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Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:**

 
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Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** - 9/13/2012 3:51:02 AM   
pumkinfacer22

 

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Hey Guys,

1. I have built a base with 15 of each labs (Weapons,Energy,Hightech) giving me 375k (W,E,H) of Research each in the Edit Design screen (F8) --

1A. is this fine? and is there any reason to throw that up to 600k or leave at 90k..?


2. I have built a base with 15 of each plant (W,E,H) give me 675k of Manufacturing in Edit ship design screen (F8) --- is this ok??

2A. Can someone explain how many Plants I need and why.. for the Plants, is it per construction yard as I thought?? 15 Construction yards need 15 labs? Looking for an explanation of Manufacturing in ship design screen and what the values do/mean for the plants (Weapons,Energy,Hightech)


Once a clear answer/example has been posted here I think this post alone should help all those people searching the war room for research/manufacturing info..
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RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** - 9/13/2012 6:10:33 AM   
boxleitnerb

 

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You need to have as many scientists as you have labs. Otherwise, the lab spaces are empty and don't contribute to research. There is an article right about that, but I'm new so I cannot post links yet.

But I will try to explain anyway:
Let's say you have a lab capacity of 200k+80k+80k=360k (called TRC, total research capacity). To the right of the screen you have the total empire research potential (TERP) - that is basically your number of available scientists to populate the labs with. The term "total" is misleading as you have to account for the bonuses (in green). Let's say you have 583k TERP and two bonuses due to your race and government, 15% and 25%. So the real TERP is 583k * 1.15 * 1.25 = 838k. 280k < 838k, so it is fine. If you build so many labs and have 375k x3 = 1125k TRC, it is likely larger than your real TERP (including bonuses), meaning you have more lab space than scientists. Build only as many labs as you currently need.

(in reply to pumkinfacer22)
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RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** - 9/13/2012 6:38:33 AM   
pumkinfacer22

 

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Thanks,

for Manufacturing:
1.Now how many Plants do you need???? and is it per construction yard by any chance?



back to Research:
And I have a port right now with W:150k E:150l H:150K
My research screen tells me "Total Empire Research Potential : 871k

below: "Actual Output = 229k, 216k, 259k (W,E,H)

(in reply to boxleitnerb)
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RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** - 9/13/2012 7:11:27 AM   
boxleitnerb

 

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871k (probably around 1100k with all bonuses) is a lot more than 150k+150k+150k=450k, so you are fine. You have more scientists than labs, you could build more.

Actual Output includes aforementioned bonuses (from government and race AND specific location bonuses from the locations your labs are placed at). That is why the actual output is significantly larger than each lab capacity.

As for manufacturing, read up here:
matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3096095# (add the usual stuff in front)

Personally I'm getting quite frustrated with the lack of information in this game. These are the things that should be explained thoroughly in the manual or in the interface.

Basically the guy says, that you can have as many concurrent projects as you have construction yards...as long as enough manufacturing plants for the components are free.

Example:
You have 3 construction yards and 4 plants of each sort on your space station.
You want to build 3 ships that require 2 weapon, 2 tech and 2 energy components each.
Construction yard 1 and 2 start with ships 1 and 2 and use all plant capacity (2 for each ship).
Construction yard 3 is free and wants to start assembling the ship, but no plant is currently free to make the required components. It has to wait until one of the other ships is finished.

That is how I understand it. Don't know if it is true, though :D

< Message edited by boxleitnerb -- 9/13/2012 7:21:00 AM >

(in reply to pumkinfacer22)
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RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** - 9/13/2012 7:38:08 AM   
pumkinfacer22

 

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Ok I see what you are saying..

HOWEVER- Where in the Manual/Anywhere Does it explain the Manufacturing Values from Plants in the (F8)Design Screen :
Under "INDUSTRY" Section
W:135K , E: 135k , H: 135k



(thats my current port with 10 construction yards and 3 of each type plant..)) What the heck should I be trying to have for number of Plants? I can't believe such an awesome game is so vague when it comes to simple things like knowing what the value means of components etc!!!

(in reply to boxleitnerb)
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RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** - 9/13/2012 7:48:01 AM   
boxleitnerb

 

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I just played around a bit with the editor, gave myself a custom space port with 100 construction yards but the standard 4 plants of each type. The space port comes with a lot of resources in the cargo hold and immediately all 100 construction yards were busy building 100 ships at once!

I will now try to increase the plant number to 500 each and see if that speeds up construction times.

(in reply to pumkinfacer22)
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RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** - 9/13/2012 4:28:39 PM   
feelotraveller


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Each Plant will build components in that field (weapons, energy, hi tech) of the size of the manufacturing capacity divided by 100.

If you have the first manufacturing advance so that your plants list their capacity at 45000 then each six day period they will build components in that field totalling 450 size.  Any remainder is carried over into the next six day period.

I do not believe this is documented anywhere.  I did tests back in 1.7.0.6 but don't believe anything has changed.  My conclusions back then were that you need one plant of each type for about 30 or 40 construction yards. 

The real equation involves what components the ships in your construction yards are using and my conclusions were drawn from the limit case of freighters under construction which almost exclusively use components from only the energy and hi tech branches.  But seeing as you usually get gluts of private ships constructed this seemed to be a real limit to me.  Note that it also depends on the designs but I found that most of my designs were using components of about a 50/50 split.  The thing to watch in looking for limits is the average size of components since the yards work on a per component rather than per size basis.

Each yard adds components to its capacity divided by 100.  So with the first advance your yards add 3 components each six days.  As far as I was able to tell the remainder was neglected and not carried over.  (As a side note it makes most of the +x% construction bonuses absolutely useless until you have highly advanced construction technology - a size 300 yard with a +20% bonus = 3.6 rounded down to 3 which is the same as without a bonus at all!  You will see some effect on the ships constructed in your planetary dockyards...)

In conclusion 30 yards per manufacturing set (one each of weapons, energy and hi tech) is a safe bet and at 40 yards you may occasionally see a slight slow down if you are producing exclusively private ships.  You can probably actually stretch it further than this and not suffer any slowdowns in most circumstances since the plants will work even when the yards are full.  You can use this effectively to get a 'run-up' where you already have components waiting to go by pre-ordering.  Practically if this margin starts to drop ordering a few military ships -and letting them through to the yards- which use the weapons plant should open it up again.

Basically since you never (well almost never...) get to 30 yards on a spaceport just include one plant of each type and forget about it.

There was no response from the developers when I suggested that they should adjust this (and general incredulity from players, but I stand by it). 

p.s. boxleitnerb please continue your research as I am interested to see if you replicate my results.

[Edit: fixed minor mistake with the capacity of the plants (writing from memory I missed a zero). No difference to the conclusion.]

< Message edited by feelotraveller -- 9/13/2012 6:17:59 PM >

(in reply to boxleitnerb)
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RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** - 9/14/2012 1:28:43 AM   
pumkinfacer22

 

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Thank you for the reply.

I am however not fully satisfied - as you even said "never been documented" and why nobody knows whats the deal with the manufacturing plants is ridiculous to be honest.. But i really hope you find something out with that test posted earlier.. Please reply back with your findings!


I currently have a Energy: 450k Weapons: 450k HighTech: 450k Manufacturing setting in 1 custom base I have.. I think I have maybe 15-30 construction yards.. Is this pointless?


The sad thing is this goes for research too.. I think one base I also had something like E: 300k W: 300k H: 300k and a 647k in Terp? Total energry potential...


(in reply to feelotraveller)
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RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** - 9/14/2012 3:15:05 AM   
feelotraveller


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It is not true that nobody knows.  I'm sure Elliot knows.  I am pretty certain I know too.  My findings are above.  As yet nobody has disputed them.    Do you?

It is pointless having more than one plant of each type unless you have well over 30 construction yards.  (Possible exception: Bakuras.)

If you can only do 647k research it does you no immediate good to have research labs totalling more than this.  Generally aim to have slightly more in total labs than your present potential.  900 is a lot greater than 647 so I would say that you have too much.  Around 675 would be good (exception being that you might want more if your strategic value will increase greatly in near future).  This is empire wide so if you have labs in other places as well you are way over.  That said the only harm it does you (just like with the plants) is extra maintenance cost.

(in reply to pumkinfacer22)
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RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** - 9/14/2012 3:16:04 AM   
pipewrench


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pumkinfacer22

Most people have tried to answer your questions with their best knowledge. Please refrain from "ridiculous" and the immediate demand for satisfaction. People have lives , just like you, and might take offense.

This game is constantly evolving with some features added and tweaked with beta patches. Some aspects are also made obscure and are not finalized as yet. If you wish to test anything go right ahead and post your findings. Remember that different settings can change a result. If you want everything flow charted and constant manual updates preformed by a small software developer then you should email code force directly with your concerns.

have fun playing...




< Message edited by pipewrench -- 9/14/2012 3:17:58 AM >

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RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** - 9/15/2012 12:36:49 AM   
pumkinfacer22

 

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so I understand somewhat you found out about manufacturing..

**I noticed the Pre-made Large space ports use 4-6 Plants.. but you are surely saying i should change this to just 1 plant of each correct??


one of the parts i am still a little confused with is "capacity at 45000 then each... they will build components in that field totalling 450 size"

can you give me a small example showing that if possible.

450 size means the amount of components?

< Message edited by pumkinfacer22 -- 9/15/2012 12:38:06 AM >

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RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** - 9/15/2012 12:31:42 PM   
feelotraveller


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How you want to play the game is entirely up to you.  You asked the question of how many plants you need for construction yards.  I have given you the best answer I can.  In certain circumstances you may well be able to get full build speed for say 60 yards with only one plant of each type.  My answer is deliberately conservative and is based on maintaining maximum build speed in all practical situations that I could envisage.  It turned out that having all private ships building was the limit case since they have little or no weapons or armour.  I assumed that they had none and hence that the weapons plant was idling.

Whether you want to do this, or use the standard designs, or be a Haakon , is another question which I can't answer.

450 means the total size of the components.

Standard fuel cells have a size of 6.  Your hi tech plant of 45000 capacity (tech level 3, the first upgrade to the plant) will produce 75 standard fuel cells in a six day period if it is only building fuel cells.  If it is building only passenger compartments (size 10) then it will manufacture 45.

To follow the example through - if you have 30 yards at this tech level of yard construction they will potentially add 90 components in this same time period.  (They may add less, for instance when a design has a number of components that is not divisible by 3 - in this example, since the yard can add 3 components per time period - on the final period for the build they will add one or two less.  This is a hard to quantify factor and I have disregarded it.  My final conclusion is very deliberately quite conservative.)

Personally I think that this mechanism is elegant and it was quite a joy to uncover.  However I think the manufacturing plants are about 10 times to quick, since I like games within games.  As it is one plant of each type is all that I have ever required.  If they were ten times less potent there could be some decisions involved with how many to use.  Unfortunately (at least for me ) it seems that Codeforce do not share this opinion.  Oh well.

(in reply to pumkinfacer22)
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RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** - 9/16/2012 1:19:57 AM   
pumkinfacer22

 

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alright well.. i think it's hilarious that codeforce hasnt' responded to you about that but im sure they are "busy" ..... ... ....

I will however probably now make all my custom ports with only 1 Plant each of (W,E,H)... and probably 10-15 yards..

I appreciate you explaining the manufacturing.. I do find it odd that the pre-built designs have like 4 plants each in large port.. but what you say makes sense so ill go with 1 plant from now on...



< Message edited by pumkinfacer22 -- 9/16/2012 1:32:50 AM >

(in reply to feelotraveller)
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RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** - 9/16/2012 1:23:33 AM   
feelotraveller


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Yes I find it a bad form that the pre-built designs just add a maintenance drag on unsuspecting players.  The 'AI' will always be unsuspecting...

(in reply to pumkinfacer22)
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RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** - 9/16/2012 10:27:31 AM   
Bingeling

 

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The AI drags around too many troops and ships, don't know how to deploy them in the best sense.

The AI have little clue how to run an efficient war, spend too much time refueling. They are not able to with a decent force send 4 transports to 4 new colonies, grab them, while their main force grabs a proper colony or two.

The AI does not have proper objectives in their wars. They don't force a peace with one part if stuck with multiple enemies.

The AI builds way to many resupply ships, and puts them in places where they are of little use.

The AI fails to optimize ship designs to available build sizes properly.

And yet... If the human player keeps away (rule in absentia), the AI will always win.


(in reply to feelotraveller)
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RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** - 9/16/2012 1:16:37 PM   
feelotraveller


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Totally agree with your comments.  But I'm just picking off the low hanging fruit. 

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RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** - 5/31/2014 12:51:38 AM   
warzer

 

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So I recently started reading these guides since universal is out and since the game does change over time. Is this still valid? 1 plant each type per 30 construction yards? I heard/read somewhere it was 1p for 3yards. I much prefer your conclusion if it continues to be true.

(in reply to feelotraveller)
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RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** - 5/31/2014 1:53:53 AM   
Spidey


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I don't know the truth, but I tend to go for one plant per 12-15 yards and I haven't noticed any bottleneck issues. This adds up to 2 plants on my large port designs that have, incidentally, 24-30 yards. But they're supposed to be big and expensive so I don't really mind having a "massive" two of each plant on them.


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RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** - 5/31/2014 7:42:26 AM   
Fleshbits

 

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Correct me if wrong, but can't you simply keep total research capacity a smidge above actual output (including bonuses) in your research screen and forget math for the most optimal situation?
If it is lower, build more labs.
If it is higher don't.
Pretty simple?

(in reply to Spidey)
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RE: Research and Manufacturing 300k W:300k E:**H:** - 5/31/2014 11:12:08 AM   
Spidey


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You don't even need that much, Fleshbits. You just need the sum of your Total Research Capacity to equal or surpass your Total Empire Research Potential. The output is what happens when your actual output has been processed and afforded various bonus multipliers.

For example, in my current game my potential is 753. My capacity is 500k in each, since I'm cheap enough to throw one of each lab on my civilian mining bases, giving me a combinedc total research capacity of 1500. And that's a dramatic overkill, really, but the civilians are paying for it so who cares? But here's the thing, my Actual Output (including bonuses) is 643k weaps, 933k energy, and 717k high tech. So if I were to do it your way, I'd still need to add almost 800k research capacity, which would be a right pain in the ass.

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