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RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!!

 
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RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Olor... - 9/20/2012 11:19:24 AM   
821Bobo


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22.3. FIRST WINTER RULE
The following rules impact the Axis player in the section of the map area delineated by
coordinates X>72 or X>54 AND Y<95 during Blizzard turns in any scenario that includes the
months of December 1941 through February 1942.

First winter rule has no impact in November, you do not have to retreat.

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RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Olor... - 9/20/2012 3:37:17 PM   
terje439


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo

22.3. FIRST WINTER RULE
The following rules impact the Axis player in the section of the map area delineated by
coordinates X>72 or X>54 AND Y<95 during Blizzard turns in any scenario that includes the
months of December 1941 through February 1942.

First winter rule has no impact in November, you do not have to retreat.


Ah, did not think about that one, was too concerned with the term Blizzard, but you are ofc correct. Oh well, atleast it gives me a few turns to get my panzers to the rails and back to Germany.

Terje

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RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Olor... - 9/21/2012 11:04:26 AM   
terje439


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Turn 22

Overall
We take a small step westwards, but not before attacking as many weak USSR units as we can. Was hoping for more shatters than I got, but anything is better than naught, so not too bad.
Our 24 attacks caused 14 retreats, 7 routs and 3 shatters, nothing spectacular, but I'll take it.

Losses
USSR : 59.000 troops, 696 guns, 282 AFVs, 164 AC.
Axis : 27.000 troops, 190 guns, 53 AFVs, 40 AC.

USSR units destroyed
1 rifle division, 1 cavalry division and 1 howitzer regiment.

German pools
Manpower : 55
Vehicles : 161.858
Armaments : 29.462
Hiwi : 133.907

Advice sought after
Most of my panzer divisions are below strength, and I have reduced their Max TOE%, the question now, is do I put them back to 100 as soon as they get back to Germany, or do I delay untill January. The reason for this is ofc that alot of the panzers are discontinued in 12-41 (wait, or did my tired mind just play a trick on me??? Argh, should have learned by now to sleep before I do my turns...)?






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RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Olor... - 9/22/2012 9:05:18 AM   
terje439


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Turn 23

Overall
Nothing really changes, we rearrange the line, pull more panzers/mechanized/motorized divisions west, and make deliberate attacks where we have the MPs to do so. Only one shatter this turn though...
31 attacks gives us a result of 2 helds, 23 retreats and 6 routs this turn.

Losses
USSR : 63.000 troops, 912 guns, 227 AFVs, 208 AC.
Axis : 33.000 troops, 296 guns, 70 AFVs, 29 AC.

USSR units destroyed
1 rifle division.

German pools
Manpower : 89
Vehicles : 164.666
Armaments : 43.800
Hiwi : 134.554
I expect to see the armaments pool drop somewhat again now, as 3 panzer and 1 motorized unit have had their max TOE% raised from 50 to 100 again.

Thoughts
Must admit that atm I am considering the idea of pulling back to 3 hexes west of Riga all along the front, as that means no blizzard bonus, but this does seem overly gamey to me, so I probably will not.






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RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Olor... - 9/22/2012 2:10:06 PM   
terje439


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Turn 24

Overall
It seems the USSR units that are to be used during the blizzard have stepped up to the line. We kill more USSR troops this turn than the previous two, and the USSR CV have increased alot since last turn. So better buckle up now I guess as the blizzard will start in two turns (most likely). Three more panzer/motorized divisions are back west now.
24 deliberate attacks resulted in 21 retreats and 3 routs, no shatters this turn unfortunately

Losses
USSR : 94.000 troops, 1.212 guns, 279 AFVs, 257 AC.
Axis : 34.000 troops, 296 guns, 63 AFVs, 33 AC.

German pools
Manpower : 39
Vehicles : 168.375
Armaments : 53.133
Hiwi : 135.194







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RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Olor... - 9/23/2012 10:14:37 AM   
terje439


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Turn 25

Overall
Blizzard. Orders are given to fall back all along the front. Too bad we do not have too much territory to give up, and that we will have to fall back untill February...Somethign tells me that we will end at the "blizzard-area"-limits before this is over. We managed to pull another 5 motorized/panzer divisions back to Germany this turn. The frontline is growing shorter for every step back at the moment.

Losses
USSR : 32.000 troops, 171 guns, 35 AFVs, 55 AC.
Axis : 23.000 troops, 88 guns, 17 AFVs, 8 AC.

German pools
Manpower : 37
Vehicles : 167.339
Armaments : 53.993
Hiwi : 135.796







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Post #: 126
RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Olor... - 9/23/2012 12:32:25 PM   
Disgruntled Veteran


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You asked about Cavalry earlier. Your Cavalry division (now withdrawn) is one of your best divisions at start IMO. While not as strong as a 100% tank division it has good attack values against swamps, over rivers, and is great at establishing bridgeheads. Too bad he doesn't hang around around December.

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RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Olor... - 9/23/2012 3:04:04 PM   
terje439


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Disgruntled Veteran

You asked about Cavalry earlier. Your Cavalry division (now withdrawn) is one of your best divisions at start IMO. While not as strong as a 100% tank division it has good attack values against swamps, over rivers, and is great at establishing bridgeheads. Too bad he doesn't hang around around December.


Yes, I like it, it is also very useful due to the fact that it uses Inf-MP for attacking, and it has alot of MP, however with its armaments cost for reinforcements, it seems to be rather expensive to keep using if casualties are high.


Terje

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RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Olor... - 9/24/2012 1:43:21 PM   
terje439


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Turn 26

Overall
So far the results during the Blizzard is good, as the USSR only managed 2 attacks this turn (both retreats), but now I need to get my 8MP Inf divs onto rails so I can get them out of the danger (managed to get 2 away this turn).

Losses
USSR : 22.000 troops, 46 guns, 12 AFVs, 82 AC.
Axis : 57.000 troops, 92 guns, 22 AFVs, 5 AC.

German pools
Manpower : 24
Vehicles : 166.288
Armaments : 70.776
Hiwi : 136.017
(going to be nice when the Hiwi's are released into the units so we can get some manpower surplus again).







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RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Olor... - 9/24/2012 3:54:47 PM   
terje439


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Turn 27

Disclaimer
The print screen would not take this turn.

Overall
Nothing changes, we keep falling back to keep down the number of USSR attacks, although they did manage 6 this turn. Their score however were only 3 helds and 3 retreats. Our own too was 50-50, with two attacks generating 1 held and 1 retreat. Not a great score, but it will have to do.

Losses
USSR : 28.000 troops, 140 guns, 89 AFVs, 79 AC.
Axis : 69.000 troops, 100 guns, 17 AFVs, 11 AC.

German pools
Manpower : 229
Vehicles : 167.040
Armaments : 87.012
Hiwi : 136.168

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RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Olor... - 9/25/2012 12:21:39 AM   
Pelton

 

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Your line will break when your infantry morale tanks, it has nothing to do with manpower.

If you save your morale for 42, SHC morale will blow (40)

It can only rise if SHC wins battles.

Right now the game is set-up so holding Moscow is a complete an utter cake walk. Holding Leningrad is also easly holdable. The Tula south the SHC will give to GHC as you can only go so far.

The SHC players simply have to rail 50% of the units from the marsh south north. Then checker board the south ( railing out industry is another cake walk even I can do it in my first game).

The extra units in center mean Moscow will hold.

There has not been a single AAR after 1.06.13 where it has fallen.

Leningrad is also more then likely to hold in future games as SHC players will learn from the better ones.

Then we get to the blizzard, which is also a disaster waiting to happen for GHC as SHC is about 200% more powerful then was historical. the only troops that got pocketed during Dec-Feb were Russians heheh. Morons.


Your only chance in this game is to get past the blizzard effect line asap.

The only really really sad part is about this madness is 2by3 will nerf the GHc and not the SHC blizzard and completely destory what is left of the player base. The standard nee jerk recation is to nerf the GHC first then ask questions later.

Run you will hold out far longer then you did in your last game.

2by3 at this point is rewarding ballroom dancing more then fighting forward.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 9/25/2012 12:22:14 AM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

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RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Olor... - 9/25/2012 2:15:11 AM   
terje439


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Yes, the plan is to fall back to the blizard effect line and keep the USSR following to get them as far as possible away from their forts, however I think I might be in some trouble in the south allready, but we will see what can be done there.

As to blizzard effects, my main gripe is (as it is with all winters) that the rivers give no bonus for the defender. I live close to the biggest river in Norway, which in international standards is a small large river, yet it is up to 2 km wide in some areas. When it freezes, you can easily drive tanks across it, that is fine, however since we are talking a frozen river with snow on top of it, those tanks/inf etc have to cross those 2kms with no cover of any kind. So 2kms with no cover, and the defenders gets no bonus? Yup, that makes sense...

Another thing I have some issues with, as I also do with Witp is the fixed withdrawals of units. This happens no matter what. I understand that IRL those units did indeed withdraw, but would OKH have sent some of their more elite units to France in -43 if the USSR was in Poland in force? I think not. Would the Australians have sent their forces to Africa if the Japanese were occupying half of Oz? I think not. So what I would have loved to see, is some set of trigger.
Unit XXX will withdraw at turn YYY unless condition ZZZ is in effect, in which case it remains.

As to LG and Moscow olding in this game, that is all about poor play by me (think I am too fond of hasty attacks to keep speed up), and a heavy defensive investment in the north by Brad.
I am not the right player to say what is really poor design in this game as I do not have enough games under my belt, but right now I have a feeling that this game is all about manpower unfortunately.

That makes me wonder, has anyone found any use for city attacks by their bombers? I tried it in Brad and me's first game, sent the USSR bombers at Ploesti at the start, but it really did not do anything. Is the same true all along, or should the Germans start thinking about using city bombing in an attempt to target enemy factories?

Terje

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RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Olor... - 9/25/2012 3:18:17 AM   
terje439


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Turn 28

Overall
Will lose an infantry division next turn. Apart from that, we are falling back in good order. The 6 USSR attacks this turn resulted in 2 helds and 4 retreats.

Losses
USSR : 28.000 troops, 99 guns, 48 AFVs, 42 AC.
Axis : 69.000 troops, 138 guns, 25 AFVs, 3 AC.

German pools
Manpower : 25
Vehicle : 167.100
Armaments : 99.577
Hiwi : 136.231







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RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Olor... - 9/26/2012 12:58:41 PM   
terje439


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Turn 29

Overall
As expected, the south is giving me a headache, and AGS is the first of the three to lose a division. I am still somewhat scared about the situation down there, and it could quickly become a Stalingrad if I am not careful.
The USSR managed 7 attacks this turn for a total of 3 helds and 4 retreats. Goes without saying that those retreats were the battles where I needed holds, and the helds were battles where it would not matter one way or the other.
A good thing this turn is that the Hiwis "kicked in".
Somewhat more troubling is that we also had to deal with 3 partisans this turn. Annoying units. Not dangerous, but annoying.

Losses
USSR : 29.000 troops, 110 guns, 82 AFVs, 49 AC.
Axis : 70.000 troops, 126 guns, 21 AFVs, 36 AC.

German pools
Manpower : 38.068
Vehicles : 164.868
Armaments : 109.572
Hiwi : 25.904







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RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Olor... - 9/27/2012 12:51:52 PM   
terje439


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Turn 30

Overall
Going to lose yet another division it seems. That makes it 3 so far. No point in counterattacking since that is only burning my MPs, so better to just leave the division to die. Far more concerning is that the area between AGN and AGC is starting to look like a Swiss cheese. This could be really dangerous. Also not sure how we will do in the south, but I am seriously considering just abandoning another 4 divisions here and get the rest of the units to safety. Blizzard+low MP is a bad bad situation for Axis units...
The USSR only made two attacks this turn, causing 1 retreat (which means another lost division as mentioned above), and 1 surrender. We decided that hunting down a partisan was action enough.

Losses
USSR : 27.000 troops, 52 guns, 29 AFVs, 38 AC.
Axis : 62.000 troops, 193 guns, 19 AFVs, 11 AC.

Units lost
57th Infantry division.

German pools
Manpower : 22.012
Vehicles : 162.876
Armaments : 119.485
Hiwi : 5






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< Message edited by terje439 -- 9/28/2012 3:34:13 PM >


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RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Olor... - 9/28/2012 3:33:43 PM   
terje439


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Turn 31

Overall
Thank god there are only 6 turns of Blizzard madness remaining. Things are unravelling faster and faster, and I had to abandon 3 infantry divisions this turn.
The USSR made 7 attacks, scoring 1 held, 5 retreats and 1 surrender, while we were satisfied with chasing away a partisan.

Losses
USSR : 6.000 ???? troops, 112 guns, 30 AFVs, 23 AC.
Axis : 61.000 troops, 281 guns, 15 AFVs, 8 AC.

Units lost
96th Infantry Division

German pools
Manpower : 0
Vehicles : 160.527
Armaments : 133.016
Hiwi : 4

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RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Olor... - 9/28/2012 3:50:01 PM   
terje439


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Thoughts

The Blizzard is debated over and over, and there are indeed imo some issues that makes it somewhat OP for a good USSR player.
-the Germans inability to counterattack
-the extremely low German defensive CV
-the high mobility of the USSR units
-the low mobility of German units
This leads to a situation where an entire army can be jeopardized by two unlucky dice throws, and German losses are appaling if this happens.

What I was thinking was the following;
-give rivers defensive values even at winter (been saying this for a long time, I know)
-give German units a % chance each turn during the Blizzard to be "winterized" (to simulate the effort to make emergency deliveries of winter clothing, skis etc that actually took place), where their defensive CV is increased (not their offensive CV).

And I get that people think that the blizzard penalties are justified due to the German opening moves. Well, I have no issue with reducing the MPs on the German panzers on T1 (should remove the Lvov-pocket, rush to Riga etc) if this is what is needed to look at the Blizzard.

Anyway, just my tired brain thinking after making yet another blizzard turn as the Germans.
I also agree to the fact that better players will do better during Blizzard than me, and that there are issues I have myself to thank for.


Terje

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RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Olor... - 9/28/2012 4:51:14 PM   
mevstedt

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: terje439
As to blizzard effects, my main gripe is (as it is with all winters) that the rivers give no bonus for the defender. I live close to the biggest river in Norway, which in international standards is a small large river, yet it is up to 2 km wide in some areas. When it freezes, you can easily drive tanks across it, that is fine, however since we are talking a frozen river with snow on top of it, those tanks/inf etc have to cross those 2kms with no cover of any kind. So 2kms with no cover, and the defenders gets no bonus? Yup, that makes sense...

Another thing I have some issues with, as I also do with Witp is the fixed withdrawals of units. This happens no matter what. I understand that IRL those units did indeed withdraw, but would OKH have sent some of their more elite units to France in -43 if the USSR was in Poland in force? I think not. Would the Australians have sent their forces to Africa if the Japanese were occupying half of Oz? I think not. So what I would have loved to see, is some set of trigger.
Unit XXX will withdraw at turn YYY unless condition ZZZ is in effect, in which case it remains.


Agree with the point of frozen rivers tbh, atleast the major ones should give some sort of modifiers.

Fixed withdrawals of units in a game that may end up ahistorically has been debated among strategy game players and designers for as long as I have played them and probably long before that. I feel that there could or should have been a way to better take care of this, for instance by having an "emergency threshold" value be calculated which would allow you to override withdrawals if the game is on the line (ie as with your last game vs oloren).
The predecessors to WitE had the Western Front/Italian Front HQ units where you could freely transfer units back and forth iirc which in a game that goes off track compared to history would atleast make the game play out somewhat sensibly (ie Adolf wasn't the brightest kid on the block but even he would have realised the futility of camping in Normandy while the russians are barbequing on the Oder).



< Message edited by mevstedt -- 9/28/2012 4:52:30 PM >

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RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Olor... - 9/28/2012 5:24:13 PM   
Schmart

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mevstedt
Fixed withdrawals of units in a game that may end up ahistorically has been debated among strategy game players and designers for as long as I have played them and probably long before that. I feel that there could or should have been a way to better take care of this, for instance by having an "emergency threshold" value be calculated which would allow you to override withdrawals if the game is on the line (ie as with your last game vs oloren).


Regarding fixed withdrawls and that units should stay if things are worse, well the reverse can also be said. Who's to say Normandy or the Italian Campaign must proceed historically? Maybe those fronts could have collapsed sooner, or gone wrong quicker, etc, so that now OKH withdraws MORE units from the eastern front or has to withdraw them sooner.

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RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Olor... - 9/28/2012 5:31:45 PM   
terje439


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Schmart


quote:

ORIGINAL: mevstedt
Fixed withdrawals of units in a game that may end up ahistorically has been debated among strategy game players and designers for as long as I have played them and probably long before that. I feel that there could or should have been a way to better take care of this, for instance by having an "emergency threshold" value be calculated which would allow you to override withdrawals if the game is on the line (ie as with your last game vs oloren).


Regarding fixed withdrawls and that units should stay if things are worse, well the reverse can also be said. Who's to say Normandy or the Italian Campaign must proceed historically? Maybe those fronts could have collapsed sooner, or gone wrong quicker, etc, so that now OKH withdraws MORE units from the eastern front or has to withdraw them sooner.


Well, never seen Yanks or Brits outside Berlin, but HAVE seen the USSR there

No, it is a good and valid point, and ofc a problem with games that deals with one single theathre. However, I am not saying that units should not withdraw at the given dates, but if say the USSR has taken Warsaw in -43, I think units should be kept in the east. And that was my initial post about this, "Unit XXX will withdraw at turn YYY unless condition ZZZ is in effect, in which case it remains"


Terje

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RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Olor... - 9/28/2012 5:34:13 PM   
mevstedt

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Schmart

Regarding fixed withdrawls and that units should stay if things are worse, well the reverse can also be said. Who's to say Normandy or the Italian Campaign must proceed historically? Maybe those fronts could have collapsed sooner, or gone wrong quicker, etc, so that now OKH withdraws MORE units from the eastern front or has to withdraw them sooner.


As long as the game is modelled around historical outcome and it uses historical OOB (including historical withdrawals) you have to assume that any part of the war that is not specifically modelled in the game is progressing historically. For example, if the italian campaign would indeed go worse than historically, how come the Italians surrender on queue?

You can never expect the OKH to withdraw more units based on a "what if scenario"/ahistorical event when the game is supposed to be balanced in a way as to follow history somewhat. Otherwise we have to take into consideration a whole lot more such as for example "what if the japanese had invaded soviet union? lets withdraw half the soviet army and throw it out of the game!".

Essentially there is a difference between a "what if?"-scenario and a historical scenario using historical data taking into account ahistorical outcomes (such as allowing to override a nonsense withdrawal).

But I guess its ok to rebalance the game if the axis ends up in Leningrad and/or Moscow in 41 since that is clearly all because of game balance but it's wrong to do anything about the game if the russians are 50 miles from Berlin in 44?


< Message edited by mevstedt -- 9/28/2012 6:48:12 PM >

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Post #: 141
RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Olor... - 9/28/2012 8:54:34 PM   
Pelton

 

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The truth is the only major pockets formed during the 41/42 blizzard were germans pocketing Russians.

If the only reason for the Middle Earth blizzard is to balance out other bad parts of the game then its just a bad reason to add fiction to a historical game.

At some point 2by3 needs to address this sillyness.

Middle Earth weather effects should not be part of an historical game.

Nerf the +5 magic boots the SHC troops get to ware during December - February, also the windlords horse shoes need to be removed from the cav or is it windlors tracks from the lt tanks?



< Message edited by Pelton -- 9/28/2012 8:55:47 PM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

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Post #: 142
RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Olor... - 9/28/2012 9:27:50 PM   
Schmart

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: terje439
Well, never seen Yanks or Brits outside Berlin, but HAVE seen the USSR there

No, it is a good and valid point, and ofc a problem with games that deals with one single theathre. However, I am not saying that units should not withdraw at the given dates, but if say the USSR has taken Warsaw in -43, I think units should be kept in the east. And that was my initial post about this, "Unit XXX will withdraw at turn YYY unless condition ZZZ is in effect, in which case it remains"


I understand, but again, could we not also say that if the Germans occupy Lenningrad and Moscow, OKH would withdraw troops because things seem about wrapped up in Russia? Historically, the Germans did gear down a bit and start withdrawing/disbanding units in late 1941 because it looked like the Russians were close to collapse. So if the Axis capture and hold Moscow (or maybe better yet, if the Russians fall below 4 million men) meaning that the Axis are doing better than historical, then why shouldn't 3rd Panzer Army be sent to North Africa to help Rommel's drive to the Suez as a Russian collapse appears iminent? Of course the reverse is again possible: Rommel succeeds and OKH sends the Afrika Korps to the Russian Steppes...or Wacht Am Rhein succeeds in 1944, 21st British Army Group is annihilated and 1st Para Army is freed up for the east!

Also, it brings up gamey possibilities. Now the Russian player knows the Germans get to keep extra units if Warsaw falls before 1944, so he deliberately lets the Germans hold Warsaw to trigger those scheduled withdrawls... A gamey and non-historically plausible strategy.

One thing I would like to see with the scheduled withdrawls is a bit of variability, say withdraw +/- 5 turns, or something, so that players don't necessarily know exactly when a unit is schuduled to withdraw. Another idea someone brought up a while back was having holding boxes, where a player must keep XXX value CV units, or take a VP hit, or something like that. It's a good idea to spice up the withdrawl system, but it can be so situation specific and complex that it would be difficult to replicate a robust system. And then, how does an AI control it...

Personally, I've always figured that if I was doing better or worse in game, then in my mind I logically conclude that my other off map fronts are going similarly as good/bad also, so that they (psychologically) cancel out, and any pre-scripted withdrawls or other in game events are simply matched to other fronts. Example: Warsaw falls in 1943 and a couple SS Divisions are withdrawn a couple turns later? I would think "Well, damn, the Italian Front obviously had a really bad collapse and the Allies are close to crossing the Alps, and holy crap, the war is really going bad for us right now!" I guess I just roll with it and have a little historical fun with it at the same time. No biggie.

< Message edited by Schmart -- 9/28/2012 9:29:34 PM >

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Post #: 143
RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Olor... - 9/28/2012 10:38:25 PM   
mevstedt

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Schmart
Also, it brings up gamey possibilities. Now the Russian player knows the Germans get to keep extra units if Warsaw falls before 1944, so he deliberately lets the Germans hold Warsaw to trigger those scheduled withdrawls... A gamey and non-historically plausible strategy.


This could be a very possible scenario if such a rule would be too simple which, is in my case, I'd base it more on certain triggers and then do a front ratio calculation closer to what the AI uses to decide whether it should be offensive or defensive (to prevent a lone russian cav unit strolling into warsaw triggering a situation where no german units are ever withdrawn). Or the other way around, what about the germans trying to force a soviet unit from the Bialystok pocket of -41 to retreat into warsaw to trigger it so he will get to keep all the SS-panzers :P.

A short example of how it could work in theory: The "emergency threshold" starts to be calculated when one of a set of triggers happen such as a romanian surrender prior to some date (6/43 for example) or if the russians capture warsaw say in summer 43 and so on. Once it has triggered the "threshold" is calculated as a ratio between combat units of the axis vs soviets and if the value is too scewed it would (preferebly) postpone withdrawals up until the point when the front line has stabilized, this does ofcourse not mean that the front line ratios should be equal before postponed units would withdrawn but rather just play a role up until a point when a satisfactory (semi historical) ratio have been reached.

Anyway, in essence this is a rule to cover for ahistorical cases just as there are rules written that handle ahistorical cases like Romanian/Hungarian surrender rules or the "Axis takes Leningrad so finns can assume offensive operations" rule.

As for the soviet situation it would require a different ruleset, including the "what if the germans hold both Leningrad/Moscow" case because the soviets are in an emergency from the get go on June 41. As an aside though I have played strategy games with conditional arrivals/withdrawals such as "if the germans control this/these locations on or after this date these units are released/withdrawn etc" and so on (with conditionals for some russians as well). Most of the time I believe the scenario designers (in this game) implement these cases with the use of frozen units such as transcaucasus front/italians in yugoslavia and so on.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Schmart
One thing I would like to see with the scheduled withdrawls is a bit of variability, say withdraw +/- 5 turns, or something, so that players don't necessarily know exactly when a unit is schuduled to withdraw. Another idea someone brought up a while back was having holding boxes, where a player must keep XXX value CV units, or take a VP hit, or something like that. It's a good idea to spice up the withdrawl system, but it can be so situation specific and complex that it would be difficult to replicate a robust system. And then, how does an AI control it...


The holding box is actually something I have been thinking about as well, mainly since when I play Axis I end up in a situation where I prioritize units that will not be withdrawn above those with withdrawal dates. This plays a role in many ways but for example if I have two divisions lined up for a simple attack in the early campaign (ie knowing I will win), which unit should I attack with if I have to choose? Then if one has withdrawal date and the other do not, then I will hope the morale boost goes to the unit that will remain on the mapboard over the course of the game. The same goes for withdrawal of panzer/motorized units during blizzard for example, it's like: Which units are not being withdrawn? Ok, those... Send those home to germany and the rest can spend the winter in russia.

I recognise this to be somewhat gamey as it uses knowledge I should not historically have and would probably have been better off with the example of a withdrawal box where I need to move a certain type of unit into before a specified date or just randomize the withdrawal overall as in "1 panzer division should get removed, pick one at random and do it fast!!". Point is, by knowing which exact unit is to be withdrawn and when, I have knowledge that my counterpart in history did not have and I can use and abuse that knowledge in several ways. Another example being the reduction of max TOE% 6 turns before withdrawal dates or the commitment of units that are to be withdrawn in "banzai" like kamikaze attacks, the Italians in 1943 followed Bushido, didn't they? Mine do anyway...



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RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Olor... - 9/29/2012 8:13:39 AM   
terje439


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Turn 32

Overall
God I hate Blizzard (no, not the makers of WoW....Well them too actually ).
Anyway, we keep falling back, but this turn I cannot move back more than one hex, so the number of USSR attacks should be higher next turn. It was either that or lose half AGS...
The USSR made 8 attacks, resulting in 3 helds, 4 retreats and 1 surrender, while we made two attacks, scoring 1 held and 1 retreat. Oh, and we scared a partisan as well.

Losses
USSR : 42.000 troops, 218 guns, 74 AFVs, 37 AC.
Axis : 55.000 troops, 285 guns, 21 AFVs, 14 AC.

Units lost
162nd Infantry Division

German pools
Manpower : 26
Vehicles : 159.561
Armaments : 150.976
Hiwi : 3

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RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Olor... - 9/29/2012 8:18:28 AM   
terje439


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Schmart

quote:

ORIGINAL: terje439
Well, never seen Yanks or Brits outside Berlin, but HAVE seen the USSR there

No, it is a good and valid point, and ofc a problem with games that deals with one single theathre. However, I am not saying that units should not withdraw at the given dates, but if say the USSR has taken Warsaw in -43, I think units should be kept in the east. And that was my initial post about this, "Unit XXX will withdraw at turn YYY unless condition ZZZ is in effect, in which case it remains"


I understand, but again, could we not also say that if the Germans occupy Lenningrad and Moscow, OKH would withdraw troops because things seem about wrapped up in Russia? Historically, the Germans did gear down a bit and start withdrawing/disbanding units in late 1941 because it looked like the Russians were close to collapse. So if the Axis capture and hold Moscow (or maybe better yet, if the Russians fall below 4 million men) meaning that the Axis are doing better than historical, then why shouldn't 3rd Panzer Army be sent to North Africa to help Rommel's drive to the Suez as a Russian collapse appears iminent? Of course the reverse is again possible: Rommel succeeds and OKH sends the Afrika Korps to the Russian Steppes...or Wacht Am Rhein succeeds in 1944, 21st British Army Group is annihilated and 1st Para Army is freed up for the east!

Also, it brings up gamey possibilities. Now the Russian player knows the Germans get to keep extra units if Warsaw falls before 1944, so he deliberately lets the Germans hold Warsaw to trigger those scheduled withdrawls... A gamey and non-historically plausible strategy.

One thing I would like to see with the scheduled withdrawls is a bit of variability, say withdraw +/- 5 turns, or something, so that players don't necessarily know exactly when a unit is schuduled to withdraw. Another idea someone brought up a while back was having holding boxes, where a player must keep XXX value CV units, or take a VP hit, or something like that. It's a good idea to spice up the withdrawl system, but it can be so situation specific and complex that it would be difficult to replicate a robust system. And then, how does an AI control it...

Personally, I've always figured that if I was doing better or worse in game, then in my mind I logically conclude that my other off map fronts are going similarly as good/bad also, so that they (psychologically) cancel out, and any pre-scripted withdrawls or other in game events are simply matched to other fronts. Example: Warsaw falls in 1943 and a couple SS Divisions are withdrawn a couple turns later? I would think "Well, damn, the Italian Front obviously had a really bad collapse and the Allies are close to crossing the Alps, and holy crap, the war is really going bad for us right now!" I guess I just roll with it and have a little historical fun with it at the same time. No biggie.


Hmm, rested and after some hours of sleep, I agree with what you are saying, but I am still on the "not a fan of scheduled withdrawals in GG games"-side
The entire problem arises as a game goes really askew from RL events. And let us be honest, the USSR does not have to follow those rules. Want an all out mechanized army? Be my guest. Want nothing but cavalry? Sure, go ahead.
Not saying that would be a CLEVER thing to do, but you can do it

But, there will always be something some people (like me) will never be happy about I suppose (like my 250 Tigers standing outside the factory not to be deployed to the worn down panzer divisions because Tigers are for heavy tank companies only ).


Terje

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RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Olor... - 9/30/2012 3:36:22 AM   
Tophat1812

 

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What is the breakdown so far on your divisional losses for blizzard?

It's still far better than the 20+ you lost last game!

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Post #: 147
RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Olor... - 9/30/2012 4:15:13 PM   
terje439


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tophat1812

What is the breakdown so far on your divisional losses for blizzard?

It's still far better than the 20+ you lost last game!


3, and think I will lose atleast another 3...

Terje

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RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Olor... - 10/1/2012 6:12:56 PM   
terje439


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Turn 33

Overall
The number of lost divisions is doubled this turn, as we lose another 3...
The USSR manage 12 attacks this turn, scoring 10 retreats and 2 surrenders, while we score 1 rout with our one attack. We also hunt down a partisan (well, actually we retreat into a partisan ).

Losses
USSR : 14.000 troops, 188 guns, 170 AFVs, 44 AC.
Axis : 80.000 troops, 667 guns, 53 AFVs, 13 AC.

Units lost
The 76th, 126th and the 198th Infantry Divisions are all lost this turn.

German pools
Manpower : 5
Vehicles : 161.417
Armaments : 168.144
Hiwi : 9







Attachment (1)

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RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Olor... - 10/2/2012 9:56:58 AM   
terje439


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Turn 34

Disclaimer
Sorry for the short postings, but during Blizzard there just is not much to post, as it is all about falling back. But if there is something in peculiar you want to see, just ask.

Overall
Has to be considered a good turn for the Axis considering it is Blizzard. The USSR launched more attacks than earlier, but they ended up losing more troops than me. 24 USSR attacks resulted in 9 helds, 14 retreats and 1 rout, while our 1 attack scored a rout. We also ran into 2 partisans and forced them to flee.
Apart from that, nothing major happening, we fall back where we can (which is starting to be in only a handful of places), and the USSR keeps pushing...Thankfully the Blizzard is coming to and end...
The bad news is ofc that we are now back at T2 locations (T1 in some places) .

Losses
USSR : 65.000 troops, 411 guns, 122 AFVs, 73 AC.
Axis : 53.000 troops, 293 guns, 15 AFVs, 19 AC.

German pools
Manpower : 0
Vehicles : 164.253
Armaments : 180.019
Hiwi : 6






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by terje439 -- 10/2/2012 9:57:48 AM >


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