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Get the A6M5c in Aug 42 or A6M8 in Oct 42

 
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Get the A6M5c in Aug 42 or A6M8 in Oct 42 - 9/18/2012 2:43:13 PM   
wac29

 

Posts: 206
Joined: 1/13/2011
Status: offline 		I have not seen many people writing about how dramatic the effect of heavy research with the engine bonus can be.

You can get the A6M5c way early by:

Build size-30 research factories for either the A6M2-Rufe (best) or A6M3.
Increase Ha-35 engine production by 30x (number of factories)

As the factories fully repair move them one model at a time along the upgrade path to A6M5c. I assumed they all repair by 4/1/42 and engine pool >500. In this case the A6M5c would finish:

8 factories 9/4/42
9 factories 8/23/42
10 factories 8/9/42

For the A6M8:

Build factories the same as before
Increase Ha-33 engine production by 30x (number of factories)

Finish times

8 factories 10/30/42
9 factories 10/6/42
10 factories 9/24/42
Post #: 1
RE: Get the A6M5c in Aug 42 or A6M8 in Oct 42 - 9/18/2012 3:27:05 PM   
Puhis

 

Posts: 1687
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Yes, there is many ways to exploit the game engine. The question is, why would anyone want to do that?

I just hope they get rid of that engine bonus. I mean what's the point with that?

(in reply to wac29)
Post #: 2
RE: Get the A6M5c in Aug 42 or A6M8 in Oct 42 - 9/18/2012 4:01:28 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 17109
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

I just hope they get rid of that engine bonus. I mean what's the point with that?


"They" probably won't, as the programming is focused on bug squashing at this time.

I think the idea was that engines helped test novel airframes and thereby speed the overall process to fielding an airframe / engine match. But yes, this can be exploited to the detriment of gameplay.

_____________________________


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Post #: 3
RE: Get the A6M5c in Aug 42 or A6M8 in Oct 42 - 9/18/2012 4:18:06 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 1866
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Yes, there is many ways to exploit the game engine. The question is, why would anyone want to do that?

I just hope they get rid of that engine bonus. I mean what's the point with that?


More engines available to put into experimental planes to crash into stuff?

(in reply to Puhis)
Post #: 4
RE: Get the A6M5c in Aug 42 or A6M8 in Oct 42 - 9/18/2012 4:52:42 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 17109
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Yes, there is many ways to exploit the game engine. The question is, why would anyone want to do that?

I just hope they get rid of that engine bonus. I mean what's the point with that?


More engines available to put into experimental planes to crash into stuff?


I can't speak for the logic of the game programmers, but it kind of makes sense.

The P47D wouldn't have been the plane it was without engine development of the 2000hp radial that had to be built for it. This took time. Similarly, earlier P-38 models could have been THAT much more successful in the field at high altitudes with reliable superchargers to match the airframe design. You can't have jet aircraft without a jet engine, so which speeds which through the developmental process? Including this bit of code recognizes this relationship, but (again) it can quickly be turned into an exploit.

_____________________________


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Post #: 5
RE: Get the A6M5c in Aug 42 or A6M8 in Oct 42 - 9/18/2012 6:01:17 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 17109
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: online 		Ooh...thought of another example:

How much did the 'development' of the MiG-15's engine help field the MiG-15? The British, by 'licensing' the RR Nene technology to Stalin allowed pirating, loss of copyright and ultimately a reverse-engineered "Klimov RD-45". This development-focused on 'engine-first' principles-moved the MiG-15 deployment forward by YEARS.

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Post #: 6
RE: Get the A6M5c in Aug 42 or A6M8 in Oct 42 - 9/18/2012 6:11:01 PM   
Puhis

 

Posts: 1687
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline 		I still can't understand how mass producing 1941 engine model helps developing 1945 airplane...

Hindsight and R&D are powerful features for player 1. It's a good feature, but with that engine bonus makes it way too good. Doubling R&D points cost just some resources and HI points.

Of course R&D really helps mostly plane models that have long upgrade path (especially Zeros, but also Oscars, Ki-61/100 etc.) I still feel that exploiting this feature is too easy.

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 7
RE: Get the A6M5c in Aug 42 or A6M8 in Oct 42 - 9/18/2012 7:49:57 PM   
SuluSea


Posts: 2025
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Yes, there is many ways to exploit the game engine. The question is, why would anyone want to do that?

I just hope they get rid of that engine bonus. I mean what's the point with that?


I'm not a fan of the engine bonus either and don't make use of it. I understand player one pays for everything they get and it's a big cost involved that said it just feels like an exploit to me.

(in reply to Puhis)
Post #: 8
RE: Get the A6M5c in Aug 42 or A6M8 in Oct 42 - 9/18/2012 8:57:49 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 17109
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: online 		SuluSea and Puhis,

What would you recommend for PBEM games to ameliorate this issue for the Allies? I'd like to keep the 'Monty Hall" aspect of the Japanese uber-research to a minimum.

_____________________________


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Post #: 9
RE: Get the A6M5c in Aug 42 or A6M8 in Oct 42 - 9/19/2012 2:05:55 AM   
SuluSea


Posts: 2025
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

SuluSea and Puhis,

What would you recommend for PBEM games to ameliorate this issue for the Allies? I'd like to keep the 'Monty Hall" aspect of the Japanese uber-research to a minimum.


Hi Andre, here's what I feel is fair (not saying any or all will agree)

This is what I could live with as the Allied or Japan side.

-I don't use engine bonus because for me it doesn't feel right.
-Once I start moving along the upgrade path I don't skip until that airframe is nearly ready to come online (in blue).
-I have no hard or fast rules on how far in advance any plane can be accelerated. The way I look at it is the player is the one using his resources and any advancement of one line will be to the detriment of another usable airframe.
- I feel realistic R&D is a must for all but anything goes matches.

Interesting thread! have fun!!


(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 10
RE: Get the A6M5c in Aug 42 or A6M8 in Oct 42 - 9/19/2012 6:45:02 AM   
Puhis

 

Posts: 1687
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

SuluSea and Puhis,

What would you recommend for PBEM games to ameliorate this issue for the Allies? I'd like to keep the 'Monty Hall" aspect of the Japanese uber-research to a minimum.


Hi Andre, here's what I feel is fair (not saying any or all will agree)

This is what I could live with as the Allied or Japan side.

-I don't use engine bonus because for me it doesn't feel right.
-Once I start moving along the upgrade path I don't skip until that airframe is nearly ready to come online (in blue).
-I have no hard or fast rules on how far in advance any plane can be accelerated. The way I look at it is the player is the one using his resources and any advancement of one line will be to the detriment of another usable airframe.
- I feel realistic R&D is a must for all but anything goes matches.

Interesting thread! have fun!!



Like SuluSea said. It's pretty much up to player how he is going to use R&D. Player 1 can do crazy things with it...

I'm playing PDU off game, with realistic R&D. That means I have to R&D many plane models, not just the best ones. At the moment (5/1943) I have 6 R&D factories working A6M5b, and that's my biggest R&D investment. This feels about right. I do get many models earlier, but I don't get any plane too early. I don't skip models until earlier model is nearly finished. When I started this game, I didn't even know there was an engine bonus, so I didn't pay attention of that. At the moment some of my R&D is using engine bonus, but most models are not.

Also I won't use Rufe --> A6M5 upgrade path, which means R&D of A6M5 could start early 1942, long before A6M3. IMO it's not right.

I think R&D is OK if player deside not to overuse it. For example no more than 6 R&D factories/plane model series? That should give pretty reasonable outcome.

(in reply to SuluSea)
Post #: 11
RE: Get the A6M5c in Aug 42 or A6M8 in Oct 42 - 9/19/2012 3:18:49 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 5571
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline 		I personally restrict myself to 6 months of max advance in R&D. 6 months sounds resonable to me. But i've witnessed (from the recieving part!) with Rader how it feels to be the allies and see the Shindens coming online in jan 44, or the Jets in mid 44.... along with Tony Ki-100 in early 43 ...it just doesn't feel right

(in reply to Puhis)
Post #: 12
RE: Get the A6M5c in Aug 42 or A6M8 in Oct 42 - 9/19/2012 5:17:20 PM   
Puhis

 

Posts: 1687
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Ki-100 is easy to get, because it's part of the ki-61 upgrade path.

One more thing I like to add. Playing PDU off, Japan have to accelerate carrier planes if they want to accelerate carriers. Now it seems that I'm getting 2 carriers in summer 1943 without replacement planes (For example A6M5b is not ready yet). Maybe I can find some land based planes for them...

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 13
RE: Get the A6M5c in Aug 42 or A6M8 in Oct 42 - 9/20/2012 12:31:05 AM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

Posts: 1620
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
i have a problem with the entire R&D system

totally unfair to let japs research stuff while allied is stuck with their historically arrival dates


better to keep the engine subtypes with historical dates, but let the variants come whenever the player wants

for example, D4Y3's engine was available from 12/42 (the Ha-33-62)

so you can decide to use the D4Y1 (Ha-60-11) or D4Y3 (Ha-33-62),

while D4Y2 (Ha-60-23) arrives in 4/44



also let the player reseize air units as they please

_____________________________

"No Enemy Survives Contact with the Plan" - Commander Stormwolf

(in reply to wac29)
Post #: 14
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