BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test
Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition
BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test
[font="Times New Roman"]TEST[/font]
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After a raid on Madras in my game against JockMeister during which 4 British BB were hit by between 17-21 bombs Jocke noticed fairly low damage numbers, then a sudden spike in system damage on three of the four BBs several days later. There is a thread in the Tech forum with all of the details.
After some help from many veteran and newer players, including the sage advice of LoBaron and encyclopedic knowledge of Alfred, it looked like this was not a bug but the result of the replacement of devices during repair in port while the ships were in a state of readiness (not at pier side).
Here are the results of a test I ran out of curiosity about the device repair creating massive system damage. I was incredulous at first that damage could have been so low on the BBs, and now I realize that the game simply defers the damage until the devices are actually replaced. Something new for me. Many of you have most likely experienced this before. The part I'm most interested in is that this means BBs might not be sunk by smaller bombs (500lb/250kg or less) but they will be damage, possibly severely, if they take enough hits to destroy devices or to start fires that destroy them.
The BB Valiant in my test below was hit by 117 Bettys, and they hit the ship 61 times! 17 x 250kg and 44 x 60kg! After the turn the damage is still minimal by the numbers, although most 2 pdr and 20mm guns are destroyed and radar is shattered. The numbers are 9-6-0. Not much to show for 61 hits. No fires burning either in spite of the 'heavy fires' just after the attack.
The spike in system damage and repaired guns came several days after the attack. The port first repaired some of the other CA/CL hit and only when I put them into a TF did it work on the BB.
My main questions now are:
What happens with the rest of the unrepaired devices? Does the system damage have to go down to a lower level before they can be fixed, and will it then spike again? Or does it repair them with the system damage at 99 and that is it?
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AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Nov 13, 42
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Morning Air attack on Madras , at 35,40
Weather in hex: Light rain
Raid detected at 103 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 36 minutes
Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 117
Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 2 damaged
Allied Ships
CA Devonshire, Bomb hits 12, heavy fires
BB Valiant, Bomb hits 61, heavy fires
CL Caradoc, Bomb hits 6
CL Durban, Bomb hits 8, on fire
CL Birmingham, Bomb hits 5
CLAA Van Heemskerck, Bomb hits 9, on fire
Port hits 31
Port fuel hits 2
Port supply hits 1
Aircraft Attacking:
45 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 9000 feet
Port Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
36 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 9000 feet
Port Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
36 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 9000 feet
Port Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
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[font="Trebuchet MS"]In the first pick you can see all of the destroyed devices. In the next the 2 pdr guns have been repaired, and the system damage has gone to 99. [/font]
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
After a raid on Madras in my game against JockMeister during which 4 British BB were hit by between 17-21 bombs Jocke noticed fairly low damage numbers, then a sudden spike in system damage on three of the four BBs several days later. There is a thread in the Tech forum with all of the details.
After some help from many veteran and newer players, including the sage advice of LoBaron and encyclopedic knowledge of Alfred, it looked like this was not a bug but the result of the replacement of devices during repair in port while the ships were in a state of readiness (not at pier side).
Here are the results of a test I ran out of curiosity about the device repair creating massive system damage. I was incredulous at first that damage could have been so low on the BBs, and now I realize that the game simply defers the damage until the devices are actually replaced. Something new for me. Many of you have most likely experienced this before. The part I'm most interested in is that this means BBs might not be sunk by smaller bombs (500lb/250kg or less) but they will be damage, possibly severely, if they take enough hits to destroy devices or to start fires that destroy them.
The BB Valiant in my test below was hit by 117 Bettys, and they hit the ship 61 times! 17 x 250kg and 44 x 60kg! After the turn the damage is still minimal by the numbers, although most 2 pdr and 20mm guns are destroyed and radar is shattered. The numbers are 9-6-0. Not much to show for 61 hits. No fires burning either in spite of the 'heavy fires' just after the attack.
The spike in system damage and repaired guns came several days after the attack. The port first repaired some of the other CA/CL hit and only when I put them into a TF did it work on the BB.
My main questions now are:
What happens with the rest of the unrepaired devices? Does the system damage have to go down to a lower level before they can be fixed, and will it then spike again? Or does it repair them with the system damage at 99 and that is it?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Nov 13, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Madras , at 35,40
Weather in hex: Light rain
Raid detected at 103 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 36 minutes
Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 117
Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 2 damaged
Allied Ships
CA Devonshire, Bomb hits 12, heavy fires
BB Valiant, Bomb hits 61, heavy fires
CL Caradoc, Bomb hits 6
CL Durban, Bomb hits 8, on fire
CL Birmingham, Bomb hits 5
CLAA Van Heemskerck, Bomb hits 9, on fire
Port hits 31
Port fuel hits 2
Port supply hits 1
Aircraft Attacking:
45 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 9000 feet
Port Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
36 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 9000 feet
Port Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
36 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 9000 feet
Port Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
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___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
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[font="Trebuchet MS"]In the first pick you can see all of the destroyed devices. In the next the 2 pdr guns have been repaired, and the system damage has gone to 99. [/font]
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"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test
Interesting to note the reduced AA value that increases slightly due to repaired 2 pdr. But speed goes down from 23 to 18??
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke
RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test
I realize that this example is from vanilla, but you can see exactly what 250kg/550lbs bomb hits can do to a BB. West Virginia got caught at long range by KB in this example, suffered over 200 hits over the course of three days, and eventually sank.
tm.asp?m=1968194&mpage=1&key=west%2Cvirginia�
They may not do a lot of damage, but the fires they can set will eventually sink a ship if not contained.
tm.asp?m=1968194&mpage=1&key=west%2Cvirginia�
They may not do a lot of damage, but the fires they can set will eventually sink a ship if not contained.
Distant Worlds Fan
'When in doubt...attack!'
'When in doubt...attack!'
RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test
ORIGINAL: Shark7
I realize that this example is from vanilla, but you can see exactly what 250kg/550lbs bomb hits can do to a BB. West Virginia got caught at long range by KB in this example, suffered over 200 hits over the course of three days, and eventually sank.
tm.asp?m=1968194&mpage=1&key=west%2Cvirginia�
They may not do a lot of damage, but the fires they can set will eventually sink a ship if not contained.
Thanks. Pretty amazing. Love one of the comments that noticed the Kingfishers still proudly sitting on their catapults untouched after 200 bomb hits. [:D]
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test
Even better reading some of herwin's responses again. ... RIP.
Pax
- Fallschirmjager
- Posts: 3555
- Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2002 12:46 am
- Location: Chattanooga, Tennessee
RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test
ORIGINAL: obvert
ORIGINAL: Shark7
I realize that this example is from vanilla, but you can see exactly what 250kg/550lbs bomb hits can do to a BB. West Virginia got caught at long range by KB in this example, suffered over 200 hits over the course of three days, and eventually sank.
tm.asp?m=1968194&mpage=1&key=west%2Cvirginia�
They may not do a lot of damage, but the fires they can set will eventually sink a ship if not contained.
Thanks. Pretty amazing. Love one of the comments that noticed the Kingfishers still proudly sitting on their catapults untouched after 200 bomb hits. [:D]
I did not know this until recently so it may seem like common knowledge to some, but it was practiced in most navies that if the ship was assumed to be going into action the float planes would be jettisoned as they presented a serious fire hazard.
- Fallschirmjager
- Posts: 3555
- Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2002 12:46 am
- Location: Chattanooga, Tennessee
RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test
I also hope if their is ever an WitP 2 that near misses are better modeled. Again, I have been doing a lot of reading lately and it seems that there are more near misses doing varying levels of damage compared to actual direct hits.
RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test
I once in a game as Japan trapped 3 Allied BBs in the lagoon at Makin. They couldn't leave, but all I could hit them with for awhile was Sallys. It took about 20 turns of bombing, and dozens and dozens of 250kg hits....but eventually they suffered sys damage, caught fire, and sank. Takes forever though.....
RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test
I don't get it. There are no fires so how come sys damage jumps to 99?
- treespider
- Posts: 5781
- Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 7:34 am
- Location: Edgewater, MD
RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test
ORIGINAL: Yaab
I don't get it. There are no fires so how come sys damage jumps to 99?
See this thread in tech support...
tm.asp?m=3178857
Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB
"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB
"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910
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RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test
ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager
I did not know this until recently so it may seem like common knowledge to some, but it was practiced in most navies that if the ship was assumed to be going into action the float planes would be jettisoned as they presented a serious fire hazard.
I was under the impression they were launched and doing the job they were intended for, spotting and searching?
RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test
ORIGINAL: Chris H
ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager
I did not know this until recently so it may seem like common knowledge to some, but it was practiced in most navies that if the ship was assumed to be going into action the float planes would be jettisoned as they presented a serious fire hazard.
I was under the impression they were launched and doing the job they were intended for, spotting and searching?
They were, if possible, due to the lessons learned at Savo (when IJN shells set float planes on fire on the catapults, arguably helping to sink the Allied ships). If it wasn't possible or the order to launch was missed then the plane(s) were simply jettisoned (Helena in the first night action in the November battles for Guadalcanal, Nov 12-13).
I believe that in the second night action (IIRC), South Dakota's aft turret muzzle blast set her own float planes on fire... Luckily for her, a second salvo from the turret blew the flaming planes overboard.
- michaelm75au
- Posts: 12455
- Joined: Sat May 05, 2001 8:00 am
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test
If you have the test save of the attack on Valiant, I'll like to look at it and try running a test to see what happens if the damage is applied AFTER attack rather during port repairs.
Thanks
If you do, just post it at end of the thread in the Tech Forum.
Thanks
If you do, just post it at end of the thread in the Tech Forum.
Michael
RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test
ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
I believe that in the second night action (IIRC), South Dakota's aft turret muzzle blast set her own float planes on fire... Luckily for her, a second salvo from the turret blew the flaming planes overboard.
I've actually been surprise at how many references I've seen of FP being placed with little or no thought to the ships weapon systems.
Most recently I read some of the history of the HMAS Perth and it was mentioned several times that the SOP was to sail without the FP loaded as the AA guns could not fire with the plane on board (the catapult rail and plane housing sat directly in front of them).
- michaelm75au
- Posts: 12455
- Joined: Sat May 05, 2001 8:00 am
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test
Damaged devices will be repaired as the SYS damage drops. Does not need or even should go to 0 before all devices are fixed.
Michael
RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test
ORIGINAL: michaelm
If you have the test save of the attack on Valiant, I'll like to look at it and try running a test to see what happens if the damage is applied AFTER attack rather during port repairs.
Thanks
If you do, just post it at end of the thread in the Tech Forum.
I'll post it later today.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
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RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test
ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager
I also hope if their is ever an WitP 2 that near misses are better modeled. Again, I have been doing a lot of reading lately and it seems that there are more near misses doing varying levels of damage compared to actual direct hits.
Actually, during the Ostfriesland tests, Billy Mitchell ordered his pilots to try for near misses as they were more damaging. A "direct hit" with all but the heaviest armor-piercing bombs will detonate above the water line. A "near miss" will detonate below the water line and act more like a torpedo. Letting air into a ship is usually not as fatal as letting in water.
RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test
Problem with near miss not enough explosive charge for work like torpedo exploding.
RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test
ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager
ORIGINAL: obvert
ORIGINAL: Shark7
I realize that this example is from vanilla, but you can see exactly what 250kg/550lbs bomb hits can do to a BB. West Virginia got caught at long range by KB in this example, suffered over 200 hits over the course of three days, and eventually sank.
tm.asp?m=1968194&mpage=1&key=west%2Cvirginia�
They may not do a lot of damage, but the fires they can set will eventually sink a ship if not contained.
Thanks. Pretty amazing. Love one of the comments that noticed the Kingfishers still proudly sitting on their catapults untouched after 200 bomb hits. [:D]
I did not know this until recently so it may seem like common knowledge to some, but it was practiced in most navies that if the ship was assumed to be going into action the float planes would be jettisoned as they presented a serious fire hazard.
If I recall the Houston set off one of her float planes with her first salvos in combat. Starting some nasty fires. Note that a lot of late war Allied upgrades remove the float planes. Probably for this reason and due to the lack of need for them with the abundance of carrier aircraft flying around.
I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.
Sigismund of Luxemburg
Sigismund of Luxemburg
RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test
ORIGINAL: crsutton
ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager
ORIGINAL: obvert
Thanks. Pretty amazing. Love one of the comments that noticed the Kingfishers still proudly sitting on their catapults untouched after 200 bomb hits. [:D]
I did not know this until recently so it may seem like common knowledge to some, but it was practiced in most navies that if the ship was assumed to be going into action the float planes would be jettisoned as they presented a serious fire hazard.
If I recall the Houston set off one of her float planes with her first salvos in combat. Starting some nasty fires. Note that a lot of late war Allied upgrades remove the float planes. Probably for this reason and due to the lack of need for them with the abundance of carrier aircraft flying around.
As well as radar, both search and gunnery.