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When there is no real northern border....

 
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When there is no real northern border.... - 9/9/2012 4:51:27 PM   
schmolywar

 

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In my second Case Blue campaign PBEM and the germans have advanced beyond Voronezh in the north.

Since there is no real northern border that means the germans dont have the need for an extended flank security and can put all their allies in the attack instead.

As we know the germans had their northern flank resting on the Don.

So advancing on a wide front is definitely the right strategy in this game and I have no idea as the soviets how to defend this.

This has got to be a well known problem with limited map wargames. How is this normally dealt with?

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RE: When there is no real northern border.... - 9/9/2012 6:53:09 PM   
olivier34

 

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In my PBEM I have advance east of Voronezh (minor OKH orders). Now if the german has the order to take Stalingrad and drive into the caucase, I doubt that he will be abble to push north and achieve those objectives in the same time. Who knows...

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RE: When there is no real northern border.... - 9/9/2012 6:58:52 PM   
schmolywar

 

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Oh he does. Basically the whole front collapses (at least in my games). Im not able to hold 700K+ germans with 300K soviets. The prestige objectives does in no way make up for this. Go for broke for Saratov and beyond and all the other stuff doesnt matter. Stalingrad is much easer to take when your converging on it from both west, south and north :)

< Message edited by schmolywar -- 9/9/2012 7:13:15 PM >


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"The Russian advance over this hastily improvised road, constructed with the aid of the most primitive facilities, was, for a time,accompanied by the strains of band music.".

-Peculiarities of russian warfare

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RE: When there is no real northern border.... - 9/9/2012 8:04:21 PM   
olivier34

 

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300 000 soviets left...your opponent can clearly push everywhere and of course following the north border of the map is really helpfull for him. Good luck

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RE: When there is no real northern border.... - 9/9/2012 9:01:16 PM   
Keunert


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we should build a soviet player aa club.

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RE: When there is no real northern border.... - 9/9/2012 10:27:10 PM   
LiquidSky


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My friend has anchored the north with the 5th Tank army and some other army....he is dug in quite strongly along that river that flows down through Voronezh. I doubt I will be pushing along the North edge. Voronezh itself has about 200 stacking points worth of stuff in it, and I am not even sure if I will be able to outflank it enough to take it in time. I dont think it is a problem of the Germans pushing along the north so much as the Russians not defending it.

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RE: When there is no real northern border.... - 9/10/2012 1:19:25 AM   
schmolywar

 

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Hex 66.13 just south of Davidovkao is the key to unhinge the whole Voronezh defense. I fortified the area and made sure to put counterattacking units around it to blunt the blitzkrieg units (and I sure did to some extent), but there is only so much you can do before the germans dominate the spot with their infantry. The Don can be crossed in several places and the soviets cannot be as strong everywhere along it.

Im absolutely positive there are better defenders than I, but I doubt many can actually hold any serious assault across the Don and buy the time necessary to get sufficient reinforcements in the area.

Im talking about the full Case Campaign here, not the short version.

< Message edited by schmolywar -- 9/10/2012 1:20:08 AM >


_____________________________

"The Russian advance over this hastily improvised road, constructed with the aid of the most primitive facilities, was, for a time,accompanied by the strains of band music.".

-Peculiarities of russian warfare

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RE: When there is no real northern border.... - 9/10/2012 1:58:35 AM   
aspqrz

 

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I'd guess, really, that there should be a triggerable reinforcement event to cover this ... just to add to the uncertainty ... but have the reinforcements (Soviet) appear at some inconveniently located hex along the northern map edge to represent the Germans, in real life, probably (almost certainly) having a wide open gap in their off map northern flank.

A randomly triggerable event would force the German to act more historically, I'd guess ... especially since neither side really has much in the way of the historical rear-area security elements that were actually in play.

Phil

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RE: When there is no real northern border.... - 9/10/2012 2:42:15 AM   
schmolywar

 

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^ agreed. I think as more people play the full campaign in PBEM they will see these points more clearly.

_____________________________

"The Russian advance over this hastily improvised road, constructed with the aid of the most primitive facilities, was, for a time,accompanied by the strains of band music.".

-Peculiarities of russian warfare

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RE: When there is no real northern border.... - 9/10/2012 12:12:00 PM   
Isokron

 

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Im the german player in those games and I have to agree that the northern edge of the map is a weak point in the game. I would say either give the soviet player the ability to spawn units/draw supply from all the northern hexes east of the don or define an area in the north of the map with significantly more partisans or something to give the german player less incentives to achor his front there. Now it seems like a no brainer to just keep pushing at least up to the volga, which should give you a very secure flank if you ever need to go on the defensive (basically you only need to guard Saratov and supply problems will take care of the rest is my guess).

As schmolywar said defending around Voronezh just doesnt work since the german player can cross the don further south where its too winding to be effectivly defended (and has some convenient bridges) and then the soviet have to pull back from Voronezh or be pocketed.

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RE: When there is no real northern border.... - 9/11/2012 7:00:51 PM   
redmarkus4


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Frankly, I would abandon any game against an opponent who used the map edge that way - what's the point of the game for either party?

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RE: When there is no real northern border.... - 9/11/2012 7:51:06 PM   
Isokron

 

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I suppose its a bit "gamey" but then again I usually try to play strategy games as well as possible within the given ruleset barring any obvious bug/exploits. I suppose you could see the northern border as an exploit in this game so I guess I wouldnt really mind it as a house rule not to do it if its clearly stated from the start.

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RE: When there is no real northern border.... - 9/12/2012 1:07:42 AM   
schmolywar

 

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I have no problem with it actually. Its something id do myself in this game because its so beneficial. Its an option to play ahistorical and it should be tried.

However, the game should maybe have features to discourage that strategy.

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"The Russian advance over this hastily improvised road, constructed with the aid of the most primitive facilities, was, for a time,accompanied by the strains of band music.".

-Peculiarities of russian warfare

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RE: When there is no real northern border.... - 9/12/2012 11:01:57 AM   
rominet


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Until the problem is resolved by a patch (maybe), a simple HR could solve this trouble.
For example:
"germans must leave at least one unit per hex at the top of the map from the hex north of Terbuny until the east"

Of course, by "one unit", i mean a unit from the OOB start or with at least 1000 men, not a newly created unit filled with only 10 soldiers who are playing cards around a fire.

A trigger event should be a good solution.
Stalin and Stavka were very frightened by the fact that Voronezh could be a good starting base for an offensive toward Moscow and if i am not wrong, they sent a lot of troops in this sector when the germans reached the Don and captured Voronezh.

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RE: When there is no real northern border.... - 9/12/2012 11:55:12 AM   
Keunert


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my main concern in my current game are the wherabouts of the german mobile and armored troops of this sector. the axis will have to man a line anyway. more so as in most of my games my front at Voronezh is one of the better equipped on the entire map.
but if he moves all his Panzers and Panzergrenadiere elsewhere he will get a super spearhead. but then again this wouldn't be an unrealistic behaviour, or am i wrong?

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RE: When there is no real northern border.... - 9/12/2012 1:18:38 PM   
Bonners


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Keunert

my main concern in my current game are the wherabouts of the german mobile and armored troops of this sector. the axis will have to man a line anyway. more so as in most of my games my front at Voronezh is one of the better equipped on the entire map.
but if he moves all his Panzers and Panzergrenadiere elsewhere he will get a super spearhead. but then again this wouldn't be an unrealistic behaviour, or am i wrong?



Sounds about right to me. Going off the top of my head (at work, no books to reference), didnt the majority of 4th PZA head south after the capture of Voronezh following the west side of the Don? That is certainly what I am doing in my game against the AI. There are no more objectives further north so once the line of the Don is taken it is full steam south. I've transferred a corps to 2nd Army and they and the Hungarians will be holding the line, I mean, what could possibly go wrong?

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RE: When there is no real northern border.... - 9/12/2012 3:02:46 PM   
Keunert


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i understood the topic wrong... in one game against schmolnywar he choose to stand still at the Don. this was the right thing for him to do as we played Case Blue short. if you play the long one it would be better for the Axis player to keep the pressure on and push further. in my experience this will ultimately lead to a breakdown of all soviet fronts. but i never got that late into the campaign. Olivier and myself soon will now...

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RE: When there is no real northern border.... - 9/12/2012 4:14:49 PM   
LiquidSky


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The computer likes to keep giving me Anna as an objective, which is farther east along the north edge.

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RE: When there is no real northern border.... - 9/12/2012 4:52:55 PM   
redmarkus4


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Sorry - I thought I read up the top that one player used the map edge to drive all the way to Saratov? Maybe I misunderstood...

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RE: When there is no real northern border.... - 9/12/2012 5:44:16 PM   
olivier34

 

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I had Anna as an objective too, that's why I did move a little east with 2A. I may be wrong but I don't think that the german player should move toward Saratov (Stalingrad and the oil fields are the objectives, right ?) and the use of the north map edge sounds gamey to me.

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RE: When there is no real northern border.... - 9/12/2012 6:30:10 PM   
James Ward

 

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You could solve the north edge problem by removing the rail crossing at Saratov and putting it in Stalingrad. It would be very difficult to continue to advance in the North without a supply route close by

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RE: When there is no real northern border.... - 9/12/2012 8:28:27 PM   
LiquidSky


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I think a better solution would be to use an event that gives the Russians Zhukov's army that he used in Operation Mars at Rhzev as they probably would have used that to hit the thin lines of the Germans in the North (of the case blue map). You could even give the Germans a couple of divisions from Army Group Centre as they were tied down by that offensive. That way, the Germans have a choice..they can expand their effort in the south by going for Saratov as well, but at the expense of 500k more Russians entering the map.



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What's the sense of sending $2 million missiles to hit a $10 tent that's empty?

— President George W. Bush, Oval Office meeting, 13 September 2001.

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RE: When there is no real northern border.... - 9/14/2012 12:58:54 PM   
Bonners


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Just o add something else to this debate, I really think that the Axis objectives really dont help with this. I'm afraid I'm not near the game now so dont remember the names, but I've had two objectives now that have forced me to cross the Don below Voronezh and sweep North Eastwards in force. I had just taken the first objective and decided to withdraw from it to a shorter line when I got the orders for the second one even further North East pushing towards Saratov. Now, I'm playing against the AI and although I dont want to replicate Case Blue I would still like to get a flavour of the actual campaign. So I will do the same again, take the obj and then withdraw to my defensive line I've already decided on.

The trouble is, it is a stage of the game (middle of August) when the Russians are at their weakest, if I was playing a human player would I really want to give up those objectives or would I be tempted to push on to the northern border and Saratov? Hmmm...

I definitely think some tinkering is needed around the edges of this. You cant really blame somebody in a human vs human game going for the north when there are a succession of objectives pointing them in that direction and by moving the forces needed back south may end up giving the Russian a valuable breathing space. If it was me, rather than bringing down more forces from Moscow fronts (which may unbalance the game the other way) I would just say have an arbitrary cut off line for where objectives will be on the northern edge of the map. Yes OKH and Hitler would get more ambitious, but surely this would still be within the confines of Case Blue, going for earlier objectives down south and also the area around Stalingrad.

I'll look fully at the may when I get home, but if you follow the Don on the east bank down from Voronezh there is a railway line that leads virtually directly to Stalingrad. Now that and a few hexes east of it say (to protect the supply route) does seem a reasonable area to have northern objective, I just dont reckon it should go much further north form that line.

If you still get human players taking the northern edge of the map then at least they will not be getting any prestige points for it and it owuld hopefully mean that they are missing out on points to the south.

Having said all that, it is only a minor point in the overall game (although I'm sure it could be come a major point in human vs human games), I'm still having an absolute blast at this game! My first ever PC strategy game campaign (excluding Panzer Corps), just reached the middle of August and am thoroughly addicted

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RE: When there is no real northern border.... - 9/14/2012 7:45:00 PM   
redmarkus4


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My only complaint would be with a player using the map edge as a secure flank - pushing his main force all the way along the top of the map. That would go beyond gamey. A standard drive from anywhere else on the map, even 6-7 hexes from the top, towards Saratov is fine by me.


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RE: When there is no real northern border.... - 9/20/2012 7:57:14 PM   
Keunert


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one possible way to prevent an exploitation of the northern border could be a modified Dyle point mechanic: on a certain hex area the axis has to have a certain amount of troops or else this will trigger additional reinforcements for the soviets or the okh puts an axis army to the reserve .

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RE: When there is no real northern border.... - 9/21/2012 2:57:35 PM   
olivier34

 

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Good idea Keunert. In our game I have the 2A there with another corps attached to and a hungarian corps has well. I have move a few units east to see where you have built your line of defense. (I have to do it because your air fighters have shot down my recon planes ).

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