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RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason?

 
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RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason? - 9/13/2012 9:10:56 PM   
JocMeister

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

BUT:
I got a serious issue that this happens in readiness status.
IMHO destroyed devices should only be replaced in the other repair modes.



+1 on that!

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 31
RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason? - 9/13/2012 9:18:50 PM   
LoBaron


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quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

Have a few questions-

Would be curious to see results of a Naval Attack when the ship was at sea? Would the "fires" be present then, because the port is possibly extinguishing them during the repair segment before you see them?



Very likely, always depending on the ammount of fires and the ships dmg control capability (sp. ship type/size, speed, weather, crew exp, and commander skill)

quote:

What happens if you put the ship into a TF immediately after the Port Attack with all of the small guns still damaged but little Sys accumulated...will there be repair that takes place that inflicts SYS damage even if the ship is at sea.?


No, you need to be disbanded in port to replace destroyed devices.

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 9/13/2012 9:20:00 PM >

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Post #: 32
RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason? - 9/13/2012 9:53:36 PM   
obvert


Posts: 3683
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

BUT:
I got a serious issue that this happens in readiness status.
IMHO destroyed devices should only be replaced in the other repair modes.



+1 on that!


Yes. I certainly wouldn't have expected that. Maybe because this is a size 9 port?

In the test I noticed the BB didn't begin repairing until other smaller ships had their devices replaced, and there was no major spike in system damage for the CAs or CLs, but even the torpedo tubes of CA Devonshire were repaired. In fact the system damage goes down a point each turn for the CA.






Attachment (1)

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Post #: 33
RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason? - 9/14/2012 4:59:21 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 2144
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: online 		So, is the consensus that the reason this happens is not because the devices were destroyed in the attack but were damaged, and like insurance companies do to cars, "total" them even though they have some degree of function, then when they're removed the display shows them as destroyed?

I was once rear ended by some moron at 20 mph (which can kill people) because he had to talk on his cellphone while driving. He did not even touch his brakes. The car (an Accord) was "totalled" by the insurance company and some time later a car dealer in Oklahoma called up because they were now in possession of it and couldn't find anything wrong with it, and were incredulous as to why it was "totalled". When you get down to brass tacks the insurance company screwed the owner (and driver) of the car in order to repair it to "like new" quality, sell it and pocket the profits. He was unable to buy a car anywhere near the quality of the one his insurance called "totalled" for the money they paid him.

I really brought this up for anyone who might read this who thinks you can talk on a phone or text and drive at the same time. No one can, not even Bill Clinton. You can do one or the other properly but not both at the same time. People who answer or call on a phone while driving will always give top priority to that activity, and many die as a result. Natural selection, I guess. But how is it natural selection in the case of the people they kill? I should stress that no-hands phone systems are exactly no different. The hands are not the issue. Your focus and attention is. I often refuse to even converse with my passengers when I'm driving. It's just too dangerous (and careless I might add).

How's that for veering off topic?

I still want reaction to the beginning of this post.

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 34
RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason? - 9/14/2012 7:08:44 AM   
LoBaron


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

So, is the consensus that the reason this happens is not because the devices were destroyed in the attack but were damaged, and like insurance companies do to cars, "total" them even though they have some degree of function, then when they're removed the display shows them as destroyed?


No. Where did you get that from?

The devices get destroyed. Replacing destroyed devices takes time, the bigger or the more complex the device, and the larger the number of devices,
the larger the ammount of time required for this. In addition a device consists of mountings on the deck, which can be damaged as well, or cables,
feeding belts,... leading to the device which can be damaged and destroyed as well.

In WitP a device is represented by only a number. It changes from 0 (destroyed) to 1(fully functional) in a single phase. So you need a placeholder for the ammount
of time required for a complex repair and replacement operation.
This placeholder function adds sys dmg to the ship when the destroyed devices get replaced - sp. when a device number changes from a red "0" to a white "1"
(sys dmg aded probably depends on the devices load cost + maybe a random (?)).

It is an abstraction to simulate a complex situation with the variables available within the game, without introducing new variables.

_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

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Post #: 35
RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason? - 9/14/2012 12:14:17 PM   
obvert


Posts: 3683
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: London, UK
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

So, is the consensus that the reason this happens is not because the devices were destroyed in the attack but were damaged, and like insurance companies do to cars, "total" them even though they have some degree of function, then when they're removed the display shows them as destroyed?


No. Where did you get that from?

The devices get destroyed. Replacing destroyed devices takes time, the bigger or the more complex the device, and the larger the number of devices,
the larger the ammount of time required for this. In addition a device consists of mountings on the deck, which can be damaged as well, or cables,
feeding belts,... leading to the device which can be damaged and destroyed as well.

In WitP a device is represented by only a number. It changes from 0 (destroyed) to 1(fully functional) in a single phase. So you need a placeholder for the ammount
of time required for a complex repair and replacement operation.
This placeholder function adds sys dmg to the ship when the destroyed devices get replaced - sp. when a device number changes from a red "0" to a white "1"
(sys dmg aded probably depends on the devices load cost + maybe a random (?)).

It is an abstraction to simulate a complex situation with the variables available within the game, without introducing new variables.


Do you have any ideas why the CA devices seem to accrue no 'place-holder' damage from replacing torpedo tubes and radar? It's hard to see this as equivalent to the 2pdr guns of the BB, but the tubes and radar seem like they might be a bigger job than a few day's work at least.

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Post #: 36
RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason? - 9/14/2012 2:51:02 PM   
michaelm


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Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		One thing I have noticed is that if the BB was attacked at sea, the SYS damage from weapon damage appears by the end of the turn.
But if the BB is attacked while in port, the same SYS damage does not get added until sometime during the port repair cycle when the ordinary SYS damage is repaired or drops below some point.
Thus the small SYS (eg 7) in the examples above, while the real SYS (which is applied sometime during the repair cycle) is 60ish.
I think that this weapon damage check should have been done for the ship in port as well. This will lead to more correct reporting of the ship's "true" SYS damage.

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Post #: 37
RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason? - 9/14/2012 3:00:47 PM   
michaelm


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Status: offline 		It is not the actual device replacement that is spiking the SYS, but the fact the total of the damaged devices does not reflect the actual SYS showing. In the example with the 99 SYS, the SYS of 9 was not correct for the number of actual devices damaged. When one device set was repaired, it calculated the total damage and determined it was understated.
From the result, I would expected that the correct SYS level after the port attack should have been closer to 99 than the value it was (9).

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Post #: 38
RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason? - 9/14/2012 3:03:58 PM   
LoBaron


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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Do you have any ideas why the CA devices seem to accrue no 'place-holder' damage from replacing torpedo tubes and radar? It's hard to see this as equivalent to the 2pdr guns of the BB, but the tubes and radar seem like they might be a bigger job than a few day's work at least.


Madras is a pretty large port, so probably generates quite an ammount of - as Alfred dubbed it - IRPs, even for readiness mode. But it is not unlimited.

So, actually I believe Devonshire accumulated placeholder dmg. Possibly even a lot. If this wasn't so, the sys dmg had reduced much faster.
Also it is a matter of priority, if Devonshire was among the first to receive repair points that easily explains the difference. No IRP left for poor BB.
Also CAs are much more difficult to repair than BBs.
Also Ramilles had 24 devices replaced at once, Devonshire only 4.

All this factors into what you experience. How much repair capacity is available for what is difficult to decipher in your example.

The test you are making would only produce usable results if you first disband one ship in port, and observe, and then the next one, and observe.
Only one ship at a time.

If you don't do this you cannot draw conclusions on repair speed, or relative damage caused by device replacement, as the repair points spent
on one ships' sys dmg continousely influences the repair points available for other repairs on the same and other ships.


_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

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Post #: 39
RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason? - 9/14/2012 3:14:02 PM   
LoBaron


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From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		WOW Michael! Thanks for the explanation!

So there has always been a bug in the dmg calculation algorithm?
That does not completely offset my explanation but dubs it down somehow...

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 9/14/2012 3:15:24 PM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 40
RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason? - 9/14/2012 3:18:54 PM   
michaelm


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Status: offline 		Only a bug in that you don't know you have a problem until the repairs kick in!

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Post #: 41
RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason? - 9/14/2012 3:21:42 PM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Only a bug in that you don't know you have a problem until the repairs kick in!

As always, thanks for the great support!!!




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Pax

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Post #: 42
RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason? - 9/14/2012 3:39:55 PM   
obvert


Posts: 3683
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: London, UK
Status: online 		Thanks for all of the answers here. I'll try some more thorough tests of this later this weekend as I already have it all set up. I might also try some different attack parameters to get slightly less damage to see how that works for each ship, and I'll try them in a TF on patrol maybe 5 hexes from port so if damaged they would have to stay on the water during the entire turn.

I'd like to see how different the resulting repair times are for each ship type (BB, CA, CL) based on similar damage. So if I can get say 4-5 devices destroyed on each type, see what the time would be in level 9 Madras for each ship type, then maybe I'll understand this better.

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Post #: 43
RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason? - 9/14/2012 3:54:46 PM   
witpqs

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

It is not the actual device replacement that is spiking the SYS, but the fact the total of the damaged devices does not reflect the actual SYS showing. In the example with the 99 SYS, the SYS of 9 was not correct for the number of actual devices damaged. When one device set was repaired, it calculated the total damage and determined it was understated.
From the result, I would expected that the correct SYS level after the port attack should have been closer to 99 than the value it was (9).

That makes way more sense than +90 sys from repairing some mounts! Thanks.

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Post #: 44
RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason? - 9/14/2012 4:13:36 PM   
geofflambert


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Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: online 		I had never seen this before, but I don't put warships in ports that might be bombed. Usually just AKLs and they always sink. Every time I've played Dec. 8, the BBs etc. that didn't sink and aren't on fire seem to have the same damage as after I put them in dry dock. I'll pay more attention next time. Maybe I'll just run a quick test and see it for myself.

And thanks, LoBaron, I'm rather dense, I'm afraid.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 45
RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason? - 9/14/2012 4:57:19 PM   
LoBaron


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert
And thanks, LoBaron, I'm rather dense, I'm afraid.


Putting Michaels response into consideration, you were about as far away from the actual truth as me. Guess we are both dense then.

_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

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Post #: 46
RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason? - 9/14/2012 5:58:37 PM   
geofflambert


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I just ran a Dec. 7, 8, 9 test and the only damage that increased on any ships (none were on fire) was in a few cases flotation damage. This must not be a valid test of the above issue, perhaps because the start of the game is scrypted I suppose. I have screen shots of the attack with #s of bomb hits and torpedo hits. I have shots of manage repair screens for the 8th, taken after I issued repair orders. I had some ships in each type, readiness, pier, repair ship and drydock. Some repairs on some ships were done in each category, SYS FLT and ENG, but the most significant repairs were on a few ship's flotation. I also of course have screenshots from the 9th for comparison. I saved it so I can run it for a couple more days if anyone wants me to. And I'll post any of the screenshots that anyone wants to see, if any.

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 47
RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason? - 9/15/2012 12:29:38 AM   
sandman455


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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

It is not the actual device replacement that is spiking the SYS, but the fact the total of the damaged devices does not reflect the actual SYS showing. In the example with the 99 SYS, the SYS of 9 was not correct for the number of actual devices damaged. When one device set was repaired, it calculated the total damage and determined it was understated.
From the result, I would expected that the correct SYS level after the port attack should have been closer to 99 than the value it was (9).


Thanks for posting this explanation.

I had a similar episode where the system damage took a massive spike after a battleship took a lot of topside damage but nothing appeared to be severe on the next turn. It's easy to dismiss those X's on the gun mounts.

Oddly enough I thought the huge spike in sys damage was related to crew casualties be calculated. The AA crews were obviously wiped out but the DC teams would have been decimated as well from so many hits being taken. It would have required a few months to get new crew to the ship and integrated into the ship's company so I was thinking the system damage was reflecting this.

Either way, its good to see a ship not getting off easy from so many hits.

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RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason? - 9/15/2012 10:56:16 AM   
obvert


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Joined: 1/17/2011
From: London, UK
Status: online 		Michael-

Here is the save from just after the test. A head to head game, saved on the Allied turn. The other ships, CAs and CLs are still in the port with various levels of damage.



Attachment (1)

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Post #: 49
RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason? - 9/15/2012 11:53:57 AM   
michaelm


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Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		Here is the new view after running the save. The understated SYS is now applied at the end of the turn (would have been applied after the combat turn normally).





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by michaelm -- 9/15/2012 11:54:25 AM >

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RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason? - 9/15/2012 1:16:56 PM   
obvert


Posts: 3683
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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Here is the new view after running the save. The understated SYS is now applied at the end of the turn (would have been applied after the combat turn normally).






So I'm not sure what you have done here. When I kept going turn after turn the devices were eventually replaced and system damage went up to 99. Did you do something different here? Sorry if I'm a bit dense, but that is definitely a different result than I got from just running more turns.

PS - Are the devices now replaced?

< Message edited by obvert -- 9/15/2012 1:18:33 PM >

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Post #: 51
RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason? - 9/15/2012 1:25:21 PM   
michaelm


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From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		And after the 2pdr are repaired..

Note that these results are with a new EXE I'm testing.




Attachment (1)

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Michael

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Post #: 52
RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason? - 9/15/2012 2:12:55 PM   
LoBaron


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Status: offline 		New exe, eh? Nice color coding Michael!

_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

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Post #: 53
RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason? - 9/15/2012 2:29:03 PM   
obvert


Posts: 3683
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: London, UK
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

And after the 2pdr are repaired..

Note that these results are with a new EXE I'm testing.



Ahhh. That makes sense now. Great.

_____________________________

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Post #: 54
RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason? - 9/15/2012 3:09:57 PM   
michaelm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

New exe, eh? Nice color coding Michael!

The GREEN colored (ammo) indicates that the port (without any tenders, etc) can reload the device. Kept having to look back at notes to see if the ship could rearm.

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Post #: 55
RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason? - 9/15/2012 3:38:50 PM   
btbw

 

Posts: 312
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Status: offline 		What if damage cost of repair destroyed equioment will be percentage of total device numbers?
For example ship have 50% structure damage and have destroyed half of weapon mounts.
So during replace destroyed mounts ship got additional 24.5% (half of 99-50%) damage.
Damage cost from repair cost can also be calculated as percentage of total load weight of all mounts but percentage of remaining damage.
So ship dont receive total destruction from numerous light AA mounts replace which can only damage only a few area of ship (depending from how big that mount). And dont damage again ship in places which already damaged (100+%) because replace or destroying it same hole.

< Message edited by btbw -- 9/15/2012 3:39:22 PM >

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Post #: 56
RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason? - 9/15/2012 3:45:01 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 3845
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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

New exe, eh? Nice color coding Michael!

The GREEN colored (ammo) indicates that the port (without any tenders, etc) can reload the device. Kept having to look back at notes to see if the ship could rearm.


Thats even better than I thought!

Sorry to go off topic, but did you remove the unlimited aviation support in that exe as well?
(If you prefer not to answer here I could shamelessly bump my thread on this topic in the tech support section. )

_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

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Post #: 57
RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason? - 9/15/2012 3:50:26 PM   
michaelm


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Status: offline 		yes, but left in for AI

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Post #: 58
RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason? - 9/15/2012 4:58:53 PM   
witpqs

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

New exe, eh? Nice color coding Michael!

The GREEN colored (ammo) indicates that the port (without any tenders, etc) can reload the device. Kept having to look back at notes to see if the ship could rearm.

Nice! Me too...

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Post #: 59
RE: Ships getting severely damaged in port for no reason? - 9/15/2012 6:36:53 PM   
LoBaron


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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

yes, but left in for AI


YEEEHAAA! Neeed...a....release.....date.....drool.....

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S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

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Post #: 60
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