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Allied Supply to the Western Map

 
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Allied Supply to the Western Map - 8/28/2012 4:15:01 PM   
wadail


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Australia is a giant V12 gas guzzler that seems to be all but impossible to keep properly supplied, especially with fuel. Efforts to ferry troops to Port Moresby and beyond stall because the Southwest Pacific transports sit in port with no fuel. South Pacific and Southwest Pacific are constantly at odds for transports and fuel (yes, I know this is historical, but my armchair admiral aim is to perform better than historical ;p).

Are there any supply tips for the allies for the Commonwealth areas? Thus far here are some ideas I've had on my own:

1) Secure a source of oil and dedicate some tankers to hauling it to the refinery in Melbourne.

2) Keep a large number of cargo ships and some tankers (this is eased later in the war when AKs have some fuel storage in addition to cargo) to haul the contents of supply convoys from South Africa to Australia and Ceylon. Resist the temptation to dump too many cargo ships in Columbo and keep enough ships stationed in South Africa, Aden, etc to move those supplies out. Also, be sure to dump supplies at Indian ports near Burma to help with overland supply (and be cautious about telling a base to hoarde supplies as it can interfere with the overland flow).

3) Use an AK ferry convoy system with the CS: Fuel and CS: Supply to move LARGE amounts of supply from the US west coast and Commonwealth supply points to "depots" (I HATE that COLUMBO, as an automatic convoy source must itself be supplied) and then use AKLs to augment the Automatic convoy system. For example, use Automatic Convoys from Columbo to supply SE Asia, but turn it off for the Australian West Map bases and run large convoys from Cape Town to Perth, then smaller CS: convoys to distribute from Perth to other Australian ports as needed. A note: Be sure to build and staff the port to avoid spoilage. Also, there are not enough tankers to do this for fuel. 1-2 ports need to be beefed up enough that there is no spoilage and then used as refueling stations. I like to set up computer controlled, Reaction 6, ASW TFs and station them all along a coastline, so I guess the overland and automatic convoy system will have to see to their needs, which should be minimal. Be sure to put fuel at the destination if the convoy cannot make it out and back on its fuel load and tell it to refuel only enough to make it back to port. If it can make it all the way out, be sure to tell it not to refuel at all in the war area to avoid using up precious fuel that is needed by warships and transports.



< Message edited by wadail -- 8/28/2012 4:24:33 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Allied Supply to the Western Map - 8/28/2012 4:41:02 PM   
mjk428

 

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The latest patch added the option to turn off production for the Allies. Turn off heavy industry in the larger cities and you won't have the problem any longer. You also now have the option to stockpile fuel (& supply) in your bases.

Before the patch I just let OZ run dry and stockedpiled fuel in Hobart, Aukland & Vava'u.

(in reply to wadail)
Post #: 2
RE: Allied Supply to the Western Map - 8/28/2012 5:23:43 PM   
jmalter

 

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1) once DEI falls, there's really no source for Oil. although USA has no excess oil production, you'll amass 1 million fuel in San Francisco fairly quickly. when you reach that target, turn off the USA/Canada refineries for 9 days, the oil will pool in Los Angeles, after 9 days you'll amass a quarter-million oil there. this must be tankered to Sydney, but will keep Oz Refineries working for 3 years or so.

2) i use Cape Town as a supply-hub, but there's a danger of running it dry of fuel. on-map convoys arriving at CT should be set to do not refuel, and supply convoys departing CT should be set for minimum refuel, they'll only take on what they need to make the round-trip to their destination (+10%). even w/ this fuel rationing, i'm running 2/3rds of my xAK convoys from East Coast > CT w/ half-loads of fuel.

< Message edited by jmalter -- 8/28/2012 5:26:42 PM >

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RE: Allied Supply to the Western Map - 8/28/2012 10:41:58 PM   
rms1pa

 

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quote:

2) i use Cape Town as a supply-hub, but there's a danger of running it dry of fuel. on-map convoys arriving at CT should be set to do not refuel, and supply convoys departing CT should be set for minimum refuel, they'll only take on what they need to make the round-trip to their destination (+10%). even w/ this fuel rationing, i'm running 2/3rds of my xAK convoys from East Coast > CT w/ half-loads of fuel.


unless a TK or AO appears at an off map port i do not load fuel any where but Abadan or Los Angeles. i only run short of fuel at Aden generaly.

rms/pa

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RE: Allied Supply to the Western Map - 8/29/2012 4:26:52 AM   
Dan Nichols


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In order to keep Capetown supplied with fuel, I send xAKs on CS missions from CT to one of the major ports in India and set it to return fuel. I usually move 150,000 supply per month to India and 75,000 fuel back to CT.

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RE: Allied Supply to the Western Map - 8/29/2012 6:10:01 AM   
jmalter

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan Nichols
In order to keep Capetown supplied with fuel, I send xAKs on CS missions from CT to one of the major ports in India and set it to return fuel. I usually move 150,000 supply per month to India and 75,000 fuel back to CT.

that's a nice scheme, Dan - i'm gonna try it out. Currently i've got Ceylon awash w/ fuel from CS TKs on the short-haul Abadan > Karachi & Madras > Trincomalee routes, it's fairly easy to keep these paths clean of sub activity.

but the long haul (TKs Colombo > Perth) has been problematic, they haveta take a big elbow to the west to avoid enemy air from Sumatra, & several convoys have been thoroughly monstered by roving miniKB action SE of Diego Garcia.

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RE: Allied Supply to the Western Map - 8/29/2012 2:04:18 PM   
hbrsvl

 

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mjk428- Just to make sure, what is the latest patch # you refer to?

Thanks, Hugh Browne

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Post #: 7
RE: Allied Supply to the Western Map - 8/29/2012 4:06:35 PM   
witpqs


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The bit about turning off industry in Australia is the worst suggestion when playing PBM against a human. Against the AI, do what you like. Against a human it's one of the constraints that you should be saddled with overcoming.

Being aware of the need for maybe 70,000 fuel per month in Australia for industry is the biggest part of solving the problem. Lots of options for that presented in this thread already, and of course making certain that Cape Town has enough fuel to keep troop and supply ships moving from there.

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RE: Allied Supply to the Western Map - 8/29/2012 6:19:40 PM   
Justus2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

The bit about turning off industry in Australia is the worst suggestion when playing PBM against a human. Against the AI, do what you like. Against a human it's one of the constraints that you should be saddled with overcoming.



Are you saying this from a play balance point of view, or is there some other detriment to shutting off the industry? Just want to make sure I understand. Haven't seen it mentioned in HRs for AARs, but is this an unwritten rule most abide by? Still learning against AI myself, but I don't want to pick up any bad habits that will make it harder to transition to PBEM.


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RE: Allied Supply to the Western Map - 8/29/2012 7:29:35 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Justus2


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

The bit about turning off industry in Australia is the worst suggestion when playing PBM against a human. Against the AI, do what you like. Against a human it's one of the constraints that you should be saddled with overcoming.



Are you saying this from a play balance point of view, or is there some other detriment to shutting off the industry? Just want to make sure I understand. Haven't seen it mentioned in HRs for AARs, but is this an unwritten rule most abide by? Still learning against AI myself, but I don't want to pick up any bad habits that will make it harder to transition to PBEM.


Personal opinion: In a PBM it would be unfair unless your opponent had agreed to it. YMMV.

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Post #: 10
RE: Allied Supply to the Western Map - 8/29/2012 7:31:27 PM   
mjk428

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hbrsvl

mjk428- Just to make sure, what is the latest patch # you refer to?

Thanks, Hugh Browne


Official release: 1.0.6.1108r9 Jan 21 2012

Turning off production is a feature added by michaelm during the beta process in 2011 and the feature remains in the latest official release above. I know some folks think it's gamey to turn it off, and they may be right, but if I ship fuel to Brisbane from the West Coast for fleet use the civvies can't just steal it. Without being gamey one can achieve much the same effect by just stockpiling fuel in a base without heavy industry (or shutting it off in just one base like the aforementioned Brisbane. Base stockpiling is another wonderful feature added by the wonderful michaelm. :)

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Post #: 11
RE: Allied Supply to the Western Map - 8/29/2012 7:36:22 PM   
mjk428

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

The bit about turning off industry in Australia is the worst suggestion when playing PBM against a human. Against the AI, do what you like. Against a human it's one of the constraints that you should be saddled with overcoming.


Yeah because Japanese PBEM players don't alter their production at all.

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Post #: 12
RE: Allied Supply to the Western Map - 8/29/2012 7:48:51 PM   
mjk428

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Justus2


Are you saying this from a play balance point of view, or is there some other detriment to shutting off the industry? Just want to make sure I understand. Haven't seen it mentioned in HRs for AARs, but is this an unwritten rule most abide by? Still learning against AI myself, but I don't want to pick up any bad habits that will make it harder to transition to PBEM.



There's no reason to believe that OZ sucking up all the fuel for phantom production was intentionally added to AE as a problem to overcome (this didn't happen in the original WitP). If it was intentional then letting OZ run dry should have severe negative consequences. It doesn't. So the obvious solution before the patch was just to just put the fuel in other places like Hobart & Aukland. Also, if this was meant to be why was the ability added to turn off production for the Allies? It's purely a convenience and doesn't give the Allies any unfair advantages IMO. Others obviously disagree.


< Message edited by mjk428 -- 8/29/2012 7:49:24 PM >

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Post #: 13
RE: Allied Supply to the Western Map - 8/29/2012 8:32:41 PM   
Sardaukar


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It's not too difficult to keep Oz supplied with fuel. Can run TK convoys from both Cape Town to Perth and LA to Sydney. Just have to keep an eye not to dry Cape Town.

Just that if KB gets to those big fuel convoys....



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RE: Allied Supply to the Western Map - 8/29/2012 8:38:09 PM   
Mundy


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Unless you lose your USN CVs early and have an opponent obsessed with distributing KB everywhere for anti-commerce missions.

Oz is burning cow dung for cooking meals right now.

Ed-

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RE: Allied Supply to the Western Map - 8/29/2012 8:54:06 PM   
aphrochine


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I've not had many issues keeping Australia supplied with fuel. I do not bother with Oil, just fuel.

Without going into too great of detail, just put together a series of large convoys. From the west coast, you need 3-4 large 100K capacity fuel convoys as a minimum. If you bring in more from CT, you can suffer fewer convoys from the West Coast.

Also, I'd recommend you not use Australian bases as major transport hubs if possible. That's what large islands are for, where you dont have to worry about industry siphoning fuel away from your fleet operations if you stockpile fuel at Pago or other appropriately safe island.

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RE: Allied Supply to the Western Map - 8/30/2012 9:09:17 AM   
Sardaukar


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Remember that you can also transport fuel with xAKs, just that they don't load fully. Allies have shortage of tankers/oilers until 1943, but plenty of xAKs.

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RE: Allied Supply to the Western Map - 8/30/2012 12:20:17 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justus2


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

The bit about turning off industry in Australia is the worst suggestion when playing PBM against a human. Against the AI, do what you like. Against a human it's one of the constraints that you should be saddled with overcoming.



Are you saying this from a play balance point of view, or is there some other detriment to shutting off the industry? Just want to make sure I understand. Haven't seen it mentioned in HRs for AARs, but is this an unwritten rule most abide by? Still learning against AI myself, but I don't want to pick up any bad habits that will make it harder to transition to PBEM.


Personal opinion: In a PBM it would be unfair unless your opponent had agreed to it. YMMV.



it would only be unfair if the Japanese would have to supply their non military economy, which they don't have to. HI isn't needed as the Allied so feeding the HI in Australia can only be seen as non military. Neither can the Allied change any replacement rates while the Japanese can literally do whatever they want. Economy wise there is so much in favour of the Japanese already that speaking of being "unfair" when turning off Australia's HI seems a bit too much to me.

< Message edited by castor troy -- 8/30/2012 12:22:48 PM >


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RE: Allied Supply to the Western Map - 9/3/2012 2:37:45 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

it would only be unfair if the Japanese would have to supply their non military economy, which they don't have to. HI isn't needed as the Allied so feeding the HI in Australia can only be seen as non military. Neither can the Allied change any replacement rates while the Japanese can literally do whatever they want. Economy wise there is so much in favour of the Japanese already that speaking of being "unfair" when turning off Australia's HI seems a bit too much to me.


OK - now I am confused about the role of HI in Australia. Isn't Aussie HI needed to produce Aussie reinforcements (new and replacement devices, aircraft, vehicles)? Does a surplus of HI elsewhere on the map somehow find its way to Oz and keep their war industry going?? Just walking away from the fuel/HI/production issues in Oz seems a bit too simplistic for a PacWar simulator. Surely there is some consequence to not supplying fuel to Oz?

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RE: Allied Supply to the Western Map - 9/3/2012 4:00:54 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

it would only be unfair if the Japanese would have to supply their non military economy, which they don't have to. HI isn't needed as the Allied so feeding the HI in Australia can only be seen as non military. Neither can the Allied change any replacement rates while the Japanese can literally do whatever they want. Economy wise there is so much in favour of the Japanese already that speaking of being "unfair" when turning off Australia's HI seems a bit too much to me.


OK - now I am confused about the role of HI in Australia. Isn't Aussie HI needed to produce Aussie reinforcements (new and replacement devices, aircraft, vehicles)? Does a surplus of HI elsewhere on the map somehow find its way to Oz and keep their war industry going?? Just walking away from the fuel/HI/production issues in Oz seems a bit too simplistic for a PacWar simulator. Surely there is some consequence to not supplying fuel to Oz?



nope, you do not need Allied HI for anything, all replacements are fixed and come regardless of HI. All your HI does in Australia is using up precious fuel to produce some HI points (which you don't need) and supply which you should be swimming in anyway. Someone mentioned you "only" need 70,000 fuel for your Aussie HI per month. Now if we go with roughly 300,000 tanker capacity in 42 that should be available on the West Coast (without any losses) and it takes a convoy 1 month to get from LA to Sydney if you use somewhat safe shipping lanes, then Australia's HI drains 50% of the USN tanker capacity non stop.

Why? Because a 150,000 ton tanker convoy needs roughly two months to do the trip from the West Coast and back (plus loading/unloading/repairs/upgrades). I got no real life numbers but I seriously doubt that 50% of the US tankers were used to supply Australia's economy with fuel.

< Message edited by castor troy -- 9/3/2012 4:02:24 PM >


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RE: Allied Supply to the Western Map - 9/3/2012 5:10:12 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

it would only be unfair if the Japanese would have to supply their non military economy, which they don't have to. HI isn't needed as the Allied so feeding the HI in Australia can only be seen as non military. Neither can the Allied change any replacement rates while the Japanese can literally do whatever they want. Economy wise there is so much in favour of the Japanese already that speaking of being "unfair" when turning off Australia's HI seems a bit too much to me.


OK - now I am confused about the role of HI in Australia. Isn't Aussie HI needed to produce Aussie reinforcements (new and replacement devices, aircraft, vehicles)? Does a surplus of HI elsewhere on the map somehow find its way to Oz and keep their war industry going?? Just walking away from the fuel/HI/production issues in Oz seems a bit too simplistic for a PacWar simulator. Surely there is some consequence to not supplying fuel to Oz?



nope, you do not need Allied HI for anything, all replacements are fixed and come regardless of HI. All your HI does in Australia is using up precious fuel to produce some HI points (which you don't need) and supply which you should be swimming in anyway. Someone mentioned you "only" need 70,000 fuel for your Aussie HI per month. Now if we go with roughly 300,000 tanker capacity in 42 that should be available on the West Coast (without any losses) and it takes a convoy 1 month to get from LA to Sydney if you use somewhat safe shipping lanes, then Australia's HI drains 50% of the USN tanker capacity non stop.

Why? Because a 150,000 ton tanker convoy needs roughly two months to do the trip from the West Coast and back (plus loading/unloading/repairs/upgrades). I got no real life numbers but I seriously doubt that 50% of the US tankers were used to supply Australia's economy with fuel.



Thus, begs to question, why bother to ship any fuel to OZ at all? Just ship supply when needed and forgot about Australian industry. You simply do not need it. Fuel shiped to OZ to run industry is just a wasted resource. Ship fuel to OZ to gas up your carriers and BBs. So store it in bases that are isolated. Allied fanboys, why would you want to complicate your "easy" life?

Take it from me and heed Caster Troy's words. I have three years of campaiging as the Allies and know for certain that unless you have managed to lose the entire West Coast of the US then you need never look at Australian industry. Never...... No seriously, never....

< Message edited by crsutton -- 9/3/2012 5:12:42 PM >


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RE: Allied Supply to the Western Map - 9/3/2012 8:10:53 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

it would only be unfair if the Japanese would have to supply their non military economy, which they don't have to. HI isn't needed as the Allied so feeding the HI in Australia can only be seen as non military. Neither can the Allied change any replacement rates while the Japanese can literally do whatever they want. Economy wise there is so much in favour of the Japanese already that speaking of being "unfair" when turning off Australia's HI seems a bit too much to me.


OK - now I am confused about the role of HI in Australia. Isn't Aussie HI needed to produce Aussie reinforcements (new and replacement devices, aircraft, vehicles)? Does a surplus of HI elsewhere on the map somehow find its way to Oz and keep their war industry going?? Just walking away from the fuel/HI/production issues in Oz seems a bit too simplistic for a PacWar simulator. Surely there is some consequence to not supplying fuel to Oz?


Allied on map industry follows the same rules as Japanese on map production. The only difference is that the Allied player Allied player can not


  • expand a secondary industry facility
  • convert a secondary industry facility to another use
  • produce some secondary industry products at all


and therefore the ability to fine tune Allied industry is severely limited.

Just as it is for Japan, it therefore follows that all surplus Allied Heavy Industry points are stored in a general pool which is not location specific. More importantly, all Allied on map aircraft production consumes Heavy Industry points. Run out of Heavy Industry points and no more on map production of Allied planes will occur.

There is no on map production of Allied devices. Allied device production is therefore not dependent on the production output of Allied on map secondary industry.

Alfred

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Post #: 22
RE: Allied Supply to the Western Map - 9/3/2012 10:38:53 PM   
Encircled


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Agree with the stockpiling fuel outside of Oz

I run a lot of ships running between Eastern USA to Capetown (suggestion by Bullwinkle?) and as long as you keep an eye on it, you can run keep a reasonable amount coming in that way. I think you've got to run the West coast to Oz as well, but I've not really got enough experience to say that for sure.

One thing is for sure, you have to do a fair bit of micro management, and you've got to keep an eye on the refuel status. Having a massive fuel convoy refuel completely in Sydney or Perth really, really, really can cheese you off!

Oh, and turning off Oz heavy industry strikes me as gamey as hell, and I wouldn't do it

< Message edited by Encircled -- 9/3/2012 10:39:39 PM >

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Post #: 23
RE: Allied Supply to the Western Map - 9/4/2012 1:40:13 AM   
Justus2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Agree with the stockpiling fuel outside of Oz

I run a lot of ships running between Eastern USA to Capetown (suggestion by Bullwinkle?) and as long as you keep an eye on it, you can run keep a reasonable amount coming in that way. I think you've got to run the West coast to Oz as well, but I've not really got enough experience to say that for sure.

One thing is for sure, you have to do a fair bit of micro management, and you've got to keep an eye on the refuel status. Having a massive fuel convoy refuel completely in Sydney or Perth really, really, really can cheese you off!

Oh, and turning off Oz heavy industry strikes me as gamey as hell, and I wouldn't do it


But what's the difference between turning off the HI (allowing the fuel to be used for naval instead of industry) and stockpiling fuel outside of Oz (allowing the fuel to be used for naval instead of industry). Seems like a difference without a difference. If you ship enough to Oz to fuel all the industry, then you may as well stockpile the naval fuel there too, since you have enough to run the industry, the rest won't get sucked in. If you are just going to starve it of fuel, then why not save the trouble and just turn it off?

Not trying to be argumentative, I haven't gotten that far in a game to really experience how much of a difference it makes, so I really want to understand better. And I know I read all the time about Japan turning off armament production, adjusting industry expansion, etc, so I don't see how it's so much gamier (gameyer? new word) for the Allies to adjust their industry based on how much HI they need or don't need at a given point. Unless the HR would be that neither Japan or Allies could shut off industry/production centers.

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Post #: 24
RE: Allied Supply to the Western Map - 9/4/2012 5:21:52 AM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Agree with the stockpiling fuel outside of Oz

I run a lot of ships running between Eastern USA to Capetown (suggestion by Bullwinkle?) and as long as you keep an eye on it, you can run keep a reasonable amount coming in that way. I think you've got to run the West coast to Oz as well, but I've not really got enough experience to say that for sure.

One thing is for sure, you have to do a fair bit of micro management, and you've got to keep an eye on the refuel status. Having a massive fuel convoy refuel completely in Sydney or Perth really, really, really can cheese you off!

Oh, and turning off Oz heavy industry strikes me as gamey as hell, and I wouldn't do it



No need to turn it off. There is a shortage of oil and you will not produce supply to your maximum level but you still produce supply in OZ. Unless the fighting is very heavy it is more than you will need. As I said, just leave it alone.

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RE: Allied Supply to the Western Map - 9/4/2012 5:26:49 AM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Justus2


quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Agree with the stockpiling fuel outside of Oz

I run a lot of ships running between Eastern USA to Capetown (suggestion by Bullwinkle?) and as long as you keep an eye on it, you can run keep a reasonable amount coming in that way. I think you've got to run the West coast to Oz as well, but I've not really got enough experience to say that for sure.

One thing is for sure, you have to do a fair bit of micro management, and you've got to keep an eye on the refuel status. Having a massive fuel convoy refuel completely in Sydney or Perth really, really, really can cheese you off!

Oh, and turning off Oz heavy industry strikes me as gamey as hell, and I wouldn't do it


But what's the difference between turning off the HI (allowing the fuel to be used for naval instead of industry) and stockpiling fuel outside of Oz (allowing the fuel to be used for naval instead of industry). Seems like a difference without a difference. If you ship enough to Oz to fuel all the industry, then you may as well stockpile the naval fuel there too, since you have enough to run the industry, the rest won't get sucked in. If you are just going to starve it of fuel, then why not save the trouble and just turn it off?

Not trying to be argumentative, I haven't gotten that far in a game to really experience how much of a difference it makes, so I really want to understand better. And I know I read all the time about Japan turning off armament production, adjusting industry expansion, etc, so I don't see how it's so much gamier (gameyer? new word) for the Allies to adjust their industry based on how much HI they need or don't need at a given point. Unless the HR would be that neither Japan or Allies could shut off industry/production centers.


The Allies have a shortage of tankers in 1942. Trying to keep OZ fueled and enough fuel in the SoPac for your naval needs if very tough. It just is very hard to move enough fuel and you will want to be building stockpiles for your navy. I actually ran some fuel to OZ to run the industry but don't think it really matters. You have plenty of AKs. Just run supply. That is what you will need. Alfred is right about HI but the Allies produce such a surplus of HI that unless you have lost India and some of the US, you don't really need to produce HI in OZ. And if you are at the point where you do not have enough HI, don't worry. You have already lost the game...


< Message edited by crsutton -- 9/4/2012 5:27:48 AM >


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Post #: 26
RE: Allied Supply to the Western Map - 9/4/2012 3:15:05 PM   
Dobey

 

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While I have never had too much trouble supplying fuel to Oz without turning off HI, the truth is it is a PIA and i'd rather not bother.

Can anyone give me any historical reason to leave HI on and keep the fuel burn going in Aus considering that:

a) Australia remained a net exporter during the second world war (in fact her highest ever trade surplus was 1942 - 1943). The only product Australia needed to import in mass was manufactured military hardware (tanks, A\C, etc). Why? Because she lacked the HI to produce it herself.

b) Australia had little in the way of heavy industry in the 1940's (and not much even today). Most Australian industry was light industry.

c) Industries run, in most cases, on electricity or by burning coal. I have yet to hear of someone finishing work half a day early because the factory ran out of fuel.

As to being gamey, well the simplest test, to my mind, is that if both sides can do exactly the same thing then it seems fair enough.
In any case when Japans oil imports run dry late in the war and the Japanese player starts turning off industry to save fuel I have never heard accusations of gameyness.

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Post #: 27
RE: Allied Supply to the Western Map - 9/4/2012 5:33:41 PM   
treespider


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From: Edgewater, MD
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dobey

While I have never had too much trouble supplying fuel to Oz without turning off HI, the truth is it is a PIA and i'd rather not bother.

Can anyone give me any historical reason to leave HI on and keep the fuel burn going in Aus considering that:

a) Australia remained a net exporter during the second world war (in fact her highest ever trade surplus was 1942 - 1943). The only product Australia needed to import in mass was manufactured military hardware (tanks, A\C, etc). Why? Because she lacked the HI to produce it herself.

b) Australia had little in the way of heavy industry in the 1940's (and not much even today). Most Australian industry was light industry.

c) Industries run, in most cases, on electricity or by burning coal. I have yet to hear of someone finishing work half a day early because the factory ran out of fuel.

As to being gamey, well the simplest test, to my mind, is that if both sides can do exactly the same thing then it seems fair enough.
In any case when Japans oil imports run dry late in the war and the Japanese player starts turning off industry to save fuel I have never heard accusations of gameyness.



Historically in FY 1938-39 Australia imported 600,040,188 gallons of oils/petroleum products, in FY 1943-1944 this value had risen to 859,217,333 gallons.

Assuming 55 gallons to the barrel and 6.29 barrels to the ton, Australia would have imported 4750 fuel points per day in 1938-39 now lets assume about half of the oils/petroleum products are actually "supply" Australia would still have imported something over a 2000 fuel points per day....in 1938-1939. By FY 1943-44 the value should be somewhere north of 3000 fuel points per day.

Source: Official Year Book of the Commonwealth of Australia No. 37 - 1946 and 1947 page 414.


Players should never have been given the abilitity to turn Industry off...and yes I was part of the design team for the economic model in AE.

< Message edited by treespider -- 9/4/2012 7:59:08 PM >


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Post #: 28
RE: Allied Supply to the Western Map - 9/5/2012 4:45:43 AM   
Dobey

 

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Well, you've sold me.
I'll leave industry and learn to live with it.

With regards to not letting players turn industry off, how do you see that feature changing the dynamic of the game, as opposed to, as others have mentioned, simply moving fuel to islands or non industry bases where it won't be consumed? (ie Tasmania, Auckland, etc)

The effects are essentially the same, no? With the exception of higher spoilage rates than if it were kept in major bases.

< Message edited by Dobey -- 9/5/2012 4:46:22 AM >

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Post #: 29
RE: Allied Supply to the Western Map - 9/5/2012 8:21:56 AM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dobey

Well, you've sold me.
I'll leave industry and learn to live with it.

With regards to not letting players turn industry off, how do you see that feature changing the dynamic of the game, as opposed to, as others have mentioned, simply moving fuel to islands or non industry bases where it won't be consumed? (ie Tasmania, Auckland, etc)

The effects are essentially the same, no? With the exception of higher spoilage rates than if it were kept in major bases.


There are consequences of doing so.

1. Auckland (and the rest of New Zealand too) does have Heavy Industry. The difference is that unlike Australia, there is no local fuel production. If the Allied player can manage their NZ fuel stocks, they should be able to do so equally with Australia.

2. The "dry" bases are usually further away from the combat zone. Players are therefore going to consume additional fuel just in transiting the extra distance.

3. The extra transit distance provides (a) more opportunity for enemy subs to interdict the vessels, and (b) creates more wear and tear on Allied ships.

4. Besides potential spoilage from the smaller "dry" ports, refueling and rearming operations are inhibited in time. In some instances the bigger ships will have to expend additional fuel to then travel to a port where they can be rearmed.

5. Depending on the location of the specific "dry" port, there will be reduced Allied flexibility in sourcing fuel imports. Besides the effect on Allied logistics, it also can make it easier for the enemy to raid the SLOCs.

As always, there are costs associated with any particular course of action. Too often players here seem to think themselves smarter than the real life commanders. Players are no where subjected to the same extent of the real world pressures which the historical commanders were but the players are provided with just enough for them to understand that the real historical commanders had sound reasons for the way they conducted the war.

Alfred

(in reply to Dobey)
Post #: 30
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