Weather in TOAW

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Weather in TOAW

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III >> Scenario Design >> Weather in TOAW

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Weather in TOAW - 8/27/2012 11:17:22 AM

76mm

Posts: 1926
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Moscow
Status: online

Could someone help me understand how weather works in TOAW III?

Let's say I want to create a scenario spanning from September until December in Russia, so the weather/ground conditions should change from normal, to mud, to snow.

If I have chosen that time period in TOAW, will these changes occur naturally in TOAW, or do I have to induce them with the Event Editor? In other words, without using the event editor, I have have chosen a northern climate zone and normal precipitation, will it rain more in October, and will the rain automatically cause mud?

I've read that I can use the Event Editor to cause storms and cold/warm fronts. When a cold front moves in, is the resulting decrease in temperature permament, or does the weather warm up again when the cold front moves on? Or don't they move on? If the decrease is permanent, presumably when the next cold front moves in it will get still colder? And finally, I guess there are some kind of random variations on weather (temperature and precipitation) even if I don't do anything with the Event Editor?

Post #: 1

RE: Weather in TOAW - 8/27/2012 3:56:50 PM

jimcarravallah

Posts: 350
Joined: 1/4/2006
Status: offline

This information on Scenario Design may help:

18.4 The Event Engine

. . . On the other hand, if your Scenario is longer than a couple of months
� particularly if weather is important � expect to get your frontal
lobes dirty.

Implies the weather effects are controlled on a schedule defined by events.

That said, during my tinkering with the event engine, there appears to be enough event variability available (event: event sequence; trigger; weather zone; duration; and percent chance event occurs) to model weather for a large operational area either to mimic historical environment or to create a reasonable variability from history or to provide variations for those scenarios where the historical weather affected the outcome.

I'd also check a sampling of the Case Barbarossa scenario variations because weather historically affected the 1941 action.

I'd monitor a computer to computer run of each sample with "weather visible" to see if the weather changes during play.

If the weather changes, I'd then open the event engine with the scenario designer to see whether any change events have a weather trigger (starting with what historically would be September turns when mud was causing issues with movement).

If you find none, the weather variation is randomly caused by the climate and weather zone map variables.

If you do find them, refer back to the top about using the "frontal lobes" ;-)

Take care,

jim

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 2

RE: Weather in TOAW - 8/27/2012 5:16:27 PM

76mm

Posts: 1926
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Moscow
Status: online

Thanks for the reply. Good ideas for figuring this out, but if someone already knows the answer off the top of their head it would be even better!

(in reply to jimcarravallah)

Post #: 3

RE: Weather in TOAW - 8/27/2012 8:26:20 PM

Curtis Lemay

Posts: 6131
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Could someone help me understand how weather works in TOAW III?

Let's say I want to create a scenario spanning from September until December in Russia, so the weather/ground conditions should change from normal, to mud, to snow.

If I have chosen that time period in TOAW, will these changes occur naturally in TOAW, or do I have to induce them with the Event Editor? In other words, without using the event editor, I have have chosen a northern climate zone and normal precipitation, will it rain more in October, and will the rain automatically cause mud?

I've read that I can use the Event Editor to cause storms and cold/warm fronts. When a cold front moves in, is the resulting decrease in temperature permament, or does the weather warm up again when the cold front moves on? Or don't they move on? If the decrease is permanent, presumably when the next cold front moves in it will get still colder? And finally, I guess there are some kind of random variations on weather (temperature and precipitation) even if I don't do anything with the Event Editor?

Time of year doesn't have any effect without events. You've got to do the events yourself. Front events change the temperature permanently. In a northern climate zone, they change the northern-most zone first, then each zone below it in turn sequence. Storm events work for one turn only. Rain does not automatically cause mud. And the rain will not be in every hex anyway. Furthermore, mud dries up quite fast, regardless of temperature. This makes it hard to create a mud period. Most designers resort to shock as an alternative. You can check my "Soviet Union 1941" scenario to see how I did it.

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 4

RE: Weather in TOAW - 8/27/2012 10:55:52 PM

76mm

Posts: 1926
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Moscow
Status: online

Thanks for the info. Is it fair to assume that snow works the same as mud?

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)

Post #: 5

RE: Weather in TOAW - 8/28/2012 1:54:58 AM

Curtis Lemay

Posts: 6131
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Thanks for the info. Is it fair to assume that snow works the same as mud?

In what way? There are some similarities and some differences.

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 6

RE: Weather in TOAW - 8/28/2012 3:52:52 AM

76mm

Posts: 1926
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Moscow
Status: online

I meant does snow precipitation cause the ground conditions to change to snow after some period? And is the snow in every hex, or only where there are clouds? And does snow stick around for awhile, or melt quickly?

Thanks much for your help, saving me lots of time and frustration!

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)

Post #: 7

RE: Weather in TOAW - 8/28/2012 4:36:39 PM

Curtis Lemay

Posts: 6131
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I meant does snow precipitation cause the ground conditions to change to snow after some period?

Yes. I'm not sure what the trigger is, other than having a cloud with precipitation over the hex while it is below freezing. That seems to be necessary but not sufficient. There may be a random check involved as an additional requirement.

quote:

And is the snow in every hex, or only where there are clouds?

Only where snow has been triggered previously, by the conditions above.

quote:

And does snow stick around for awhile, or melt quickly?

Snow does not melt until the zone temperature drops below freezing - via a warm front event. Note that coastal hexes have temperatures one level warmer than the zone's, and mountain hexes have temperatures one level colder than the zone's.

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 8

Weather in TOAW - 8/29/2012 6:21:40 PM

governato

Posts: 338
Joined: 5/6/2011
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline

Hey 76mm, another WITE expat eh? :0
In 'Eastern Front' (I think I still have it in the scenario design section, there is also an AAR) I realized that one needs *a lot* of 'storm' events to get a decent snow coverage in Winter. The global climate zone also had to be set to 'cool+heavy precipitation'. Cool to make sure major rivers would eventually freeze. I used three weather zones to model Russia: cool/temperate/temperate and all 4 cold weather fronts events (and then warm to go back to normal). Best thing is to set a sandbox scenario and see how the weather develops. Btw EasternFront was a good testbed if you want to check the events sequence, but it was basically just a simple upgrade of an older TOAW scenario wich I used for testing a few things. I am finishing up a more detailed scenario on the 41-45 campaign, it takes a few good things from WITE, but at the corps scale. What are you up to?

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)

Post #: 9

RE: Weather in TOAW - 8/29/2012 7:02:55 PM

76mm

Posts: 1926
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Moscow
Status: online

Governato and Curtis Lemay, thanks for the excellent info, you've saved me tons of testing time...

I hesitate to disclose what I'm up to, because it's a little weird! For a variety of reasons I get a bit bored with more historical scenarios and so am creating a hypothetical/fictional/fantasy campaign involving two fictional countries (designed to resemble a mini-Russia/Germany). I will tie it in with the upcoming East Front combat mission game, so that tactical battles can be resolved like that (or in TOAW).

For a variety of reasons, it doesn't look like I'll be able to create one scenario for the whole duration of the campaign, mainly because I will need to be able to create new units and to adjust unit positions/strengths based on the results of CM-level battles. And then there are weather effects, etc. And because the campaign will be on a large island (300x300), I'm figuring out how to model naval stuff as well. So it looks like I'll at least start with some month-long scenarios (@ 6 hours per turn/2.5 km per hex), with the results rolling into the next month.

I'm sure it sounds silly to many, but I enjoy this kind of campaign immensely--I try hard to keep things "real" and so it doesn't get ridiculous, and especially enjoy the design process. Hence the many questions on the forum.

< Message edited by 76mm -- 8/29/2012 7:04:57 PM >

(in reply to governato)

Post #: 10

RE: Weather in TOAW - 8/30/2012 9:33:32 PM

governato

Posts: 338
Joined: 5/6/2011
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline

Sounds like fun actually! Naval warfare is not TOAW's forte though, so my 2c is to keep that part simple...