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HQ Level Question

 
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HQ Level Question - 9/7/2012 3:35:11 PM   
Carl Rugenstein


Posts: 169
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hoosierland
Status: offline 		Before I ask my question the first thing I've got to say is, Wow, ATG is impressive. I don't know why I did not check the game out sooner but certainly should have. I've done quite a bit of work with the Operational Art Of War with Vietnam scenarios even back to "Boonie Rat"'s Volume I but had pretty much given up because of it's limitations. I really don't know how to describe the sensation of opening up the ATG editor without using some words I cannot really write on the forum. Thank you Thank you Thank you.

My question relates to the levels of HQ attachment. From what I can determine it looks like there can be a max of 4 levels. Basically 3 levels of HQ's and one of Non-HQ. Am I missing something or is this basically correct?

While I am posting, in checking all of the reference material I could find for the editor it looks like one is underway but not really available/complete. Have been through the Wiki and other documents. Any suggestions about the best places to check would be very much appreciated.

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“I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.” - Robert_McCloskey
Post #: 1
RE: HQ Level Question - 9/7/2012 5:42:25 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

Posts: 1083
Joined: 9/15/2009
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		First welcome to the game :) It´s nice to see a new face :)

And for your question. The default amount is set at 4. This can be changed to be any number, including 0 which is unlimited amounts of HQs.

This is done in the editor, in Setng, in rulevars, under HQ Power, rulevar nr. 304.

Now a word on HQs.

Most players, i think, operate with just 2 levels of HQs in reality. One as a supreme HQ, that gets all supplies and such, and the others below it, that get reinforcements, and move around helping with bonuses by staying within 3 hexes of the troops fighting (this hex range can be edited too).

There is a reason some people use more HQs in a link. And that is to gain supply range. As each HQ only has a limited range, having several in a row is a good thing on large maps.

But in general, there seldom is any need for more than 2 levels.

(in reply to Carl Rugenstein)
Post #: 2
RE: HQ Level Question - 9/8/2012 4:59:10 AM   
Jeffrey H.


Posts: 2518
Joined: 4/13/2007
From: San Diego, Ca.
Status: offline 		Great to see an enthusiastic person coming into ATG Carl, welcome. I'm not a good reference for the editor. Vic monitors the forums and is pretty good about responsivenes. Some of the other players like Tweber, Ernie, Bombur, Grymme, Lunaticus, Zaratoughda and forgive me if I foget some of the others. Those guys have really got some mileage from the editor.

Me, I'm more or less just a cheerleader for the time being.

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(in reply to ernieschwitz)
Post #: 3
RE: HQ Level Question - 9/8/2012 8:32:28 AM   
Josh

 

Posts: 1853
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Leeuwarden, Netherlands
Status: offline 		Ernieschwitz is right, basically four levels but you rarely use them all. My usual OOB would show three levels of HQ's. A Supreme HQ and a few (or more) subordinate HQ's (depending on how big the map is).
The 3 hexes radius Ernie talks about is the 100% HQ bonus a subordinate unit gets when within that radius... only addition is that the HQ bonus decreases with each added hex, so the fourth hex from the HQ would give a 80% bonus, a fifth hex 60% bonus, etc. A lvl II experienced HQ is a powerful weapon for sure, an experienced tank corps is nice but an experienced HQ is invaluable.

(in reply to Jeffrey H.)
Post #: 4
RE: HQ Level Question - 9/8/2012 9:15:58 AM   
bwheatley

 

Posts: 3256
Joined: 12/13/2004
Status: offline 		Yea in maps like WAW you need multiple HQ's just to channel supplies from your main HQ all around the base. Another neat feature of hq's is their ability to stockpile supplies. Which can be used in case you expect to be cut off from the outside world yet still wish to fight.

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(in reply to Josh)
Post #: 5
RE: HQ Level Question - 9/10/2012 4:57:44 AM   
Carl Rugenstein


Posts: 169
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hoosierland
Status: offline 		Hello All,

Thanks for the information on HQ's.

Another question regarding units. Does the game allow for a max amount of particular types of sub-formation(s) or a max amount of a subformation group within a unit? It appears that using production it is possible to pack as many of a particular subformation into a unit as you have available. I guess what I am asking is if it is possible to restrict a unit to no more than it's specified TOE?

Thanks,

Carl



< Message edited by Carl Rugenstein -- 9/10/2012 4:59:52 AM >

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“I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.” - Robert_McCloskey

(in reply to bwheatley)
Post #: 6
RE: HQ Level Question - 9/10/2012 11:05:49 AM   
Josh

 

Posts: 1853
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Leeuwarden, Netherlands
Status: offline 		Not sure if I've understood you correctly. There is no specified TOE, as in the game does not give a certain TOE, you are the one who decides/makes a unit's TOE. There is however a "limit" on the number of subformations in a unit, you are correct on that, but it is only because there is only room for the 8 pictures/depictions of these sub-units. It's the same with cargo ships and their cargo, no matter the cargo capacity of your fleet, it can never load more than 8 (or 6 I forgot) units because more units won't be displayed in the unit despription panel.
Having said that, most of us make units along classic lines, Tank unit, Inf unit, Tube unit etc. The AI tends to be a bit ... sloppy with this . So there you go, a max amount of 8 subunits per unit, *and* a stacking penalty if you go over 100 points per hex. So you could for instance put 100 Inf men in an Inf unit, that's 100x1 = 100 points, so no stacking penalty, and only one picture of an Inf men in the unit description.
There's another rule in the game and that is that you can only attack with 100 points from 1 or 2 hexes, 150 points if you attack from 3 hexes and so on. This is to prevent "killer-stacks" and to reflect the idea that too many troops only adds to the confusion and traffic jams.
So that's the idea, a max amount of 100 because of stacking rules (personally I prefer 50, so I can stack 2 units without stack penalty *and* have flexibility at the same time), a max amount of 8 subunits per unit (because of more subunit pics can't be displayed), and a build or TOE along classic lines; Tank, Inf, Mechanized Inf, Art, etc.

(in reply to Carl Rugenstein)
Post #: 7
RE: HQ Level Question - 9/10/2012 3:15:28 PM   
Carl Rugenstein


Posts: 169
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hoosierland
Status: offline 		Hello Josh,

Thanks for the response. My apologies. When I read back over my question I did not ask it very clearly.

What I'm basically asking is if there is anything available to keep a unit within bounds of a historically set TOE. For instance, German Infantry Divisions at one stage during WWII had a quantity of 36 105mm Howitzers and 12 155mm Howitzers. If I create a scenario and put these quantities of the two weapons in a unit then that unit will start with those quantities of those sub-formations. As time goes on lets say I've been able to produce 50 155mm Howitzers. It appears that the game system would allow me to put all 50 of my new 155mm Howitzers into the above mentioned unit resulting in it having 62 155mm Howitzers. Historically this could/would never be allowed to happen as the unit would be too far over it's authorized TOE. My question is basically if there is anything in the editor to prevent more than 12 155mm Howitzers from ever being put into the unit?

< Message edited by Carl Rugenstein -- 9/10/2012 3:44:22 PM >

_____________________________



“I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.” - Robert_McCloskey

(in reply to Josh)
Post #: 8
RE: HQ Level Question - 9/10/2012 4:20:24 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

Posts: 1083
Joined: 9/15/2009
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Quick Answer: NO

Although, you CAN make it impossible to transfer SFTs between units.

< Message edited by ernieschwitz -- 9/10/2012 4:21:02 PM >

(in reply to Carl Rugenstein)
Post #: 9
RE: HQ Level Question - 9/10/2012 6:23:44 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

Posts: 1083
Joined: 9/15/2009
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Perhaps i should clarify.

ATG has no chosen scale, in map size, nor in unit size. The defining is up to the creator of the scenario. And within those defined parameters the players are free to do what they want.

If you want to do something that requires you to be ahistorical, then you just go ahead and do that.

Also, the SFTs can be of any kind you can imagine. I´ve seen space games made with this game engine. Something that probably couldn´t be done if you had a restricted TO&E.

So, the quick answer is no, and the reason is probably a design decision.

(in reply to ernieschwitz)
Post #: 10
RE: HQ Level Question - 9/10/2012 6:39:42 PM   
Josh

 

Posts: 1853
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Leeuwarden, Netherlands
Status: offline 		No.

(well that's my shortest answer EVER)

Ofcourse in a Human-versus-Human game each player decides what his units gonna look like, more historical TOE or more gamey. There are some scenarios that are reasonably historic, Captain Cruft had a *huge* Ostfront scenario with a real authentic "Ostfront" feel. I have no information about how the AI handles this though, it tends to be a bit "russian wave" player.
Furthermore, the game uses a max bombardment penalty, more than 100 bombardment points and more than 100 aerial bombardment points, gets you a penalty, meaning every tube or bomber added is less effective. So a unit may be quite authentic and historic, but ineffective gamewise. Maybe you can change those rules in the editor... don't know about that either, never touched it.
This is one of my (very minor) squabbles with this game, I would like to see it more historic ... like the Decisive Campaign series Victor created. More actual equipment used at the time, and also be able to create historical units... via a template if that would be possible.

(in reply to ernieschwitz)
Post #: 11
RE: HQ Level Question - 9/10/2012 7:17:59 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

Posts: 1083
Joined: 9/15/2009
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Josh is right about the Penalties.

There are simply put it stackpoints on each hex, for artillery, air, and combat. (did i forget something?). These are set at 100 gamewise, but can be editted in the rulevars, as most everything else can. If you go over these limits effectiveness goes down, and casualties usually goes up (on your side).

For land combat, these limits go up too, with each extra hex you are attacking from. In the case of stock games they go up by 50 pr. hex, to a maximum of 300. This can also be changed in the rulevars.

But these penalties in general make you build your units somewhat historical.

(in reply to Josh)
Post #: 12
RE: HQ Level Question - 11/29/2012 11:32:03 PM   
CSO_Talorgan


Posts: 635
Joined: 3/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ernieschwitz

Although, you CAN make it impossible to transfer SFTs between units.


How?

(in reply to ernieschwitz)
Post #: 13
RE: HQ Level Question - 11/30/2012 2:29:00 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

Posts: 1083
Joined: 9/15/2009
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		There is a rulevar you can switch on that has that effect. :)

I have never dabbled with it, so i can´t tell you which one, without opening the editor and looking through all the rulevars.

(in reply to CSO_Talorgan)
Post #: 14
RE: HQ Level Question - 11/30/2012 8:58:19 PM   
CSO_Talorgan


Posts: 635
Joined: 3/10/2007
Status: offline 		OK

Cheers!

(in reply to ernieschwitz)
Post #: 15
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