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Why is the Russian front so popular?

 
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Why is the Russian front so popular? - 9/11/2012 4:33:42 PM   
SapperAstro

 

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Always wondered about this...

I enjoy games based on the Russian Front as much as the next person, and don't mind the West Front either (44 - 45).

However, I am a bit confused as to why the other front don't seem to garner much interest. It seems there is a descending order of preference, being:

1) Russian Front
2) West Front (44 - 45)
3) Italy/Africa(Western desert and Tunisia)
4) The Rest.

Among the rest, the Pacific seems to grab some attention, with the rest relegated to the dustbin.

Why is that?

Conquest of the Aegean for example. Some great scenarios with excellent battles, yet from everything I have read, largely skipped over by many due to the theatre of operations.

The initial campaigns of WW2 also get little love (Poland, France 1940, etc), the Far East gets nothing (Malaya campaign, Burma, New Guinea, etc), China 37 - 45...yeah right, Spanish Civil War...zippo...Finnish winter war, Norway, etc, etc...

Many of these operations and theatres could have gone either way, with many interesting variants that were a whisker away from actually happening, so the scope for campaigns and scenarios are almost endless...

So many other areas for wargames, yet it seems many are not at all interested to experience these new theatres. I can understand companies steering clear of them unfortunately, but perhaps the people that create this mindset, the customers, can let me in on why they are not interested in something a little different? Something fresh in their wargaming?
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RE: Why is the Russian front so popular? - 9/11/2012 5:12:44 PM   
doomtrader


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I would say that the only succesfull WW2 game are those about Eastern Front (since 1941) and Western Front (since 1944), so the devs are making games which will sell.

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RE: Why is the Russian front so popular? - 9/11/2012 5:22:47 PM   
danlongman

 

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The Russo-German war is popular because it was the biggest asskicking contest ever.
And since the biggest market share is American both sides are evil but if they want
to be Nazis they can assuage their guilt (if any) by killin' commies. Yahoo!

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RE: Why is the Russian front so popular? - 9/11/2012 5:32:18 PM   
Max 86


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IMHO, the pacific theatre lacks coverage for two main reasons:

1. Game developers have a hard time making a complete Air-Sea-Land combat game which is required in that theatre. TOF, for example, does well on the ground and air but lacks a little on the naval side, WitP does a great job on the naval and air side but lacks a lot for ground combat. What would be ideal is to have a macro level game like WitP and once troops land on an island, zoom into a company level land combat game. I know, keep dreamin' pal. (Total War: Pacific Fury...I'm just sayin')

2. For land combat in the pacific the scale is so small, these islands were not very big and there really is no maneuvering involved, just land on one side of the island and don't stop fighting till you get to the other side! Also, developers in general are not doing too many games where ranged fire is used. For the scale required you would need company level units at the bigger end and squad / platoon at the smaller end. All which require ranged fire for accurate combat representation. This seems difficult to do for some reason today.

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RE: Why is the Russian front so popular? - 9/11/2012 7:00:55 PM   
Perturabo


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Ranged fire?

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RE: Why is the Russian front so popular? - 9/11/2012 7:06:11 PM   
Max 86


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

Ranged fire?


I meant a game where the two units are not adjacent to one another and fire small / medium arms over a range of hexes.


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RE: Why is the Russian front so popular? - 9/11/2012 7:24:33 PM   
shunwick


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TOAW III has it all of course. The only weakness is naval campaigns. So no truly great entire Pacific War scenario because of that. But as for the rest yes everything on the initial post and more.

< Message edited by shunwick -- 9/11/2012 7:27:49 PM >


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RE: Why is the Russian front so popular? - 9/11/2012 7:31:32 PM   
wodin


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Russian front. Two armies at the pinnacle of their power at some point during the conflict. Lots and lots of battles, covers a long period of the war so lots of equipment to pay around with.

nearly all of infamous German units played a part at some point.

For me West front is the most boring theater yet game wise will sell the most units.

I expect COTA sales (though my favourite Panther game) where far less than HTTR or BFTB. Just the way it is. All developers want to make money and less popular theaters just don't sell enough units. For starters you'd be lucky a publisher will say yes to a game lets say set in the Balkans during WW2. I think they will say yes to less popular theatres if you've already got a winning engine like COTA. If not they will say look to the West front or Russian Front otherwise it wont sell enough and probably wont take your game on.

Now a publisher like HPS can churn out new SB titles covering lesser known conflicts as few resources are spent on them as it's mainly a few new rules and new maps\sceanrios and OOB's.

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RE: Why is the Russian front so popular? - 9/11/2012 7:40:03 PM   
Josh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: danlongman

The Russo-German war is popular because it was the biggest asskicking contest ever.
And since the biggest market share is American both sides are evil but if they want
to be Nazis they can assuage their guilt (if any) by killin' commies. Yahoo!


I think my eloquent friend here is spot on.

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RE: Why is the Russian front so popular? - 9/11/2012 11:35:47 PM   
Hertston


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SapperAstro

Conquest of the Aegean for example. Some great scenarios with excellent battles, yet from everything I have read, largely skipped over by many due to the theatre of operations.


No Americans in it.

quote:

The initial campaigns of WW2 also get little love (Poland, France 1940, etc)


Ditto.

The Eastern Front is rather different. I think it's two things, firstly a vastly expanded market in Eastern Europe and Russia these days and, in the West, it's still a reaction by wargamers to the way in which the Eastern Front was pretty much ignored in popular culture (if not serious military history) while many of us were growing up. The Pacific isn't too badly represented IMHO.

Overall, though, it says something that there are games covering just about every theatre, even if not many.








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Post #: 10
RE: Why is the Russian front so popular? - 9/11/2012 11:41:44 PM   
parusski


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Easy, I fought and survived there.

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RE: Why is the Russian front so popular? - 9/12/2012 12:32:09 AM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

I would say that the only succesfull WW2 game are those about Eastern Front (since 1941) and Western Front (since 1944), so the devs are making games which will sell.


That's why there are so many remakes and sequels to successful movies, even if they don't always succeed as did the original, the studios think they will still sell.

And didn't they just make another 3D sequel to "Resident Evil"?

Unlike the West, the War in the East was a "war of annihilation," although I have yet to see a "take no prisoners" option, or worse coded into a game.

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RE: Why is the Russian front so popular? - 9/12/2012 12:32:14 AM   
planner 3

 

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Eastern Front....Big Iron machines.
Western Front..." " "
Pacific Front5....Not too many Big Iron Machines
Chinese/Russians..Artillery and bodies

Lets face it the majority of Gammers, young and old, prefer Big Iron Machines and room to manuver, wouldn't you say ? hey ?

(above comments do not apply to RTS types)

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RE: Why is the Russian front so popular? - 9/12/2012 1:45:28 AM   
Perturabo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

The Eastern Front is rather different. I think it's two things, firstly a vastly expanded market in Eastern Europe and Russia these days

What vastly expanded market? With current pricing policies of wargame developers, they are very small markets as in Eastern Europe buying games costs significantly more work than in the West.
In Poland buying War in the East would cost 42 hours of work (minimal hourly wages) in contrast to about 12 hours of work in USA (which already produced lots of complaints - generally, in Poland most normal games published here already have off-putting starting prices of about 12-20 hours of work - but at least they tend to drop with time, so people in the social category that would buy 40$-50$ games in USA can play something too) with cost getting more and more ridiculously high the further East it gets. Why would any sane person spend a week or more of work on a computer game?

Also, I wouldn't assume that people there would be interested solely in Eastern Front just because they are Eastern Europeans.

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RE: Why is the Russian front so popular? - 9/12/2012 3:17:37 AM   
Queeg


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Why is the Eastern Front so popular?

Because it allows people who otherwise might feel guilty playing as Hitler to fight Stalin. And vice versa.

< Message edited by Queeg -- 9/12/2012 3:19:31 AM >

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RE: Why is the Russian front so popular? - 9/12/2012 6:08:28 AM   
flanyboy

 

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Also consider this. For a nation of 100 Million+ people the war between Germany and Russia hold basically the same place in history as the American Civil War does in American history. The Russo-German war was while not a civil war as important an event as there ever was. It was this great and epic struggle for survival and in public culture is the same as our Civil War. You could argue Germany has a similar view of the war as the South does of the Civil War. I'm not comparing the evil dictators here just the place that the conflict takes in the public memory. I also think Germans can have a sort of lost cause mentality when remembering this war and its easier to look east because while Hitler was evil so too was Stalin.

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RE: Why is the Russian front so popular? - 9/12/2012 8:39:26 AM   
Alan Sharif

 

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I must confess I find it a bit of a puzzle. I LOVE the Russian Front/Great Patriotic War, but am interested in WW2, not just the East. I would buy a land game on any front and love seeing some of the less represented fronts gamed, but wish it would happen more often.

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RE: Why is the Russian front so popular? - 9/12/2012 1:16:42 PM   
Jim D Burns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston
in the West, it's still a reaction by wargamers to the way in which the Eastern Front was pretty much ignored in popular culture (if not serious military history) while many of us were growing up.


That was probably more a symptom of the Cold War than an intentional slight or general ignorance on the part of western historians. It’s pretty hard to study something when all the historical documents are locked inside a closed country buried deep in their classified archives somewhere.

In those days there was no internet, you had to actually go to the source to dig through mounds of documents to research the data you might need and the paranoid communist culture would never have permitted ‘western imperialists’ to lay their hands on their beloved archives.

It’s a shame really as the Russian people deserve a great place in history for the monumental struggle they endured. But their own culture is more to blame than any kind of western prejudice against them for the lack of attention to detail their part in the war has been given over the past 60+ years. Modern historians are starting to make a difference now though, so hopefully the record can be corrected over time.

Jim


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RE: Why is the Russian front so popular? - 9/12/2012 2:21:25 PM   
Max 86


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I don't agree with the nazi guilt - evil dictator analogy. I personally feel no such thing. I like playing the US, Germans and Russian sides. Hardly ever play the Commonwealth or Japanese.

I think it has to do more with offensive actions in general. Playing defense sucks especially against an AI opponent. A lot of wargamers only play against the AI so that is a bigger factor than you might think at first.

I like playing as the US / Russia pushing the Germans back across Europe as much as I enjoy playing Germany in many of their offensive campaigns. Another fun thing about playing the Germans is that you get to see all the other nations OOBs as you have to take on everybody at one time or another.

And like planner 3 said, "Big Iron Machines and room to manuver". thats what its all about.

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RE: Why is the Russian front so popular? - 9/12/2012 7:42:45 PM   
Perturabo


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To be honest, I usually like playing the bad guys the most. Especially in games where it includes shooting civilians.

My dream game would be a real time simulation game set in the Command & Conquer universe where one commands Nod units or a real time simulation game set in Wh40k universe where one commands Night Lords or Iron Warriors units.

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RE: Why is the Russian front so popular? - 9/12/2012 10:11:03 PM   
Lützow


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quote:

ORIGINAL: flanyboy

Also consider this. For a nation of 100 Million+ people the war between Germany and Russia hold basically the same place in history as the American Civil War does in American history. The Russo-German war was while not a civil war as important an event as there ever was. It was this great and epic struggle for survival and in public culture is the same as our Civil War. You could argue Germany has a similar view of the war as the South does of the Civil War.


QFT

Operation Barbarossa is for Germans, what ACW was for the South. With the difference that we got first-hand narratives from our relatives.

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RE: Why is the Russian front so popular? - 9/12/2012 10:31:50 PM   
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As has been touched on before, I think the Russian Front is so popular because it is, as far as land combat is concerned, the mother of all battles (as someone once said).

If you want massive fleets go for the Pacific War*, if you want lots of army groups, armies, divisions, tanks and artillery + huge air forces all in one place - try the Soviet Union 1941-45

* Sadly no one to my knowledge has ever done a naval warfare game based on the Mediterranean. That is such a shame because there are some great ships to be played - British, Italian, French and US (+ u-boats) and the outcome - unlike the Pacific War, should never be a foregone conclusion.

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RE: Why is the Russian front so popular? - 9/13/2012 3:04:12 PM   
Neilster


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Hopefully Matrix World in Flames will satisfy a lot of people. I love the "Total War" aspect of the board game because you get to control production, all strategic decisions and the naval model is excellent.

The Panther guys will eventually get around to doing a lot of campaigns too, although I'd love to see a more operational level version of their command and control system too.

Cheers, Neilster

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RE: Why is the Russian front so popular? - 9/13/2012 4:51:28 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

As has been touched on before, I think the Russian Front is so popular because it is, as far as land combat is concerned, the mother of all battles (as someone once said).

If you want massive fleets go for the Pacific War*, if you want lots of army groups, armies, divisions, tanks and artillery + huge air forces all in one place - try the Soviet Union 1941-45

* Sadly no one to my knowledge has ever done a naval warfare game based on the Mediterranean. That is such a shame because there are some great ships to be played - British, Italian, French and US (+ u-boats) and the outcome - unlike the Pacific War, should never be a foregone conclusion.


I concur with warspite1. I would love a full-throated WWII Med. wargame and think it would be fascinating to play.

Personally, I don't care that much for the carnage of the Eastern Front. In spite of its size, it's just not at the forefront of my wargaming mind. Then again, I don't care much for some of the other titanic land struggles that are gamed (e.g., US Civil War). So, I reject the assumption of the OP for my personal tastes. The Russian front isn't 'all that' for me and I have studiously ignored titles that dealt with it.

Does anyone have a top-notch First World War (Western Front) circa 1917-1918 game that they'd recommend? It might be interesting to see how well the static front was emulated in modern computer games.

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RE: Why is the Russian front so popular? - 9/13/2012 5:23:32 PM   
SuluSea


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My next purchase will be a naval based game not named Carriers at War because I have little doubt that will be some lipstick and powder added to the game I already paid a high price for.

I've bought so many ww2 land war games that collect dust it's incredible. I got sucked into Eagle Day, WITE & BFTB only one of them I've gotten any kind of playtime on. I bought Panzer Corps on sale but the deal was so good I don't look at it as a loss.




< Message edited by SuluSea -- 9/13/2012 5:25:03 PM >


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RE: Why is the Russian front so popular? - 9/13/2012 6:38:19 PM   
Treale


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

My next purchase will be a naval based game not named Carriers at War because I have little doubt that will be some lipstick and powder added to the game I already paid a high price for.

I've bought so many ww2 land war games that collect dust it's incredible. I got sucked into Eagle Day, WITE & BFTB only one of them I've gotten any kind of playtime on. I bought Panzer Corps on sale but the deal was so good I don't look at it as a loss.





To me a great naval game would be one based on an old Avalon Hill title that I think was called Victory in the Pacific?

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RE: Why is the Russian front so popular? - 9/13/2012 6:53:37 PM   
shunwick


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

As has been touched on before, I think the Russian Front is so popular because it is, as far as land combat is concerned, the mother of all battles (as someone once said).

If you want massive fleets go for the Pacific War*, if you want lots of army groups, armies, divisions, tanks and artillery + huge air forces all in one place - try the Soviet Union 1941-45

* Sadly no one to my knowledge has ever done a naval warfare game based on the Mediterranean. That is such a shame because there are some great ships to be played - British, Italian, French and US (+ u-boats) and the outcome - unlike the Pacific War, should never be a foregone conclusion.


warspite1,

Harpoon has a WW II database and Mediterranean scenarios for it I believe. It is long time since I played Harpoon though. A pooner might give you a better answer.

Best wishes,
Steve

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RE: Why is the Russian front so popular? - 9/14/2012 2:06:44 AM   
Titanwarrior89


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What Wodin said....same here.
quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Russian front. Two armies at the pinnacle of their power at some point during the conflict. Lots and lots of battles, covers a long period of the war so lots of equipment to pay around with.

nearly all of infamous German units played a part at some point.

For me West front is the most boring theater yet game wise will sell the most units.

I expect COTA sales (though my favourite Panther game) where far less than HTTR or BFTB. Just the way it is. All developers want to make money and less popular theaters just don't sell enough units. For starters you'd be lucky a publisher will say yes to a game lets say set in the Balkans during WW2. I think they will say yes to less popular theatres if you've already got a winning engine like COTA. If not they will say look to the West front or Russian Front otherwise it wont sell enough and probably wont take your game on.

Now a publisher like HPS can churn out new SB titles covering lesser known conflicts as few resources are spent on them as it's mainly a few new rules and new maps\sceanrios and OOB's.



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RE: Why is the Russian front so popular? - 9/15/2012 4:53:21 AM   
flanyboy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: shunwick


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

As has been touched on before, I think the Russian Front is so popular because it is, as far as land combat is concerned, the mother of all battles (as someone once said).

If you want massive fleets go for the Pacific War*, if you want lots of army groups, armies, divisions, tanks and artillery + huge air forces all in one place - try the Soviet Union 1941-45

* Sadly no one to my knowledge has ever done a naval warfare game based on the Mediterranean. That is such a shame because there are some great ships to be played - British, Italian, French and US (+ u-boats) and the outcome - unlike the Pacific War, should never be a foregone conclusion.


warspite1,

Harpoon has a WW II database and Mediterranean scenarios for it I believe. It is long time since I played Harpoon though. A pooner might give you a better answer.

Best wishes,
Steve

Great Naval Battles was a fun naval game simulating the naval war in the north Atlantic. Very old but in my eyes a classic.

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Post #: 29
RE: Why is the Russian front so popular? - 9/16/2012 1:13:02 AM   
Rtwfreak

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

I would say that the only succesfull WW2 game are those about Eastern Front (since 1941) and Western Front (since 1944), so the devs are making games which will sell.


I would say because those are the most published movies and documentaries of WW2 and thus more popular and drawing of interest. I know it's what drew me into wargaming after I saw movies like "The Dirty Dozen" and "In Harms Way" and "Midway" and "The Guns of Navaronne", Tv series like "Combat" and "The Rat Patrol". These are why I have more interest in the Western Front, the Pacific American Theater and Africa Korps and not much interest at all in the Russian front or Eastern Theater as I never saw many movies tv shows on that theater except maybe "The Iron Cross" and I only saw that one just recently after 30 years of gaming. I have to say though M.A.S.H. didn't intice me to want to play Korean wargames.

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