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Gearing / Allen M. Sumner endurance

 
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Gearing / Allen M. Sumner endurance - 9/9/2012 7:57:08 PM   
Hotschi


Posts: 540
Joined: 1/18/2010
From: Austria
Status: offline 		Okay as everyone knows, the Fletchers, Gearings and Allen M. Sumner classes got the same endurance in WitP - 6250. And as everyone knows as well, the Gearings are a couple feet/meters (4.8 or 4,2 - now I don't know exactly ) longer than the Sumners, giving them 40% more fuel storage places.

And as I also know very well, the developers are not daft and had a good reason for giving all 3 classes the same endurance.

What is the reason?

_____________________________

"A big butcher's bill is not necessarily evidence of good tactics"

- Wavell's reply to Churchill, after the latter complained about faint-heartedness, as he discovered that British casualties in the evacuation from Somaliland had been only 260 men.
Post #: 1
RE: Gearing / Allen M. Sumner endurance - 9/10/2012 5:27:06 PM   
US87891

 

Posts: 385
Joined: 1/2/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hotschi

Okay as everyone knows, the Fletchers, Gearings and Allen M. Sumner classes got the same endurance in WitP - 6250. And as everyone knows as well, the Gearings are a couple feet/meters (4.8 or 4,2 - now I don't know exactly ) longer than the Sumners, giving them 40% more fuel storage places.

And as I also know very well, the developers are not daft and had a good reason for giving all 3 classes the same endurance.

What is the reason?

I asked the studio audience ...
quote:

Laziness, pure laziness. That’s what they were in WiTP, so what the hey. And no, didn’t do new fuel/endurance for DDs in the latest update for the same reason :-) butt, if you really wanna know what they are …

DD 455 - 5720nm - 4500nm - 5110nm - @15kt - 556t (radius oil)
DD 692 - 4600nm - 4130nm - 4365nm - @15kt - 537t (radius oil)
DD 710 - 6560nm - 5715nm - 6137nm - @15kt - 781t (radius oil)

First number is endurance at 15 kts on standard “loaded” displacement.
.. this is 2350t for DD445, 2750t for DD692, 2750t for DD710
Next number is endurance at 15 kts on “full war load” displacement.
.. this is 2850t for DD445, 3150t for DD692, 3300t for DD710
Next number is endurance at 15 kts on “average”.
.. tons are long tons. Close enough to metric that it don’t matter much.

Everything is expressly normalized to 15 knots, which is the game cruise speed. Endurance values are based on steady-state cruising (+/- 0.5 knots), clean bottoms, and nominal sea-states. Higher sea-states, bottom fouling, and speed changes (such as in patrolling, station changing, and ordinary tactical maneuvering) will reduce the average endurance by up to 30%.

Full speed fuel burn rate for these three classes is approximately 4.5x their burn rates at 15 knots. Since they actually did burn more than the nominal 15 knot figures, having them burn at 6x, under the full speed code, makes overall fuel requirement things average out right nice.

Data comes from the same sources used for the updates. They are USN statistical studies for actual performance.

Matt

_____________________________


(in reply to Hotschi)
Post #: 2
RE: Gearing / Allen M. Sumner endurance - 9/10/2012 5:59:21 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8162
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline
Matt.

You, John, and the "studio audience" are great. Thanks for all you contribute to the game.

Don

(in reply to US87891)
Post #: 3
RE: Gearing / Allen M. Sumner endurance - 9/10/2012 8:23:46 PM   
Buck Beach

 

Posts: 1941
Joined: 6/25/2000
From: Upland,CA,USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: US87891


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hotschi

Okay as everyone knows, the Fletchers, Gearings and Allen M. Sumner classes got the same endurance in WitP - 6250. And as everyone knows as well, the Gearings are a couple feet/meters (4.8 or 4,2 - now I don't know exactly ) longer than the Sumners, giving them 40% more fuel storage places.

And as I also know very well, the developers are not daft and had a good reason for giving all 3 classes the same endurance.

What is the reason?

I asked the studio audience ...
quote:

Laziness, pure laziness. That’s what they were in WiTP, so what the hey. And no, didn’t do new fuel/endurance for DDs in the latest update for the same reason :-) butt, if you really wanna know what they are …

DD 455 - 5720nm - 4500nm - 5110nm - @15kt - 556t (radius oil)
DD 692 - 4600nm - 4130nm - 4365nm - @15kt - 537t (radius oil)
DD 710 - 6560nm - 5715nm - 6137nm - @15kt - 781t (radius oil)

First number is endurance at 15 kts on standard “loaded” displacement.
.. this is 2350t for DD445, 2750t for DD692, 2750t for DD710
Next number is endurance at 15 kts on “full war load” displacement.
.. this is 2850t for DD445, 3150t for DD692, 3300t for DD710
Next number is endurance at 15 kts on “average”.
.. tons are long tons. Close enough to metric that it don’t matter much.

Everything is expressly normalized to 15 knots, which is the game cruise speed. Endurance values are based on steady-state cruising (+/- 0.5 knots), clean bottoms, and nominal sea-states. Higher sea-states, bottom fouling, and speed changes (such as in patrolling, station changing, and ordinary tactical maneuvering) will reduce the average endurance by up to 30%.

Full speed fuel burn rate for these three classes is approximately 4.5x their burn rates at 15 knots. Since they actually did burn more than the nominal 15 knot figures, having them burn at 6x, under the full speed code, makes overall fuel requirement things average out right nice.

Data comes from the same sources used for the updates. They are USN statistical studies for actual performance.

Matt


You guys are great but somehow I stay confused. Is this a duh, Fuel game load is radius x 2. don't know what to put for the class endurance or tonnage.

If you will please break it down for this dummy.

DD-455 Endurance = , Game Tonnage =
DD-692 Endurance = , Game Tonnage =
DD-710 Endurance = , Game Tonnage =


Buck

(in reply to US87891)
Post #: 4
RE: Gearing / Allen M. Sumner endurance - 9/11/2012 4:24:43 PM   
US87891

 

Posts: 385
Joined: 1/2/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

You guys are great but somehow I stay confused. Is this a duh, Fuel game load is radius x 2. don't know what to put for the class endurance or tonnage.

If you will please break it down for this dummy.

DD-455 Endurance = , Game Tonnage =
DD-692 Endurance = , Game Tonnage =
DD-710 Endurance = , Game Tonnage =


Buck

Radius oil is just a word the Navy uses to describe fuel capacity. Thust the Navy to use a word different from everybody else. This is from Surface Vessel Fuel Consumption FTP-218.

Two fuel capacities are given in table V: (1) Radius oil and (2) maximum capacity (95%). The need for establishing the radius oil capacity arose from the fact that fueling certain ships to maximum capacity appreciably reduces reserve buoyancy and resistance to underwater damage. The radius oil capacity represents the best obtainable compromise between cruising radius and damage control requirements.

I sincerely hope I get this right. Game tonnage is the cost of making a ship or the cost of putting it in a yard or floating drydock for repairs. The game tonnage is the standard tonnage for warships and a combination of light-ship weight tonnage and a rectangular size form factor for merchants and axiliaries. It is the basic empty ship with just a few things in it. The endurance displacement tonnage is just used to calculate endurance. It does not work for game tonnage because it is a different thing.

You can use any of the endurance numbers for your endurance. It all depends. I prefer using the 'average' endurance.

DD-455 Endurance = 5110, Fuel = 556, Game Tonnage = 2325
DD-692 Endurance = 4365, Fuel = 537, Game Tonnage = 2610
DD-710 Endurance = 6137, Fuel = 781, Game Tonnage = 2616

I hope this helps. I hope I'm right.

Matt

_____________________________


(in reply to Buck Beach)
Post #: 5
RE: Gearing / Allen M. Sumner endurance - 9/11/2012 4:58:38 PM   
Buck Beach

 

Posts: 1941
Joined: 6/25/2000
From: Upland,CA,USA
Status: offline 		Thank you.

Buck

(in reply to US87891)
Post #: 6
RE: Gearing / Allen M. Sumner endurance - 9/13/2012 4:31:04 PM   
Hotschi


Posts: 540
Joined: 1/18/2010
From: Austria
Status: offline 		Thank you for the info. If I understand it right, the current endurance used for all 3 classes is too high, should be lower.

I know that the recent update to BigBabes/BabesLite didn't touch endurance of ship classes 'lower' than cruisers, and as I wouldn't know how to calculate it myself for all the other DD's (not to mention the IJN) I hope that a future update will include these.

_____________________________

"A big butcher's bill is not necessarily evidence of good tactics"

- Wavell's reply to Churchill, after the latter complained about faint-heartedness, as he discovered that British casualties in the evacuation from Somaliland had been only 260 men.

(in reply to Buck Beach)
Post #: 7
RE: Gearing / Allen M. Sumner endurance - 9/13/2012 4:48:26 PM   
JuanG


Posts: 900
Joined: 12/28/2008
Status: offline 		A lot of this stuff is available here, incase anyone is interested in reading it.

_____________________________


Coral Sea HDM
AltWNT Scenarios

(in reply to Hotschi)
Post #: 8
RE: Gearing / Allen M. Sumner endurance - 9/15/2012 2:10:31 PM   
Hotschi


Posts: 540
Joined: 1/18/2010
From: Austria
Status: offline 		Excellent link, thanks!

_____________________________

"A big butcher's bill is not necessarily evidence of good tactics"

- Wavell's reply to Churchill, after the latter complained about faint-heartedness, as he discovered that British casualties in the evacuation from Somaliland had been only 260 men.

(in reply to JuanG)
Post #: 9
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