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Soviet Supply

 
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Soviet Supply - 9/10/2012 7:57:04 PM   
Keunert


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playing the soviets case blue full, 30th july i've seen a drop in supply. all my air units, tanks and half of the infantry has a yellow supply level. i did check and everythings seems ok: supply layer shows my army and front commands are within Stavka range, and bridges are unharmed. if possible hq's are positioned on train lines or roads.

does anybody know if this is normal?
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RE: Soviet Supply - 9/10/2012 8:09:44 PM   
Vic


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Maybe you have a naval fleet just returned to port? or a pocket just relieved? both can causes a large increase in supply requests.

best,
Vic

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RE: Soviet Supply - 9/10/2012 8:32:57 PM   
Keunert


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i believe i have also seen a very slow build up of artillery shells. is this related to the supply situation?
what is the effect of yellow supply on combat? i made a three or four sided attack with high readiness units and
both a Stavka and an army combat card with bad results. can supply hurt that much on offensive? i found nothing in the manual.

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RE: Soviet Supply - 9/10/2012 8:39:14 PM   
Vic


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Recovering readiness and stockpiles costs more supply. So if your experiencing supply shortages you should also consider avoiding readiness losses and using artillery.

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RE: Soviet Supply - 9/10/2012 8:46:06 PM   
Keunert


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thank you! what's the effect of low supply on attack and defence? is it the same for both?

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RE: Soviet Supply - 9/10/2012 10:40:16 PM   
LiquidSky


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What is your supply? You can see your supply level if you look at Stavka:

This shot taken from a July 24th turn of a Case Blue (long) game where the Soviets spent most of their time running instead of fighting.




Attachment (1)

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What's the sense of sending $2 million missiles to hit a $10 tent that's empty?

— President George W. Bush, Oval Office meeting, 13 September 2001.

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RE: Soviet Supply - 9/10/2012 10:45:09 PM   
LiquidSky


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Hmm...I wonder if you have to manage your supply as the soviets. Set some fronts as 'inactive' with 50% supply draw's. Stop using the Black Sea fleet excessively. Try not to bombard with artillery just because we have it. That sort of thing.

In my PBEM game as the Germans, I do look at my supply numbers at OKH every turn, and in general, spend a little less then what I take in. Occasionally I spend a little more. But then we are only up to late July. I will have to ask my opponent what his supply numbers are.

_____________________________

What's the sense of sending $2 million missiles to hit a $10 tent that's empty?

— President George W. Bush, Oval Office meeting, 13 September 2001.

(in reply to LiquidSky)
Post #: 7
RE: Soviet Supply - 9/10/2012 11:38:58 PM   
LiquidSky


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Just for fun, I Stavka (and therefore the entire Soviet Army) on 50% supply.

The turn after, the supply Stockpile rose to 8770, with the supply in being 13295 and the supply out being 6721.

That pretty much tells me that you have to manage your supply carefully as the Soviets.

_____________________________

What's the sense of sending $2 million missiles to hit a $10 tent that's empty?

— President George W. Bush, Oval Office meeting, 13 September 2001.

(in reply to LiquidSky)
Post #: 8
RE: Soviet Supply - 9/11/2012 1:16:31 AM   
LiquidSky


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To further the experiment, I attacked all along the front line with the Germans after the Russians have been sitting with 50% supply.

Combat was its usual bloodyness....I lost about 20k to the Russians 44k.

The Supply Out rose to 8000...probably because the internal stocks of the units I attacked with the germans wanted to be replenished.

But with two turns at 50%, the Russian Stockpile is now at 10k....



When I move the supply back up to 100% for everyone, it becomes

12600 in, and 16800 out.

Sooooo....areas like the Caucaus need to be put on low supply since they arent in contact with the enemy.

Area's along the front line, where you think you can get away with it, have to go on low supply. In dire emergency, you can put the whole front on low supply, but you will have to raise it again, before your units exhaust their supply.



_____________________________

What's the sense of sending $2 million missiles to hit a $10 tent that's empty?

— President George W. Bush, Oval Office meeting, 13 September 2001.

(in reply to LiquidSky)
Post #: 9
RE: Soviet Supply - 9/12/2012 7:31:27 AM   
jonny211

 

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I must admit I'd not looked properly at the supply side of the game, just moving the pretty counters around. Many thanks for the info.

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RE: Soviet Supply - 9/15/2012 6:55:33 AM   
Keunert


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thanks Liquid. the problem is only there are almost no units out of contact with the ennemy. but i do watch now my artillery use and fleet use.
low supply occured after six turns of running and then finally having a pocket... the constant attacking of the germans made so many units low on readiness that probably
this caused supply go down.

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RE: Soviet Supply - 9/15/2012 5:50:32 PM   
LiquidSky


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I notice that as the Axis...they never seem to suffer from any supply issues. although my oil is dropping everyturn.

_____________________________

What's the sense of sending $2 million missiles to hit a $10 tent that's empty?

— President George W. Bush, Oval Office meeting, 13 September 2001.

(in reply to Keunert)
Post #: 12
RE: Soviet Supply - 9/24/2012 6:21:56 AM   
LiquidSky


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Okay...I think Sevastopol has a problem with supply. I (Axis) transferred a lot of aircraft down in the Crimea...with no stacking problems. I notice a nice long trail of numbers coming from the supply port to Sevastopol with numbers ranging from 15 all the way up to 40. My opponent is complaining he has no action points. I am using no boats to interdict the supply line, in fact, the entire Russian navy seems to be in front of Sevastopol to prevent me from doing so.

I suspect that no supply is making it through the air blockade. Which probably should have some trickle through.

I will try a writing an event to fire every turn that Sevastopol is Russian so they get some minimal amount of supply. But it could be that the air is too powerful in shutting down the supply line.

_____________________________

What's the sense of sending $2 million missiles to hit a $10 tent that's empty?

— President George W. Bush, Oval Office meeting, 13 September 2001.

(in reply to LiquidSky)
Post #: 13
RE: Soviet Supply - 9/24/2012 8:26:34 AM   
Bonners


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I reckon that is fairly realistic tbh LiquidSky. Fair enough it is not on the scale of Sevastapol, but I'm currently reading a book on the siege of Malta during 1940-43. Bearing in mind that at no time was there the number of aircraft involved compared to Sevastapol, but there was a stage during 1942 where the Luftwaffe effectively locked the island down where no seaborne supplies could get through and the population started to starve.

Bearing in mind the Soviets had no effective aircraft in range themselves to defend Sevastapol (which Malta did) I reckon it is realistic enough that if the Axis player wants to concentrate his airpower in the Crimea then it could stop all supplies getting through.

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RE: Soviet Supply - 9/24/2012 6:29:22 PM   
LiquidSky


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Alas, there is a fairly big difference between Sevastopol and Malta. The biggest is that boats could sail from the Caucaus' ports and reach Sevastopol under cover of darkness. Secondly, Sevastopol is a fortress, with 'stockpiling' of supply. Attritional fighting doesnt take place, instead, you need planned assaults to attack the defenders, which means they donot expend much supply until the enemy attacks.

In my game (Trappenjagd) I ignored Sevastopol and its defenders. My opponent played fortifications card on the three hexes on the front line. After the fall of Kerch, I moved Manstien over and in ONE TURN, took the three front hexes and city hex, because he was so low on supply. Without using bombers, and without using any of the infantry involved in the Kerch battle. In fact, I probably didnt bomb either Sevastopol or his front line units once during the whole game.

His lack of supply was solely from the air interdiction from my airforce sitting on their airfields. So I think that some minimal supply should be in order....say a 25% level, or maybe even 50%.

My light reading on Sevastopol does show that supply did get through..for example:

On 15 June another 3,400 soldiers, 442 tons of ammunition, 30 tons of fuel and 12 tons of provisions reinforced the Soviets.[32]

And it wasnt from lack of effort. The luftwaffe did try and did sink some ships in interdicting the port.

_____________________________

What's the sense of sending $2 million missiles to hit a $10 tent that's empty?

— President George W. Bush, Oval Office meeting, 13 September 2001.

(in reply to Bonners)
Post #: 15
RE: Soviet Supply - 9/24/2012 7:50:00 PM   
wallas

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky

My opponent played fortifications card on the three hexes on the front line.


And I would not do that again the 24PP are better used else where. As liquid said he blew right threw my defences and having 1 division or 2 in the hex made no difference with zero lack of supply.

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RE: Soviet Supply - 9/24/2012 8:57:45 PM   
stone10


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The amout of supply you get this turn = the amount of supply your units requested last turn.
So if there is sudden increase in supply consumption and you do not have enough stock, your units probably have to eat less for 1 or 2 turns.

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RE: Soviet Supply - 9/25/2012 10:08:38 PM   
LiquidSky


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It seems to be a self feeding death spiral in Sevastopol. Units request supply....luftwaffe stops all of it. Units request more. Luftwaffe stops all of it. Finally, units need all supply (having none) Luftwaffe sinks all of it.

Germans attack = easy victory.

A solution seems rather trivial. in Event 159: Sevastopol Structural Repair Bonus, the Russians get a bonus 250 repair points in damage to the port. (note, in my game, I never bombed the port. All the supply was lost to interdiction). After the line which does the bonus, I add:

EXECUTE: ExecGiveSupply(20,82,100,-1) where the 20,82 is the sevastopol hex, and 100 is the amount of supplies I am dropping. Note that it seems to want an HQ near the hex the supply is dropped in, in order to distribute the supply, so if you evacuate the HQ, it probably wont work.

As well, once Sevastopol falls, it will never get this bonus supply again.

I also picked the number 100 out of a hat...I don't know how much supply the units actually need....going to have to experiment a bit to see...as I usually play the Axis. I am aiming for a number that will give about 25% to 50% supply.

EDIT: 100 is way to small...going to try 500.

< Message edited by LiquidSky -- 9/25/2012 10:23:52 PM >


_____________________________

What's the sense of sending $2 million missiles to hit a $10 tent that's empty?

— President George W. Bush, Oval Office meeting, 13 September 2001.

(in reply to stone10)
Post #: 18
RE: Soviet Supply - 9/26/2012 5:00:44 AM   
LiquidSky


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Hmm..seems I am unable to give Sevastopol any supply...

I tried :

EXECUTE: ExecGiveSupply(20,82,500,-1)
and it didnt seem to work..maybe the Army HQ is too small to receive the supply, and there has to be a Front HQ there...or maybe it only works on Stavka.

Going to try my luck with ExecModifyUnitSupply(Gameslot_SovietsRegime(#5), [HisID383]Coastal Army, 100, 500)
to give the HQ supply to pass down...if that fails, I may have to give the rifle divisions supply directly, but with 7 rifle divisions (ignoring the marine/tank/other brigades) that would be 7 lines of code.

_____________________________

What's the sense of sending $2 million missiles to hit a $10 tent that's empty?

— President George W. Bush, Oval Office meeting, 13 September 2001.

(in reply to LiquidSky)
Post #: 19
RE: Soviet Supply - 9/26/2012 6:25:27 AM   
LiquidSky


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Bah...that didnt work either.

For those who are curious...

Without firing any artillery, or using any bombers, I can take Sevastopol by the end of May. Boot up the Trappenjagd scenario, skip the first turn and either fly down a bunch of luftwaffe bombers to cities in the crimea (two per hex to avoid stacking penalties) on the second turn when you can.

Then just hit end turn for both sides until May 22 German turn. Without any bombardment by air or artillery..Attack with the Germans (and Rumanians helping) but not with Rumanians only. Watch them flee back to the city. For fun you can play the Fortifications card (won't matter) or set the default retreat from 50% to Stand and Die. (they panic and retreat).

And it is because supply does not get into the city....so their action ratings go to near zero. They seem to have a stockpile for shooting (10 turns worth?) but I cannot figure out how to get them some basic level of supply (say 50%?) using the event method ExecGiveSupply or ExecModifyUnitSupply. Guess I will have to sleep on this for the moment.

_____________________________

What's the sense of sending $2 million missiles to hit a $10 tent that's empty?

— President George W. Bush, Oval Office meeting, 13 September 2001.

(in reply to LiquidSky)
Post #: 20
RE: Soviet Supply - 9/26/2012 7:51:28 AM   
LiquidSky


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In a final futile attempt before going to bed, I set the ExecGiveSupply(20,82,9998,-1) and noticed a curious thing. I believe the supply is actually ending up at Stavka because Sevastopol is a port...then is attempting to flow back to all the units on the map... which puts me back into the problem of supply being interdicted by air, and none getting into the port. Which means I will have to figure out how to modify the unit's supply values.

Perhaps I will be better off just giving them all large stockpiles....but that would mean they would be at 100% supply until they run out. I also wonder if setting their supply requests at a lower value then 100% might help. Going to have to experiment some more tomorrow.

_____________________________

What's the sense of sending $2 million missiles to hit a $10 tent that's empty?

— President George W. Bush, Oval Office meeting, 13 September 2001.

(in reply to LiquidSky)
Post #: 21
RE: Soviet Supply - 9/26/2012 8:14:39 AM   
Keunert


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maybe you could run some tests with placing some soviet fighter units on interdiction nearby and see what's happening to the antisupply of axis air?

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RE: Soviet Supply - 9/26/2012 10:48:39 PM   
LiquidSky


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Hmm..well, in my test, I leave Kerch alone, which starts with a fighter in that town in the middle. It probably does help, except that in a real game, the axis will obliterate any fighters that are close enough to reach the distance to Sevastopol.

I did have a major breakthrough, though.

I gave up on using the simple supply rules, as they only assume supply flows from Stavka/OKH. I activated RuleVar# 887.

Now I can easily pump supply into Sevastopol with ExecGiveSupply. With the value at 250, I find that the units in the Sevastopol bridgehead drop to about 25% strength and around June 3-5, Sevastopol falls.

Problem is, the turns take about 2 minutes to process for the Soviets and about a minute for the Axis. Mind you, that would be okay in a PBEM game.

_____________________________

What's the sense of sending $2 million missiles to hit a $10 tent that's empty?

— President George W. Bush, Oval Office meeting, 13 September 2001.

(in reply to Keunert)
Post #: 23
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