… I think that the situation I find myself in, stems solely from my opponent strategy and tactics. Which I think are proving very effective in slowing my momentum and in some places stopping me dead. His use of single division and single corps, in local and limited spoiling attacks is simply superb to witness. Then now in turn 4 his front line withdrawal from areas where I have breached his line, and my infantry have arrived support is sole destroying.

So the question now is can I bet him, can I build my momentum up again, and can I form some more pockets. Yes I think I can, but it is going to mean a major rethink, and a change in my overall strategy. I have to go after his strategy, to use it against him, to find the weaknesses in his snipe and withdrawal tactics. Because I can still pick the time and place of my axes of advance, as have still have the innovative.

Army Group North.

The Infantry of the 18th and 16th armies are just about up with 4th panzer group this week (turn), and will complete closing up with the enemy in the next week (turn). While the 4th panzer group made a few attacks to clear its supply lines, it basically held position to build up its supply situation. The TOE of the Mobile divisions of still high, and with the railhead now at Riga should be fully supplied next week (turn).

Army Group Center.

The 3rd panzer group successfully captured Vitebsk, and has a panzer and a motorized division installed in the city. While the 9th army is just about up with the enemy, and is in position to protect the flanks of the 3rd panzer group. Also the mobile divisions of the 3rd panzer group are all above 90%, and their supply situation is good.

Meanwhile to the south the 2nd panzer group has advanced to the River Drut opposite Mogilev, and with the support of the 4th army, will force crossings next week. The 4th army is now up with the 2nd panzer group, and is position to support and protect its planks. Also here the TOE of the 2nd panzer group’s mobile divisions is still good, and they will be fully supplied for the next advance. Also to the south the 2nd army has now formed up, and is rapidly moving forward though the Marches.

Army Group South.

The situation in the south is not ideal, and the advances of the 4th panzer group toward the east this week were very limited. Also the mobile divisions of this panzer group have been badly knocked about, and their TOE’s are all very low. So for this week they are going to rest and recover some of their strength, and any advances will be carried out by the 6th army.

Meanwhile the remnants of the trapped Soviet units remaining in the Lvov pocket were mopped up by the 17th army, with the help of Rumanian mountain and mobile units. The 17th army along with the Rumanian’s will now close up on the enemy, slotting in between the 6th army to the north and the 11th army to the south. The 11th army has only launched some local attacks, to gain its start lines, and will begin its main advance next week.

End





Attachment (1)

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Post #: 20
RE: Metaphor – DivePac(Ger) vs Jim D Burns(Sov), (No Jim) - 10/1/2012 8:52:56 AM   
sillyflower


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Looks like Jim has you by the tail feathers.

You need to focus on narrow breakthroughs which will force a retreat. Mobile divs are there to manoeuver and the inf to do the heavy fighting. The best german players focus on logistics and how to use LW and HQBUs to get maximum petrol to mobile forces.

You won't get pockets worth anything unless thoe mobile forces get through hid defences. That is usually best done with the inf. blowing a bit of a hole 1st. With this level of progress Jim will be getting all his industry away. If you don't get pockets, you won't kill enough Russians and the blizzard will kill you.

You may want to study the AARs of Pelton and others as you can learn a lot from them.

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Post #: 21
RE: Metaphor – DivePac(Ger) vs Jim D Burns(Sov), (No Jim) - 10/5/2012 3:31:53 AM   
DivePac88


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Situation Map for T4 July 17,1941 -




Attachment (1)

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RE: Metaphor – DivePac(Ger) vs Jim D Burns(Sov), (No Jim) - 10/5/2012 3:40:42 AM   
Klydon


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Wow that is a lot of infantry marching through the swamp.

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Post #: 23
RE: Metaphor – DivePac(Ger) vs Jim D Burns(Sov), (No Jim) - 10/5/2012 8:46:23 PM   
DivePac88


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

Wow that is a lot of infantry marching through the swamp.


Hi there Klydon... They are the 2nd Army, and are moving up to take up position south of the the 4th Army.

I think that Stavka has tied there shoelaces together, as there are moving slowly. So I suppose I should have routed them north of the marches, never-mind.

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Post #: 24
Metaphor – DivePac(Ger) vs Jim D Burns(Sov), (No Jim) - 10/10/2012 11:58:38 PM   
DivePac88


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The situation for turn 6, the week starting on the 24th July 1941.

Now I think that some of the ‘dreaded all-knowing them’ think that I am doing very badly so far in this campaign, and they are probably right. Mr Burn’s generalship has been very skilled, and his forward defensive/retire tactics have been very effective.

I am maybe 2 weeks behind some people’s schedule, but I am not too concerned. My mobile divisions are now all in good condition after their short rest, and my excellent infantry divisions are now up, and knocking the enemy around.

Army Group North.

I think that all the signs point to Mr Burns having heavily reinforced the north, and I can see a large strategic force forming south of Lake Ilem, before the Valdai Hills. Also recon is showing that he has built a line of fortified units just south of Leningrad, watch puzzles me somewhat considering his strategy so far.

I sent the 50 army corps which contains 4 divisions to take Tallinn, as I think he has reinforced the city substantially. Plus I don’t want any thorns in my side, which take good divisions away from the main objectives. Meanwhile 26 army corps will hold the line of the River Narva, until 50 army corps can move up and reinforcement any assault.

The 4th panzer group is still operating in a salient east of Pskov, the main reason for this operation was to force the enemy withdraw from the Pskov area. But Mr Burns has held his nerve and will probably withdraw in the next week, which has undoubtedly given him time to reinforce the approaches to Novgorod.

Army Group Center.

Basically 2nd and 3rd panzer groups are now in position awaiting the 4th and 9th armies respectively, to make good penetrations of the enemy front line. This I should be able the next week, and need good wide penetrations to make deep mobile salients.

The plan is for the 3rd panzer group to clear the north bank of the River Divina opposite Vitebsk, and then swing south to Smolensk. The 2nd panzer group is to advance east just south of Mogilev and the move up the east bank of the River Oster to the city of Smolensk.

Army Group South.

This week I pushed back the enemy on the front between Korets in the north and Mogilev-Podolsly in the south; this was done to give good start-lines for both the 6th and 17th armies’ next operation. The plan here is for the 6th army to break the enemy line just south of Zhitomir, while the 17th army dose likewise south of Vinnitsa.

The 1st panzer group’s 46 and 14 panzer corps will then push through the gap created by the 6th army, though Berdichev then swing south to Tetiev. While the 48 and 3 panzer corps with advance though the hole made by the 17th army, and swing north in a semi-circle to meet the 46 and 14 panzer corps in the Tetiev and Zhasgkov areas.

End




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by DivePac88 -- 10/14/2012 12:35:29 AM >


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Post #: 25
RE: Metaphor – DivePac(Ger) vs Jim D Burns(Sov), (No Jim) - 10/11/2012 3:25:08 AM   
Klydon


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A couple of things I see:

First, please turn on fort levels so those of us watching can see how well a given sector is dug in, etc. (I love the graphics set you are using by the way, very nice).

Marching a lot of infantry through the swamp is hard on them. Check the fatigue levels of those Second Army units. The other issue is you have no supply lines for them without going through a lot of swamps, so resupply for them isn't very good. I don't know if you are wrecking a bunch of trucks doing supply for them or not, but it is sort of a waste. Typically they get sent in the wake of 2nd panzer group to go south and link up with 6th army or some will send them to go south of 16th army of AGN. Marching through the swamp is slow and it will take longer to get those units to the front where they can have an impact.

A reminder that forts are needed to take fortifications above level 2 in most cases (in or next to a city works as well I think). If he has fort units up by Leningrad, it likely means he plans on digging in up there and having a strong line of fortifications waiting for you when you get there.



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Post #: 26
RE: Metaphor – DivePac(Ger) vs Jim D Burns(Sov), (No Jim) - 10/11/2012 8:42:58 AM   
DivePac88


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Thanks there Klydon...

I will have the fort symbols on for the next map, I am using Redmarkas's map, with a combination of Geyerfalck's counters and tactical symbols, along with the regular information panel.

Damn never thought about the fatigue levels in the swamp, as I was marching them along the rail lines. The reason I did this, was I though Mr Burns would defend the river lines as he has else where. But because of your advise; I will move the 2 army corps now in the middle of the swamp, to the north and flank his line there. While moving the 2 southern army corps along the southern face of the swamp, and attaching the SS cavalry brigade to screen the center.



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RE: Metaphor – DivePac(Ger) vs Jim D Burns(Sov), (No Jim) - 10/11/2012 9:42:10 AM   
janh

 

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I think you're doing well with the schedule. Your are still within or even ahead of the historical pace despite Jim's efforts. He seems to handle the defense well. Even if you would try to advance AGC brute force against the dense carpet of units on or around the landbridge with plenty of deliberate attacks, the progress will be slow -- unless you score the break-thrus you're aiming for. Hmmh, feels like a deja-vu.

The infantry in the Pripyat swamps is indeed not ideal, Klydon is right. This is excellent cavalry terrain, you would better use your lone division left with 2 Panzergruppe to screen the area against raids and just a minimum of supporting infantry. The swamp will fall easier once AGC and AGS pushed past Mogilev/Gomel and Kiev.

I'd not vector II./Panzergruppe 1 to the south of Zhitomir, though. Looks pretty heavily defended, not sure you could get thru fast enough to make a pocket there. How about a more northern pincer, scratching at Olevsk? Or adding this element to the force aimed at Vinnitsa and trying to push fast via Krivoirog to the Djenpr bend, and then heading north? That might take advantage of a great asset in this open terrain compared to the Russians: your units are much faster, you might be able to outrun their retreat... If they get behind schedule once to set up such nice lines as Jim did here, he will struggle to get his counter in place in time.
One thing I also notice is the way you spread your infantry Armies. Except for the Axis minors, I think you can spread some thinner as Soviets aren't such a threat at this stage, while you could concentrate the others more. That might help to make progress in key areas, while the rest is best kept stationary anyway to end up ready for pocketing...



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Post #: 28
Metaphor – DivePac(Ger) vs Jim D Burns(Sov), (No Jim) - 10/12/2012 5:02:10 AM   
DivePac88


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Hi there janh...

Thanks for your comments; and I'm going to move the 2nd armie's HQ, and infantry divisions out of the central swamp. Also I have transferred the Heer cavalry division and the SS cavalry brigade to the 2nd army.

I like that idea of yours on the Vinnitsa axis for the 2 northern panzer corps of panzer group one, and if the infantry can punch a good hole there I will use it.

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Post #: 29
RE: Metaphor – DivePac(Ger) vs Jim D Burns(Sov), (No Jim) - 10/12/2012 8:34:16 AM   
janh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DivePac88
I like that idea of yours on the Vinnitsa axis for the 2 northern panzer corps of panzer group one, and if the infantry can punch a good hole there I will use it.


You're probably right, my other suggestion taking it past the swamps southern border may well be a dead end. I didn't think of that. Perhaps you could make one last pocket before Kiev, but that doesn't work, the Panzer would be stuck on the northern approaches to Kiev. And north of Kiev I see no way to get them over the river in a reasonable time... I made that mistake once.

Keep them rolling!
Jan

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