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BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test

 
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BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test - 9/13/2012 7:37:17 PM   
obvert


Posts: 3680
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: London, UK
Status: offline 		TEST
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

After a raid on Madras in my game against JockMeister during which 4 British BB were hit by between 17-21 bombs Jocke noticed fairly low damage numbers, then a sudden spike in system damage on three of the four BBs several days later. There is a thread in the Tech forum with all of the details.

After some help from many veteran and newer players, including the sage advice of LoBaron and encyclopedic knowledge of Alfred, it looked like this was not a bug but the result of the replacement of devices during repair in port while the ships were in a state of readiness (not at pier side).

Here are the results of a test I ran out of curiosity about the device repair creating massive system damage. I was incredulous at first that damage could have been so low on the BBs, and now I realize that the game simply defers the damage until the devices are actually replaced. Something new for me. Many of you have most likely experienced this before. The part I'm most interested in is that this means BBs might not be sunk by smaller bombs (500lb/250kg or less) but they will be damage, possibly severely, if they take enough hits to destroy devices or to start fires that destroy them.

The BB Valiant in my test below was hit by 117 Bettys, and they hit the ship 61 times! 17 x 250kg and 44 x 60kg! After the turn the damage is still minimal by the numbers, although most 2 pdr and 20mm guns are destroyed and radar is shattered. The numbers are 9-6-0. Not much to show for 61 hits. No fires burning either in spite of the 'heavy fires' just after the attack.

The spike in system damage and repaired guns came several days after the attack. The port first repaired some of the other CA/CL hit and only when I put them into a TF did it work on the BB.

My main questions now are:

What happens with the rest of the unrepaired devices? Does the system damage have to go down to a lower level before they can be fixed, and will it then spike again? Or does it repair them with the system damage at 99 and that is it?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Nov 13, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Morning Air attack on Madras , at 35,40

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 103 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 36 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 117

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 2 damaged

Allied Ships
CA Devonshire, Bomb hits 12, heavy fires
BB Valiant, Bomb hits 61, heavy fires
CL Caradoc, Bomb hits 6
CL Durban, Bomb hits 8, on fire
CL Birmingham, Bomb hits 5
CLAA Van Heemskerck, Bomb hits 9, on fire

Port hits 31
Port fuel hits 2
Port supply hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
45 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 9000 feet
Port Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
36 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 9000 feet
Port Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
36 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 9000 feet
Port Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

In the first pick you can see all of the destroyed devices. In the next the 2 pdr guns have been repaired, and the system damage has gone to 99.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Attachment (1)

< Message edited by obvert -- 9/13/2012 10:47:55 PM >

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Post #: 1
RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test - 9/13/2012 8:36:14 PM   
Hermit

 

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Status: offline 		Interesting to note the reduced AA value that increases slightly due to repaired 2 pdr. But speed goes down from 23 to 18??

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Post #: 2
RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test - 9/13/2012 10:16:22 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 6157
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From: The Big Nowhere
Status: online 		I realize that this example is from vanilla, but you can see exactly what 250kg/550lbs bomb hits can do to a BB. West Virginia got caught at long range by KB in this example, suffered over 200 hits over the course of three days, and eventually sank.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1968194&mpage=1&key=west%2Cvirginia�

They may not do a lot of damage, but the fires they can set will eventually sink a ship if not contained.

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RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test - 9/13/2012 10:45:29 PM   
obvert


Posts: 3680
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

I realize that this example is from vanilla, but you can see exactly what 250kg/550lbs bomb hits can do to a BB. West Virginia got caught at long range by KB in this example, suffered over 200 hits over the course of three days, and eventually sank.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1968194&mpage=1&key=west%2Cvirginia�

They may not do a lot of damage, but the fires they can set will eventually sink a ship if not contained.


Thanks. Pretty amazing. Love one of the comments that noticed the Kingfishers still proudly sitting on their catapults untouched after 200 bomb hits.


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RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test - 9/14/2012 1:35:57 AM   
PaxMondo


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Status: offline 		Even better reading some of herwin's responses again.   ... RIP.

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RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test - 9/14/2012 2:00:04 AM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6302
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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

I realize that this example is from vanilla, but you can see exactly what 250kg/550lbs bomb hits can do to a BB. West Virginia got caught at long range by KB in this example, suffered over 200 hits over the course of three days, and eventually sank.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1968194&mpage=1&key=west%2Cvirginia�

They may not do a lot of damage, but the fires they can set will eventually sink a ship if not contained.


Thanks. Pretty amazing. Love one of the comments that noticed the Kingfishers still proudly sitting on their catapults untouched after 200 bomb hits.



I did not know this until recently so it may seem like common knowledge to some, but it was practiced in most navies that if the ship was assumed to be going into action the float planes would be jettisoned as they presented a serious fire hazard.

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Post #: 6
RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test - 9/14/2012 2:04:13 AM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6302
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From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline 		I also hope if their is ever an WitP 2 that near misses are better modeled. Again, I have been doing a lot of reading lately and it seems that there are more near misses doing varying levels of damage compared to actual direct hits.

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RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test - 9/14/2012 3:14:16 AM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 5261
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Status: offline 		I once in a game as Japan trapped 3 Allied BBs in the lagoon at Makin. They couldn't leave, but all I could hit them with for awhile was Sallys. It took about 20 turns of bombing, and dozens and dozens of 250kg hits....but eventually they suffered sys damage, caught fire, and sank. Takes forever though.....

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Post #: 8
RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test - 9/14/2012 5:51:47 AM   
Yaab


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Status: offline 		I don't get it. There are no fires so how come sys damage jumps to 99?

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RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test - 9/14/2012 7:36:27 AM   
treespider


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

I don't get it. There are no fires so how come sys damage jumps to 99?



See this thread in tech support...

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3178857

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RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test - 9/14/2012 7:42:54 AM   
Chris H

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

I did not know this until recently so it may seem like common knowledge to some, but it was practiced in most navies that if the ship was assumed to be going into action the float planes would be jettisoned as they presented a serious fire hazard.



I was under the impression they were launched and doing the job they were intended for, spotting and searching?

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Post #: 11
RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test - 9/14/2012 6:49:10 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

I did not know this until recently so it may seem like common knowledge to some, but it was practiced in most navies that if the ship was assumed to be going into action the float planes would be jettisoned as they presented a serious fire hazard.



I was under the impression they were launched and doing the job they were intended for, spotting and searching?


They were, if possible, due to the lessons learned at Savo (when IJN shells set float planes on fire on the catapults, arguably helping to sink the Allied ships). If it wasn't possible or the order to launch was missed then the plane(s) were simply jettisoned (Helena in the first night action in the November battles for Guadalcanal, Nov 12-13).

I believe that in the second night action (IIRC), South Dakota's aft turret muzzle blast set her own float planes on fire... Luckily for her, a second salvo from the turret blew the flaming planes overboard.

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RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test - 9/15/2012 12:17:21 AM   
michaelm


Posts: 8198
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		If you have the test save of the attack on Valiant, I'll like to look at it and try running a test to see what happens if the damage is applied AFTER attack rather during port repairs.
Thanks

If you do, just post it at end of the thread in the Tech Forum.

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Post #: 13
RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test - 9/15/2012 12:56:55 AM   
Dobey

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I believe that in the second night action (IIRC), South Dakota's aft turret muzzle blast set her own float planes on fire... Luckily for her, a second salvo from the turret blew the flaming planes overboard.


I've actually been surprise at how many references I've seen of FP being placed with little or no thought to the ships weapon systems.
Most recently I read some of the history of the HMAS Perth and it was mentioned several times that the SOP was to sail without the FP loaded as the AA guns could not fire with the plane on board (the catapult rail and plane housing sat directly in front of them).

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RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test - 9/15/2012 4:50:30 AM   
michaelm


Posts: 8198
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From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		Damaged devices will be repaired as the SYS damage drops. Does not need or even should go to 0 before all devices are fixed.

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RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test - 9/15/2012 10:29:10 AM   
obvert


Posts: 3680
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From: London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

If you have the test save of the attack on Valiant, I'll like to look at it and try running a test to see what happens if the damage is applied AFTER attack rather during port repairs.
Thanks

If you do, just post it at end of the thread in the Tech Forum.


I'll post it later today.

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Post #: 16
RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test - 9/15/2012 2:33:32 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

I also hope if their is ever an WitP 2 that near misses are better modeled. Again, I have been doing a lot of reading lately and it seems that there are more near misses doing varying levels of damage compared to actual direct hits.



Actually, during the Ostfriesland tests, Billy Mitchell ordered his pilots to try for near misses as they were more damaging. A "direct hit" with all but the heaviest armor-piercing bombs will detonate above the water line. A "near miss" will detonate below the water line and act more like a torpedo. Letting air into a ship is usually not as fatal as letting in water.

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Post #: 17
RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test - 9/15/2012 3:24:58 PM   
btbw

 

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Status: offline 		Problem with near miss not enough explosive charge for work like torpedo exploding.

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RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test - 9/15/2012 4:07:48 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

I realize that this example is from vanilla, but you can see exactly what 250kg/550lbs bomb hits can do to a BB. West Virginia got caught at long range by KB in this example, suffered over 200 hits over the course of three days, and eventually sank.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1968194&mpage=1&key=west%2Cvirginia�

They may not do a lot of damage, but the fires they can set will eventually sink a ship if not contained.


Thanks. Pretty amazing. Love one of the comments that noticed the Kingfishers still proudly sitting on their catapults untouched after 200 bomb hits.



I did not know this until recently so it may seem like common knowledge to some, but it was practiced in most navies that if the ship was assumed to be going into action the float planes would be jettisoned as they presented a serious fire hazard.




If I recall the Houston set off one of her float planes with her first salvos in combat. Starting some nasty fires. Note that a lot of late war Allied upgrades remove the float planes. Probably for this reason and due to the lack of need for them with the abundance of carrier aircraft flying around.

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RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test - 9/15/2012 10:21:31 PM   
Lokasenna


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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

I realize that this example is from vanilla, but you can see exactly what 250kg/550lbs bomb hits can do to a BB. West Virginia got caught at long range by KB in this example, suffered over 200 hits over the course of three days, and eventually sank.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1968194&mpage=1&key=west%2Cvirginia�

They may not do a lot of damage, but the fires they can set will eventually sink a ship if not contained.


Thanks. Pretty amazing. Love one of the comments that noticed the Kingfishers still proudly sitting on their catapults untouched after 200 bomb hits.



I did not know this until recently so it may seem like common knowledge to some, but it was practiced in most navies that if the ship was assumed to be going into action the float planes would be jettisoned as they presented a serious fire hazard.




If I recall the Houston set off one of her float planes with her first salvos in combat. Starting some nasty fires. Note that a lot of late war Allied upgrades remove the float planes. Probably for this reason and due to the lack of need for them with the abundance of carrier aircraft flying around.


As well as radar, both search and gunnery.

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RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test - 9/15/2012 10:29:41 PM   
spence

 

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From: vermont
Status: offline 		IRL the HIJMS Hyuga, Ise, and Haruna were all rendered completely "hors de combat" and "somewhat submerged" at the end of the war by hits from 500 lb bombs. Perhaps some of the bombs were bigger but I'm pretty sure that not one torpedo hit any of them...likewise I'm also pretty sure that the number of 500 lb hits was nothing like the 60 odd or 200 odd that have been noted above.

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Post #: 21
RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test - 9/16/2012 12:02:06 AM   
wdolson

 

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Status: offline 		The Akagi was rendered inoperable due to a near miss. Only three SBDs dived on her. Commander Best put his 1000 lb in the middle of the flight deck, but the two 500 lb bombs from the other two SBDs both scored near misses. One caused some minor damage forward, but the critical hit was the near miss that jammed the rudder.

Near misses in shallow water would be even more devastating that in deep water. The reflection of the blast wave off the bottom could break a keel. I believe that's how the Tirpitz was finally sunk. A near miss by a Tall Boy. I wouldn't want to be anywhere near that fjord when that went off.

Bill

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RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test - 9/16/2012 3:05:13 AM   
Dili

 

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Status: offline 		The British didn't attacked Taranto with two carriers because HMS Eagle was damaged by near misses.


quote:

Love one of the comments that noticed the Kingfishers still proudly sitting on their catapults untouched after 200 bomb hits.


The damage model is not very good with many hits. We see it by the few times that weapons/devices are hit.

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Post #: 23
RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test - 9/17/2012 12:05:02 AM   
obvert


Posts: 3680
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From: London, UK
Status: offline 		I'v been trying to find out what bombs hit those BBs sunk at Kure in 45. Since they were hit by CV planes, they could have been all 1,000 pounders, or some combination of various sizes. I've only been able to find out how many hit each BB, such as Hyuga taking a near miss one day and 8 bombs the next, at which point she settled into the bay.

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RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test - 9/17/2012 12:09:38 AM   
wdolson

 

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Status: offline 		I think at that point in the war the BBs in Japanese home waters mostly had skeleton crews, so damage control would have been minimum.

Bill

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Post #: 25
RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test - 9/17/2012 12:01:08 PM   
spence

 

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From: vermont
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quote:

I think at that point in the war the BBs in Japanese home waters mostly had skeleton crews, so damage control would have been minimum.


It would depend on what ratings were on the ship. Unlike the American Navy damage control in the IJN was not an all hands evolution but rather the function of specific crew members. So the who in who got left behind would define whether or not there was a degradation of the ship's damage control abilities.




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RE: BB taking 500lb/250kg bombs test - 9/17/2012 6:24:26 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I think at that point in the war the BBs in Japanese home waters mostly had skeleton crews, so damage control would have been minimum.

Bill


true. And damage from prior attacks either was not repaired or was jury-rigged. The ships were not in the best conditions and the deactivated ones would be bottom of the priority list for maintenance and repairs.

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Post #: 27
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