Matrix Games Forums

War in the West gets its first update!Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm version 2.08 is now available!Command gets huge update!Order of Battle: Pacific Featured on Weekly Streaming SessionA new fight for Battle Academy!Buzz Aldrin's Space Program Manager is out for Mac!The definitive wargame of the Western Front is out now! War in the West gets teaser trailer and Twitch Stream!New Preview AAR for War in the West!War in the West Manual preview
Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222)

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> After Action Reports >> RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 4 [5]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) - 9/21/2012 12:19:47 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 2410
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline
And here lies the problem with this game from day one. In order to try and balance things they muck around with replacement rates (which should be set in stone) rather than fix a combat/logistics model that is out of whack.

_____________________________

'Deus le Volt!'
------------------

(in reply to Walloc)
Post #: 121
RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) - 9/21/2012 7:45:18 AM   
Speedy

 

Posts: 14382
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline
Saper has accepted my Surrender so that's that.

M60: I would have lost the following ARM's IF I focussed on Moscow evac and managed to get all of that out:

Stalino - 29
Kramatorskaya - 3
Makeevka - 3
Gorlovka - 3
Taganrog - 2
Voroshilov - 3
Kharkov - 4
Kursk - 2
Kaluga - 8
Tula - 25
Kalinin - 3

= 85

That's me done for now then folks. Ciao.

_____________________________

WitE Tester
BTR/BoB Tester

(in reply to Walloc)
Post #: 122
RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) - 9/21/2012 10:57:17 AM   
janh

 

Posts: 1227
Joined: 6/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy
Disagree. It's not about throwing the towel in because it's not working well. Think about it: I'll be down to 3.7M men once the pockets are gone.

If I retreat I'll lose 80 x ARM, 5 x Vehicle (+ HI) this is if I focus just on evac'ing Moscow AND IF I manage to fully evac knowing there's a massive gap where AGN Panzers can race towards Moscow....You want me to play knowing it will be a no hope and no chance of victory game that will be even more lopsided than the Kamil game?

If I don't run I'll lose another 1-1.5M me + about 1/2 the Industry above.....

Surely you can see that will snowball?


Bummer, but all you say sounds just plainly right. It is unlikely that you'll gain much in the following years given how 41 would end for you.

It is only turn 9 or 10 (8/14), you'll be down to 3.7M men. And note that the SHC has so many logistic and command elements that are manpower hogs, that of those 3.7M not that many are actually in fighting formations (call that poorer C&C, too, Heliodrius). In this game, the balance space in the middle where things move evenly and slowly is tiny, and your losses in men and terrain would quite surely accelerate as you are unlikely to stop him with what you have left. I would expect that you would be below 3.5M come December, and him to have secured at least a line from Chereropets, Gorki, Voronesh to Rostov, if not even further (if railroad and supply allows it).

There won*t be a blizzard offensive worth the name, and how summer 42 would go... not nice, I would expect. You'd make a punching ball for another 2 years, and by 45 maybe have recovered Minsk, but probably not made the German border.

And yes, SHC should be able to absorb such losses and still field some 5M men...



< Message edited by janh -- 9/21/2012 10:59:22 AM >

(in reply to Speedy)
Post #: 123
RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) - 9/21/2012 11:58:10 AM   
Speedy

 

Posts: 14382
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline
Yup. That's a pretty accurate summary IMO. People have to understand the difference between throwing your 'toys out of the pram' and being a pragmatic realist and understanding when to call it quits.

_____________________________

WitE Tester
BTR/BoB Tester

(in reply to janh)
Post #: 124
RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) - 9/21/2012 12:45:25 PM   
terje439


Posts: 6217
Joined: 3/28/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy
People have to understand the difference between throwing your 'toys out of the pram' and being a pragmatic realist and understanding when to call it quits.


Nevah!
Sorry to see this game end, and hope you get back to the game after a little while.

Terje

_____________________________

"Hun skal torpederes!" - Birger Eriksen

("She is to be torpedoed!")

(in reply to Speedy)
Post #: 125
RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) - 9/21/2012 12:58:56 PM   
Speedy

 

Posts: 14382
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline
Thanks. I'm sure I will. Been around here for years and almost always come back to most of the Matrix Games I've bought....

_____________________________

WitE Tester
BTR/BoB Tester

(in reply to terje439)
Post #: 126
RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) - 9/21/2012 7:12:32 PM   
randallw

 

Posts: 1979
Joined: 9/2/2010
Status: offline
Tula is one of the tougher places to evacuate; it eats up almost all ( or not just 'almost' ) the rail capacity of one turn.

(in reply to Speedy)
Post #: 127
RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) - 9/21/2012 8:40:58 PM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 6398
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

OOB:

I'll lose 540,000 men in these pockets (including LG (425,000 excl LG).....

If I hear anymore stuff from Pelton saying the Axis are nerfed in 41 he's gonna get it

All these units that have encircled mine are near the end of their supply columns (30-40 SP's)...you wouldn't have thought it.

Problem I have now is I have nowhere to run (without losing VITAL industry) which means either way I'm screwed. If I stay long enough to evac it I'll have no army as it can't fight, attack or move more than 10 miles a day without needing to lay down. If I run I won't have the industry to be able to fight back in later years anyway.



I did not have any problem evacing out industry in my game as SHC and same goes for MT in his dozen or so as SHC.

You simply fought forward which is impossible under the current rulesets for SHC and the same goes for GHC tring to hold the lines during blizzard you will simply get your head handed to you on a plate.

As SHC simply rail a bunch of units to north then work lines north to south. From Tula souht just fall back behind rivers and have a 3 deep checker board with a 3 hex gap between german lines and 1st line of checker board.

Its easy even a 100% newbie like me can hold Moscow/rail out everything other then 35 arm and have close to a 5 million man army by blizzard.

Flaviusx/MT and TDV have figured out how to hold Leningrad most of the time vs skilled players.

2by3 needs to
1.Tweek manpower out put of SHC so the can fight forward
2.Nerf the blizzard
3. Have a turn by turn VP system so both sides do something other then run.

Then game would be less like ball room dancing and more like a death match.

_____________________________

GHC WitE 24 - 4 - 8
GHC WitW 0 - 0 - 0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Speedy)
Post #: 128
RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) - 9/21/2012 8:44:32 PM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 6398
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

And here lies the problem with this game from day one. In order to try and balance things they muck around with replacement rates (which should be set in stone) rather than fix a combat/logistics model that is out of whack.


Logistics is now basicly fine ( unless someone has found another exploit). Germans are tied to railheads now finally other then chaining which is easly kept under control.

Combat model is what needs fixing.

_____________________________

GHC WitE 24 - 4 - 8
GHC WitW 0 - 0 - 0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 129
RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) - 9/21/2012 8:45:55 PM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 6398
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
And yes Speedy the checker board is totally unrealistic

_____________________________

GHC WitE 24 - 4 - 8
GHC WitW 0 - 0 - 0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 130
RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) - 9/21/2012 9:26:11 PM   
Klydon


Posts: 2167
Joined: 11/28/2010
Status: offline
I think one of the keys for the SHC is to have a good industrial evac plan in place and stick to it. One of the first things is to realize you are going to lose some industry, but while you may lose a little, it isn't enough to cripple you. Flaviusx has expounded on the details of the plan (write off the most forward industry west of the Dnepr). I think one of the things that got Speedy into trouble from what I saw is he didn't have a real organized plan when it came to evacuating industry and when Saper started advancing more quickly, Speedy got behind and as a result now has a lot of industry exposed he can't save.

I also agree on the manpower/reenforcement issues for the Russians. They should be more hardy than they seem to be in game right now in terms of being able to take a pounding and still have enough to keep going. You do anything like historical losses and they are just toast.

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 131
RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) - 9/21/2012 9:39:46 PM   
Schmart

 

Posts: 657
Joined: 9/13/2010
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
2by3 needs to
1.Tweek manpower out put of SHC so the can fight forward


My ears are bleeding. Pelton is actually proposing that Russian abilities should be increased!?

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 132
RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) - 9/21/2012 9:48:21 PM   
Schmart

 

Posts: 657
Joined: 9/13/2010
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon
I also agree on the manpower/reenforcement issues for the Russians. They should be more hardy than they seem to be in game right now in terms of being able to take a pounding and still have enough to keep going. You do anything like historical losses and they are just toast.


+1

I also think Russian C&C for 41-42 should effectively be nerfed: Cost to change leaders should be through the roof or APs received per turn should be minimal. As it is, it's way too easy to maximize Russian leadership in 41-42. A few well placed commanders should be possible, but it should mostly be at Comrade Stalin's whim (ie: executions or all expenses paid vacations to the gulag) that changes commanders.

(in reply to Klydon)
Post #: 133
RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) - 9/21/2012 10:21:26 PM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 6398
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Schmart


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
2by3 needs to
1.Tweek manpower out put of SHC so the can fight forward


My ears are bleeding. Pelton is actually proposing that Russian abilities should be increased!?



I have been for the last 6 hmm 9 months, but coupled with other clear things that need to also be nerfed as they are just plainly way to exploitable

< Message edited by Pelton -- 9/21/2012 10:23:01 PM >


_____________________________

GHC WitE 24 - 4 - 8
GHC WitW 0 - 0 - 0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Schmart)
Post #: 134
RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) - 9/21/2012 10:30:13 PM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 6398
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
I beleive MT and myself felt most of this stuff was like candy when we first read the rules on release.

Things that should have been seen as clear exploits, 2by3 spent months and months tweaking.

Hopefully witw is not as easly exploitable on release as wite has been and 2by3 does not have to spend over a yr tweaking things that dummies like me can mess with.

Do it right the first time so the player base stays put for tWiE.

I am very very greatfull that GG has put as much time into these games as they are 2000% better then anything esle out there.

GG



_____________________________

GHC WitE 24 - 4 - 8
GHC WitW 0 - 0 - 0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 135
RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) - 9/21/2012 10:51:06 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 2410
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline
Yes WITE is the best PC east front game no question. But it needs work.

If you were to just ramp up Soviet replacements, players would still run. You need both things hand in hand. More or better troops AND a very strong disincentive to run away, severe game losing punishments for giving up too much real estate too fast. Then a real fight in summer 1941 would ensue.

_____________________________

'Deus le Volt!'
------------------

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 136
RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) - 9/21/2012 11:54:55 PM   
Schmart

 

Posts: 657
Joined: 9/13/2010
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Yes WITE is the best PC east front game no question. But it needs work.

If you were to just ramp up Soviet replacements, players would still run. You need both things hand in hand. More or better troops AND a very strong disincentive to run away, severe game losing punishments for giving up too much real estate too fast. Then a real fight in summer 1941 would ensue.


I wonder if leader executions could be tied to VPs. If the Russian runs, then there's a far greater chance (as history showed) that leaders were sacked/executed. So the Russian could run for the hills, but there'd be a pretty good chance that a leader like Zhukov (and others) would get 'relieved' of command. Even if not executed, it would put a major AP drain on the player to put leaders back in place.

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 137
RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) - 9/22/2012 1:46:37 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 2410
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline
Yes leader loss could work. Tarhunnas and I were working on some anti run house rules and leader executions were one of the penalties.

_____________________________

'Deus le Volt!'
------------------

(in reply to Schmart)
Post #: 138
RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) - 9/22/2012 2:15:36 AM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 6415
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline
If I knew the Red Army could fight forward and afford the losses, I would do so, rules or no rules. The reason I run (in the south anyways, not up north) is precisely because this isn't possible. Running away, for me anyways, is purely an artifact of the Lvov opener (people are still underestimating how much this is distorting the game) and the fragility of the replacement situation.







_____________________________

WitE Alpha Tester

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 139
RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) - 9/22/2012 3:49:48 AM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 6398
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

If I knew the Red Army could fight forward and afford the losses, I would do so, rules or no rules. The reason I run (in the south anyways, not up north) is precisely because this isn't possible. Running away, for me anyways, is purely an artifact of the Lvov opener (people are still underestimating how much this is distorting the game) and the fragility of the replacement situation.









You would fight forward we know, but most would just take the extra troops and send them up north. There would need to be something to give people a reason to fight forward other then there word heheh.

I am for and have been tweaking the lvov pocket, but there has to be a trade off or it will be impossible to get over rivers.

German chances are slim at this point for a min win after .13 patch.

_____________________________

GHC WitE 24 - 4 - 8
GHC WitW 0 - 0 - 0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 140
RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) - 9/22/2012 6:10:04 AM   
Harrybanana

 

Posts: 766
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline
I am currently in a game with Saper myself and accordingly have been closley following this game, his game with Kamil and his game with Mike29 (which Saper won some time ago). I was very fortunate in that my game was started earlier than any of the other games before Saper fully learned his stuff. I employed the same type of fighting withdrawl defense that Taurannas did in his game with Micahel T and Speedy did in this game. It worked very well for me in our game; so well in fact that it is now nearing the end of summer 43 and my lead units are about half way between Warsaw and Berlin. I have told Saper that I will accept his surrender, but he insists on fighting to the bitter end.

I am telling you this not because I am looking for a pat on the back, but because I agree (god forgive me) with something Pelton said long ago. Namely that this type of forward defense that many Soviet players (even the good ones like Tarhaunnas) use successfullyagainst most German players, just won't work against the really skilled players. Saper has already told me that he wants a rematch when our current game is finished. I know that to beat him in our rematch I will have to change my defensive style. I know this, but at the same time I fear that I will not be able to make the adjustment. I am just too set in my ways. But if I don't adjust it may be a very long war for me as I would feel honour bound to play the game to the bitter end.





< Message edited by Harrybanana -- 9/22/2012 6:12:21 AM >

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 141
RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) - 9/22/2012 11:14:23 AM   
janh

 

Posts: 1227
Joined: 6/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Schmart
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
2by3 needs to 1.Tweek manpower out put of SHC so the can fight forward

My ears are bleeding. Pelton is actually proposing that Russian abilities should be increased!?


Yes, there was good hints of him changing his opinion in other posts over the past few weeks. Seems like switching sides and experiencing the SHC challenge live made some impact...

(in reply to Schmart)
Post #: 142
RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) - 9/22/2012 11:37:31 AM   
janh

 

Posts: 1227
Joined: 6/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
If I knew the Red Army could fight forward and afford the losses, I would do so, rules or no rules. The reason I run (in the south anyways, not up north) is precisely because this isn't possible. Running away, for me anyways, is purely an artifact of the Lvov opener (people are still underestimating how much this is distorting the game) and the fragility of the replacement situation.

You would fight forward we know, but most would just take the extra troops and send them up north. There would need to be something to give people a reason to fight forward other then there word heheh.

I am for and have been tweaking the lvov pocket, but there has to be a trade off or it will be impossible to get over rivers.


So far we have seen a few games, where SHC fell back or was forcefully pushed back too far East, loosing LG, Moscow, Voronesh, Rostov and a lot more up to the Saransk area and Chererovpets. Yet I can't remember any SHC player that was at this line by late 42 or still in 43 getting anywhere close to Berlin again, aka. of the ongoing AARs there is indication that they won't be fast enough (e.g. Tulius or Terje's AARs) -- independent of whether he retreated so far because SHC got trashed (and weak/er after), or voluntarily (in which case SHC should be much stronger, and more likely to regain something).

With a German player skilled and disciplined on the defense, making no major mistakes and knowing when to switch to a holding stance, the going for in 43-45 is going to be slow. No 10 hex deep breakthrus with pockets like Axis in 41, maybe at best now and then a 3-4 hex breakthru or a 1-2 hex pocket. It still looks like retreating beyond the line where terrain would allow fighting (Landbridge, Pskov, Vyasma-Rshev...) is likely to surrendering any chance of a late victory. So does it really need more rules except the knowledge that every hex lost in 41-42 will be much much harder to regain after?

I concur that upping the manpower pools, either by an injection at the game start, or by the multiplier would be one thing. Yet without increasing the combat effectiveness, aka morale/experience, or respectively how the latter parameters figure in the combat engine, you'd only set up more bowling pins. But not get to the kind of fighting to death, counterattacking, desperately defending rivers etc. all of us probably would prefer. My impression with the combat engine is that forces with a strong disparity often lead to results, in which one side losses 100s- some 3000-400s men, but the opponent losses 0 (aside from FoW) -- like in the case of highly experiences Axis divisions fighting off a SHC infantry attack with low experience units. It rather expect the defender to loose a few dozen to 100 men disabled as well, which in effect would rate the SHC more combat worthy, increase Axis losses/attrition and make fighting tougher, and progress slower/costlier.

Maybe that would be better than to increase morale/experience, because that carries the risk that Axis may get stuck with some SHC moves: e.g. if you'd forgo Lvov voluntarily, and wanted to fight it out with AGS, you might well see the SHC withdraw behind the Djenpr or run all the way to Stalino/Kursk (since this open terrain would by the books not be a wise choice to contest), and just as presently transfer all the spare forces to LG and Moscow -- Axis would probably still overrun the south, but might not even get near LG or Moscow. You would sort of have to require an SHC player to loose two huge 700k+ pockets like Kiev and Wjasma-Brjansk (and perhaps waste a few 100k men and tanks in futile counterattacks), else the balance may have shifted to far toward SHC. The ground to get a campaign that is fluid and reaches a high-water mark at LG-Moscow-Rostov, where both sides have some chance to either take or hold it, appears very small for this war.


(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 143
RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) - 9/22/2012 2:13:19 PM   
Klydon


Posts: 2167
Joined: 11/28/2010
Status: offline
Man, all this credit for Pelton! Who would have thought it possible.

Seriously guys, you can go back and read his other posts LOOOONNNGGG before he ever tried the SHC and he was making suggestions for the Russian side from the German perspective that would have helped the Russians.

Pelton may or may not rightly deserve some of the wrath for his hyper posting over various points at times, but to say he has only recently just posted some suggestions for the Russian side isn't true either. He has a wealth of experience playing the game AND is active on the forums here. There are a lot of things he has come up with/exposed to help make the game better overall. I believe his goal is the same as many of us and that is the evolution of the game and game engine in a way that makes sense for both sides and provides a entertaining game for both sides.

He may not be everyone's cup of tea, but I do appreciate how much extra effort he has put into posting his AAR's and generally engaging on the forum with ideas, etc. (Although I cringe at times, hehe. ).

(in reply to janh)
Post #: 144
RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) - 9/22/2012 2:40:32 PM   
vandev

 

Posts: 147
Joined: 9/14/2011
Status: offline
This great AAR and the discussiion after Speedy gave up shows me again that in games as in life the true battlefield is the mind. When your opponent gives up, you have truly lost. A turn 9/10 surrender during one of the very black times for the SHC player is a failure of nerve. Yes losses are bad, yes you got a turn with a bunch of pockets, yes there does not seem like much to put in front of the very competent Axis attack, yes the future looks very bleak.....this is a psychological tough time for the SHC.

However, I look at the SHC and see plenty of inf div with a strength 3 or greater spread around the front (maybe all of them should be at Moscow). I see plenty low quality troops that can be ordered to die. For those who know old stories: the horse could die, the King could die or the horse could learn how to talk. A clever way to say bad things in the future only happen in the future not right now.....and things can change. I am not against giving up, but wait till Blizzard. There is alot you can learn in this very desperate situation and Saper deserves a chance to enjoy a great 41. You never know, he may actually make a mistake.

The difference between a good axis player and an average one is night and day. But then the same is true for the SHC and for anything. Even in this game, some retreats should have been made and some retreats by the SHC were more about fear. I read all about more experienced posters making conclusions about how tough it is for the SHC to win if too much bad stuff happens. It could all be true. However, better to say that after you have properly put your troops too the front and done everything possible to give you a chance for victory.

Too bad we are not talking what creative unit placements and tactics could retrieve this situation...maybe none but you have to try. You never know and there is alot to learn in trying.

Vandev

(in reply to janh)
Post #: 145
RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) - 9/22/2012 3:47:28 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 6415
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline
Vandev, this wasn't a "failure of nerve" but rather an attack of common sense. The game simply doesn't allow the Soviet Union to recover from this kind of situation and will rapidly snowball out of control. It's all about the numbers.

Speedy could have kept playing on until the inevitable German marginal victory in 1945. No point. In his shoes I would have also resigned. The main thing is to learn from mistakes and then do better next time, not to continue a bad game out of some misguided notion of manhood or keeping your nerve.

After literally watching dozens of games clear patterns emerge and it becomes very easy to predict how things will develop.



_____________________________

WitE Alpha Tester

(in reply to vandev)
Post #: 146
RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) - 9/22/2012 6:39:39 PM   
vandev

 

Posts: 147
Joined: 9/14/2011
Status: offline
Flaviusx, with the greatest respect, I have to disagree. You have much more experience in this game then I do and your judgements about trends and likely results I am sure are exactly right. I am not suggesting an investment of another 100 turns and countless hours in a fruitless fight. I am suggesting, however, that playing out the summer could be fun, exciting and fruitful for Speedy and a great read for the rest of us. There is alot too learn in how to react to disaster, even if you can't stave it off.

For example, what if the first thing speedy did each turn from here on out was make sure that there was a fort line behind the river that bisects Moscow from north to south end points being the major rivers. Initially, put single division shells with alot of digging support. By turn 14 or 15 when Saper is approaching make sure this line is stacked 2 high (3 if it can be attacked from 3 hexes) with brigades behind in reserve. Until this 10 or 12 hexes is dealt with, nothing else is done in the Soviet turn. Next, keep 4 or 5 hexes away from the front lines to prevent german infantry from attacking and retreat until 3 or 4 hexes west of moscow. Then stage a fighting retreat back to the final line referenced above.

In the south, every good division goes to moscow. Every one. Leave only the cv 1 and 2 units. Then give up what ever land you have too. In the north you could fighting foward in the better terrain but so what if you move back if you are pushed. Make it your goal to save moscow and sacrifice everything to that goal. Why does the soviet keep anything but a light screen between bransk and Kharkov. Alot of divisions can be harvested from there. Forget moving factories as you are going to surrender once mud hits anyway. You are not playing to win, you are playing to stop the fall of moscow before mud. If you can, you are a moral winner cause the situation now is really that bad. Another 8 turns, not much time and with a new attitude, could be a ton of fun. And as I said before, who knows? And yes I play Lotto every week(G).

I am not trying to criticize anyone, rather trying to point out that attidude and emotions are key to decision making and that when it is darkest some times you need to redefine success to find the light. This could be fun and informative.

Vandev

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 147
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 3 4 [5]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> After Action Reports >> RE: Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222) Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 4 [5]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.115