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Ki-27B What do you do?

 
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Ki-27B What do you do? - 9/14/2012 2:55:01 PM   
Empire101


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Don't be afraid of Nates. Compared to Oscars, the biggest difference is really only range. Both are poorly armed, have high manouver, and very fragile. Nates can work just fine in CAP roles. You need the Oscars for Escort.

The problem I always have is with Claude's. Huge difference between Claude and Zeke, especially armament.

BTW: this is historically accurate. Nates held their own in China against the China and later the SOV fighters. They can't take on 4E's or later US fighters though, and they can't escort due to range.


quote:


Good point. I never thought of it like that, I've been obsessed with range because of the vast distances involved, but as you point out, in China it does'nt matter so much.

The airforce in China (in my games) has always been last on the list for upgrades though.


The above came up in the 'A Lemon Rises in the East' AAR, and it got me to wondering what build strategy players employ regarding the Nate, when playing the GC in Scenario 1 and 2.

At the start of the Grand Campaigns, there are quite a few about, but as they are quite fragile, they suffer quite high operational losses so there is a demand for replacements.

At the start of the GC's there are over 230+ of the dead end Nakajima Kotobuki engine in stock for these flying cheese crates, so what do players consider the best build strategy for these aircraft?

I used to switch all Nate production over to Oscar Ic immediately & change any Nakajima Kotobuki production to more useful designs, but then I was left with hundreds of engines that never got used.

I've changed my mind in the last couple of games, change the engine production immediately, and now build out the pooled engines by putting them in Nates, and using that aircraft as my primary fighter in China, whilst using the rest in training formations in the Home Islands and Manchuria. Once the engine pool reaches zero, I then switch Nates to Oscar production.

I've come to the conclusion that 230+ Kotobuki engines are 230+ half built aircraft, so I might as well use them up as a pool of trainers or fighters in China.

But is that the right conclusion?
What do you all think?




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RE: Ki-27B What do you do? - 9/14/2012 3:08:42 PM   
PaxMondo


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Mike and I reached the same conclusion (about half built planes) on a number of models.  Which and how many I build varies quite a bit from game to game, but I generally build some .... 

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RE: Ki-27B What do you do? - 9/14/2012 3:12:38 PM   
Empire101


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Mike and I reached the same conclusion (about half built planes) on a number of models.  Which and how many I build varies quite a bit from game to game, but I generally build some .... 



Great! At least I'm not doing something daft!!

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RE: Ki-27B What do you do? - 9/14/2012 3:24:52 PM   
PaxMondo


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I don't think so, but if you are, so are we. 


My thinking is that towards the end of hte war, I will need 1000's of kami's.  That doesn't include all the other a/c I will need.  Many of the early war a/c make fine fodder for the kami units.  Just be sure that you always keep enough air groups training with them so that the AI doesn't convert your pool into dust ... 

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RE: Ki-27B What do you do? - 9/14/2012 3:28:56 PM   
Empire101


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Another good point. I'll bear that in mind!!

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RE: Ki-27B What do you do? - 9/14/2012 3:31:48 PM   
Puhis

 

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I've never build a single crap called Ki-27 Nate. I'll rather keep "half-built" crap than have completely build crap...

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RE: Ki-27B What do you do? - 9/14/2012 3:47:07 PM   
Empire101


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

I've never build a single crap called Ki-27 Nate. I'll rather keep "half-built" crap than have completely build crap...



You've got a point...

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RE: Ki-27B What do you do? - 9/14/2012 3:54:01 PM   
PaxMondo


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See how varied the opinions are?  

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RE: Ki-27B What do you do? - 9/14/2012 3:57:12 PM   
Empire101


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

See how varied the opinions are?  


Yep!!


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RE: Ki-27B What do you do? - 9/14/2012 4:06:29 PM   
Puhis

 

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In my PBEM game it's 5/1943, and my IJA fighter training units are still using mostly Nates. I did not built any, and I still have 296 Nates in pool. So I see no point building any Nates, what I have in 12/1941 is more than enough. I just don't need 230+ extra planes...

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RE: Ki-27B What do you do? - 9/14/2012 4:19:09 PM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

In my PBEM game it's 5/1943, and my IJA fighter training units are still using mostly Nates. I did not built any, and I still have 296 Nates in pool. So I see no point building any Nates, what I have in 12/1941 is more than enough. I just don't need 230+ extra planes...

And for me, when its 5/43 I'm in a total panic as I know in '45 I will blow through +1000 planes a week in kami attacks (not every week of course, but when the allied fleet sorties, I need to be able to throw everything at them hard and fast and as many times as I can) and am trying to figure out how I will get that many in my pools. I did my calcs and came up with starting to build kami pool in '41 was my solution.

This is far from generally accepted .... and yet to be proven. Just my opinion ... oh, and my opponent is Andy AI ... so you need to take that into account.

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RE: Ki-27B What do you do? - 9/14/2012 4:19:27 PM   
Empire101


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

In my PBEM game it's 5/1943, and my IJA fighter training units are still using mostly Nates. I did not built any, and I still have 296 Nates in pool. So I see no point building any Nates, what I have in 12/1941 is more than enough. I just don't need 230+ extra planes...


But don't you think Pax has a point about pooling aircraft for kamikaze's later on?

The Nate is just fine for a year or so as a frontline aircraft in China don't you think?

The Nate sucks, but if you want a plane that really blows

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you......( fanfare/roll on drums ).....The Claude!!


< Message edited by Empire101 -- 9/14/2012 4:26:30 PM >


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RE: Ki-27B What do you do? - 9/14/2012 4:35:54 PM   
Puhis

 

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About Kamis: I think Nate is a bad Kami plane, slow and vulnerable. Allied CAP have plenty of time to intercept strikes with Nates. And 230 Nates are not going to change anything. I'd rather built something better (=faster).

About China: Nate is a crap, and it's a crap even in China. Wait 'till your Nate CAP meets sweeping P-40s...

Planes and engines are actually cheap compared to shipbuilding, armament or vehicle production. If I want to save couple HI points, I shut down some armament or vehicle factories. I don't save HI points by producing outdated planes just because I have spare engines.

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RE: Ki-27B What do you do? - 9/14/2012 4:39:47 PM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

About China: Nate is a crap, and it's a crap even in China. Wait 'till your Nate CAP meets sweeping P-40s...


I get the same results for Nate or Oscar against sweeping P-40's (or the AVG) ... or better to say the same tactics against allied sweeps work whether I have Nates or Oscars* involved. Nates can't escort my Sally's though ...

* referring to early Oscars that are armed much the same as the Nate. Later Oscar get a little bit better armament.

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RE: Ki-27B What do you do? - 9/14/2012 5:00:25 PM   
Puhis

 

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Yes, Oscar models Ia and Ib are crap too. Ic with 2 x 12,7 mm MGs is lot better plane. Ic can actually kill something.

Maybe I despise Nates because I've never had any luck with them. Not even vs. unescorted bombers. For me Nate is only a trainer.

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RE: Ki-27B What do you do? - 9/14/2012 5:10:14 PM   
SqzMyLemon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Maybe I despise Nates because I've never had any luck with them. Not even vs. unescorted bombers. For me Nate is only a trainer.


I find the best use for Nate's, besides training, is CAP over likely early B-17 targets such as ports. They won't bring any of the heavies down, but they seem to damage and break up the attack more effectively than Zero's or Oscar's do. They remain in this role until they can be upgraded and moved forward.

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RE: Ki-27B What do you do? - 9/14/2012 9:28:25 PM   
WO Katsuki

 

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empty the kotobuki pool , build those Nates as trainers for 1/2 price

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RE: Ki-27B What do you do? - 9/14/2012 10:59:05 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

I've never build a single crap called Ki-27 Nate. I'll rather keep "half-built" crap than have completely build crap...


This is generally my approach as well. I've got far more important things for those factories to be working on than churning out immediately obsolete airframes / deathtraps.

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RE: Ki-27B What do you do? - 9/14/2012 11:00:38 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

In my PBEM game it's 5/1943, and my IJA fighter training units are still using mostly Nates. I did not built any, and I still have 296 Nates in pool. So I see no point building any Nates, what I have in 12/1941 is more than enough. I just don't need 230+ extra planes...

And for me, when its 5/43 I'm in a total panic as I know in '45 I will blow through +1000 planes a week in kami attacks (not every week of course, but when the allied fleet sorties, I need to be able to throw everything at them hard and fast and as many times as I can) and am trying to figure out how I will get that many in my pools. I did my calcs and came up with starting to build kami pool in '41 was my solution.

This is far from generally accepted .... and yet to be proven. Just my opinion ... oh, and my opponent is Andy AI ... so you need to take that into account.


This is why I build lots of extra Oscar IIa and IIb airframes throughout 1942-1943. The Nate is a poorer choice for even a kamikaze airframe.

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RE: Ki-27B What do you do? - 9/14/2012 11:15:34 PM   
obvert


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Not only do you lose good pilots flying Nates, but you also give kills to the Allied pilots in marginal aircraft like he Buffalo, the Mohawk, the Demon, or even an I-15. Why give away extra kills and make those pilots better?

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RE: Ki-27B What do you do? - 9/15/2012 12:16:43 AM   
sandman455


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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Not only do you lose good pilots flying Nates, but you also give kills to the Allied pilots in marginal aircraft like he Buffalo, the Mohawk, the Demon, or even an I-15. Why give away extra kills and make those pilots better?


+1

I try to keep some in the pools playing with PDU off, but I don't build them just to use the engines. Pilots - especially the good ones - shouldn't be wasted in Ki-27's. My advice would be to move the Ki-27 groups out of harms way, strip them of good pilots, fill them full of replacements and start training.

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RE: Ki-27B What do you do? - 9/15/2012 3:25:59 AM   
ny59giants


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Use some of your Nates as NF. They may not be able to destroy too many bombers at night, but they can ruin their aim and lessen the damage the bombers inflict. They are better than nothing in '42.

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RE: Ki-27B What do you do? - 9/15/2012 4:25:00 AM   
Dili

 

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Was the Nate so useless historically in WW2? Any assessment? Any book about Nate aces in WW2?

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RE: Ki-27B What do you do? - 9/15/2012 12:08:49 PM   
Miller


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I would have said it would be useless as a kami as it does not carry bombs, just had another look at it and lo and behold it can carry 2 x 50kg.......enough to sink a transport perhaps......I still wouldn't bother building them just for the sake of using up the old engine stocks, after all you did not pay for the engines and it is a much less useful plane than the Oscar 1c.

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RE: Ki-27B What do you do? - 9/15/2012 1:03:58 PM   
moonraker


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Oscars and Nates become cannon fodder anyway once the Allies start getting stuff like Spitfire VC's and P47's. Even the early model P38's seem to do quite well against either

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RE: Ki-27B What do you do? - 9/15/2012 1:30:32 PM   
CV 2

 

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Nates have as much chance of getting through the late war CAP to expend themselves as kamakazies as they do of flying air superiority missions against those same CAP aircraft. And the lack of range at the start of the war isnt going to change.

Nate (and Claude) is a waste of production points. Dont bother.

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RE: Ki-27B What do you do? - 9/15/2012 1:39:46 PM   
Empire101


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Hmmmmmm..... opinion is certainly divided.

I think I shall sit down and consider all the comments here and evaluate!!

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RE: Ki-27B What do you do? - 9/15/2012 2:24:48 PM   
SuluSea


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I change Nate factories to Ki-43-1c and build them because you need as many Oscars as early as possible to get Ki-27b's off the front line. Crazy enough the Ki-27b's are one tick more durable than the Ki-43's but we need the extra legs and punch (hehe) the Oscar provides.

If you're dumping enough R&D into the airframe you'll have armor before you know it.

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RE: Ki-27B What do you do? - 9/15/2012 3:30:39 PM   
btbw

 

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Nates good on early stage as strafe bomber in China. I build some Nates from engine pool and use later as training plane.

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RE: Ki-27B What do you do? - 9/21/2012 5:58:51 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

Was the Nate so useless historically in WW2? Any assessment? Any book about Nate aces in WW2?


no. Far from useless. Christopher Shores has a book devoted to IJAAF aces of the war.


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