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Couple of questions. Never played this genre

 
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Couple of questions. Never played this genre - 8/25/2012 4:35:03 AM   
towerbooks3192


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I was browsing the Matrix store and came across tons of games in this genre or of similar type (hex-based games that resemble board games). My knowledge about these kind of games is close to non-existent and the think I have dabbled with that I think is something like these type of games are Panzer General 2 and Panzer tactics for the nintendo ds (sort of like PG2).

What kind of game is this? Does this have the option to create units on maps (like civ or something) and does this have a random map generator? How different is this to Advanced Tactics gold? (thinking about which one to get since I have heard a lot of great stuff about this game but advanced tactics has the option to create units and random map generator)

Lastly, how flexible is this game? Is it easy to create scenarios and units or make fantasy ones or am I limited to WW2?

I apologize for asking a lot about this game but I want to delve deeper into this genre and I am looking for the most flexible and hopefully tolerable for someone who is new to this genre. In terms of graphics, I prefer older ones as long as it is appropriate for the type of game and hopefully it doesnt have any problems running on windows 7.
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RE: Couple of questions. Never played this genre - 8/25/2012 7:34:46 AM   
76mm


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towerbooks, I am new to this game myself but should know enough to answer your basic questions:

--This is a "hard core" war game and frankly it is not very similar to Civ, and there is no random map creation. While you can create units, sort of, during a game, it has to be rather laboriously scripted via an "Event Editor" when a scenario is created (or existing units can be released, etc.). Generally this game is much more complicated and involved than the other games you mention. You should take a look at some of the AARs in that subforum, should give you a decent idea.

--Players can create their own scenarios, including maps and units, but it is all manual and rather labor-intensive. I am just getting into this now, but the scenario editor looks very flexible and powerful, and you can create games from almost any era with some degree of effort (WWI, WWII, and modern games would be easy, because the units are already included in the database; for others you'd need to create your own units or download some of the player-made unit databases). There is certainly a database for 19th century warfare, and in the scenario sub-forum, you'll see that someone has just created a game about the English Civil War. There might be fantasy DBs as well, not sure.

--I suggest that you start with Advanced Tactics Gold; I haven't played it, but it sounds like more what you are looking for. Not sure how important this is to you, but this game is basically 12 or 15 years old, and the graphics and user-interface are rather archaic. Nonetheless, the game is still being patched and supported, and the most recent patch introduced several nice features. I just bought this game a few weeks ago and so far am rather pleased with it.

(in reply to towerbooks3192)
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RE: Couple of questions. Never played this genre - 8/25/2012 2:01:08 PM   
Foggy

 

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Rather archaic - I rather like/resemble that. To be sure there is quite the learning curve - it takes new players quite a while to get acqcd w/the concepts. If you're only interested in a game that looks pretty - I'd move on. If you are willing to take a look at scenarios - historical or not in nature - been playing since 2003 - not bored yet

(in reply to 76mm)
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RE: Couple of questions. Never played this genre - 8/25/2012 2:58:20 PM   
towerbooks3192


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Well for me the graphics are not a problem as long as it doesnt have problem running in newer computers like usual problems with windows 7 since I am not good at running older games like finding some fixes and DOSBOX etc and if it is appropriate for the game.

My main concern of the game is that how free am I? Could I make troops/recruit troops, easily make what-if or even fantasy scenarios or I am stuck with WW2 conflicts?I am willing to give this game a chance since I wanted to really try and play "hardcore" hex-based war games. I feel bound without random map generators and at times its hard to make a custom scenario and playing it for yourself since there will be no surprises and I will know what to expect.

I sort of want an open ended gameplay and if it is a WW2 conflict, I want it to be a what-if scenario or something like trying to dominate the world using a country of lesser power other than the usual Axis/Allies/Commintern.

(in reply to Foggy)
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RE: Couple of questions. Never played this genre - 8/25/2012 3:55:41 PM   
Metalist


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I opened a thread named "Thinking About Buying This Game", for some reason i can't put a link but you can find it easily from my profile. It can help you to answer some of your questions. My OS is Windows 7 and game runs without any problem.

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RE: Couple of questions. Never played this genre - 8/25/2012 4:15:41 PM   
towerbooks3192


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Found your thread before and I sort of find it lacking in terms of the information that I want to find.

Anyway I guess the best thing to do is ask you. So how was it? I assume you have HOI 3 since your profile image is the cover for HOI 3, how is it compared to HOI 3?

I saw a guy in that thread saying that production is not like Advanced Tactics so I assume its not like Civ since I think advanced tactics is like civ in terms of producing units and saying something about not being able to research techs way ahead of their time, is there any research, upgrade or production of units involved?
quote:

ORIGINAL: Metalist

I opened a thread named "Thinking About Buying This Game", for some reason i can't put a link but you can find it easily from my profile. It can help you to answer some of your questions. My OS is Windows 7 and game runs without any problem.


(in reply to Metalist)
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RE: Couple of questions. Never played this genre - 8/25/2012 4:43:45 PM   
76mm


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hmm, I thought I'd answered some of these question, but I'll try again.

A simple answer is that there is no production, research, or creation of units during the game. However, you can replicate to some extent via programming "events" in the scenario editor, but it is rather convoluted and nothing like in Civ, etc.

And no, you are not stuck with WWII conflicts. Fantasy, etc. could be a fair bit of work I would think. You can easily create non-historical wars/battles with WWII units, but this is not really a "conquer the world" type game.

I again suggest that you look at the AAR and scenario design subfora here to get better ideas on all this.

(in reply to towerbooks3192)
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RE: Couple of questions. Never played this genre - 8/25/2012 4:43:52 PM   
Metalist


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Well i haven't played TOAWIII very much yet, but i do have experince for HOI3 and i can assure you that after playing TOAW i will never go back to HOI3. HOI3 is a bad grand strategy game in my opinion. Because it doesn't give you many strategic options. But TOAW gives you what it promises, a perfect operational warfare, not strategic warfare.
In TOAW you don't directly control production, when you have losses in front, these are recovered by replacements. And this is adjusted by scenario creator. So you don't have anything to change it as far as i know.

In the end it is up to you, if you are looking for a game that you will make strategic decisions, maybe this is not the game you are looking for. But if you want to simulate historical operations, trying to win with what you have, i think this game perfect for you. Also an advice, i have never tried anyother warfare game yet, but i searched and read a lot. And i can say you that you will never find a game which has both strategic and operational options. I found games which have great strategic options but very very few number of hexes so maneuver was limited, and i found games that have a great maneuver space, but not strategic options. I am waiting for World in Flames at the moment, maybe you can do that too, buy TOAW for operational game experince and wait World in Flames for strategic game experience.

As i said i am not experienced, i hope i could answer some of your questions. You may check AAR section.

(in reply to towerbooks3192)
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RE: Couple of questions. Never played this genre - 8/25/2012 4:57:06 PM   
towerbooks3192


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I am sorry mate, I kind of forgot which game I got my questions answered since I tried to find as much as I could about this game and all games in the genre. I will recheck AARs and learn more about this. I am bothered whether I should purchase it or not I mean there are some games that needs to played in order to really appreciate it or see its true beauty. I have searched for vids and LPs on youtube but I could not find a single one.

Anyway thanks for all the help and maybe I will be purchasing this game.
quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

hmm, I thought I'd answered some of these question, but I'll try again.

A simple answer is that there is no production, research, or creation of units during the game. However, you can replicate to some extent via programming "events" in the scenario editor, but it is rather convoluted and nothing like in Civ, etc.

And no, you are not stuck with WWII conflicts. Fantasy, etc. could be a fair bit of work I would think. You can easily create non-historical wars/battles with WWII units, but this is not really a "conquer the world" type game.

I again suggest that you look at the AAR and scenario design subfora here to get better ideas on all this.


(in reply to 76mm)
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RE: Couple of questions. Never played this genre - 8/25/2012 5:00:47 PM   
76mm


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Based on what you're saying, I don't think that this game is what you're looking for. There are other games on the Matrix website which are more strategic and allow production, etc. (but I don't know what they're called because I don't play them), or Advanced Tactics might be OK as well. I think that looking at the AARs will make the decision pretty easy for you.

(in reply to towerbooks3192)
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RE: Couple of questions. Never played this genre - 8/25/2012 6:16:16 PM   
towerbooks3192


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Based on what you're saying, I don't think that this game is what you're looking for. There are other games on the Matrix website which are more strategic and allow production, etc. (but I don't know what they're called because I don't play them), or Advanced Tactics might be OK as well. I think that looking at the AARs will make the decision pretty easy for you.


I narrowed down between Advanced Tactics and TOAW 3. The thing is they say that advanced tactics may be flexible but this game is better and has more depth. I mean if I recall correctly they said that units in this game are historically accurate or each individual unit has a name and not just generic names like cavalry I or medium tank I. That is what worries me about advanced tactics.

As to other games in the matrix store, it is pretty confusing since there are a lot and I don't want to be limited to one front like only in the pacific or only in the eastern front.

(in reply to 76mm)
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RE: Couple of questions. Never played this genre - 8/26/2012 6:37:05 AM   
76mm


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For instance, here are a couple of games from Matrix which might interest you:
Strategic War: http://www.matrixgames.com/products/440/details/Strategic.War.in.Europe
Time of Fury: http://www.matrixgames.com/products/401/details/Time.of.Fury

There's also a game called Strategic Command by another publisher. I can't recommend any of these games, because I don't have them, but thought that you might find this interesting.

You are new to the genre, and I think that your expectations might be too high. You want a "realistic" game in which units have historical names, but you also want in-game research, unit creation, not to be limited to particular eras, etc.

In fact, logically these features probably cannot co-exist; in any event, in the current state of the market, these are two very different genres and you will have to choose between them. In fact, the most "realistic" games are often those which cover not just WWII, but some specific battle or campaign within WWII, because special rules can be devised to address particularities of that battle. Any game which can portray fantasy, WWII, WWI, Napoleonic games is almost guaranteed to be more bland and generic--in effect all you are doing is changing the counters (dragons instead of panzers, elfen bowmen instead of artillery, etc.). This game does better than most in covering a wide variety of theaters, etc. but that doesn't mean its perfect.

I don't mean to dissuade you from buying the game--maybe it is just what you are looking for. Indeed, if your budget (time and $$) is not a problem, go ahead and check it out.

(in reply to towerbooks3192)
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RE: Couple of questions. Never played this genre - 8/26/2012 10:05:39 PM   
General Staff

 

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There's a demo version of The Operational Art of War Volume I at http://download.cnet.com/The-Operational-Art-of-War-Vol-I-demo/3000-2119_4-10021530.html I believe. This is for the Korea 50-51 scenario but gives you an idea though you will have to apply yourself to understand the mechanics well. Bear in mind this is Volume I from maybe 1998, so there's been Volume II, TOAW- Wargame of the Year, Century of Warfare and TOAW III over the years providing a lot of additions/improvements through c2010 or so.

See http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/scenarii/list_scenario.php for listing of available scenarios. There's a wealth of information out there- reviews, AARs etc, and if you ask the questions, a lot of folks are happy enough to help out.

< Message edited by General Staff -- 8/26/2012 10:08:35 PM >


_____________________________

Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
(J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

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RE: Couple of questions. Never played this genre - 8/27/2012 10:53:32 AM   
towerbooks3192


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Tried Demo version and ended up downloading a virus with that link

Anyway thanks for the link I appreciate it and I managed to play that korean scenario. Looks pretty interesting and really deep. I think I will get it anytime soon but I am not sure if I could commit to playing it or not and it scares me. Its something I have never seen before and I kind of fell in love especially with the detailed loses and lots and lots of stuff.

A question though. Does it remain windowed mode if I bought the one from matrix store?

I also browsed the matrix store the other night and I think Commander Europe at war fits the bill and something like forge of freedom and Crown of Glory emperors edition but in a WW2 setting or newer. I love having control of a little bit of economics,troop production, and diplomacy while fighting a detailed tactical combat like in hex-based war games.

As for Time of Fury and Strategic war in europe, I have checked some videos and SwiE is just ToF but simplified and smaller. I fear SWiE would lack ToF's depth while ToF is messier compared to SWiE

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RE: Couple of questions. Never played this genre - 8/27/2012 11:52:06 AM   
General Staff

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: towerbooks3192
1) Tried Demo version and ended up downloading a virus with that link
2) Anyway thanks for the link I appreciate it and I managed to play that korean scenario. Looks pretty interesting and really deep. I think I will get it anytime soon but I am not sure if I could commit to playing it or not and it scares me. Its something I have never seen before and I kind of fell in love especially with the detailed loses and lots and lots of stuff.
3) A question though. Does it remain windowed mode if I bought the one from matrix store?
4) I also browsed the matrix store the other night...

1) Sorry about that- I didn't know. I have a copy on my PC that I've run through AVG and IOBit Malware- certified clean (by them anyway). If you need a copy, PM me. If too many requests, at c7Mb will need a home- maybe Matrix could provide some space, or even better yet- provide a TOAWIII demo as they've done with Battles from the Bulge for example (highly useful- you might find this interesting too).
2) Welcome. It's a good stepping stone from old pre-computer hex boardgames, and generally highly regarded by 'grognards'. Hard to beat IMHO, and there's a wealth of material out there for the curious with the determination to look for what's needed and persevere with the high learning curve (or just ask). Scenario length and complexity varies greatly from c10 turns with few units (Arracourt 44, Kasserine 43, 2 Weeks in Normandy 44, various early WWI by Todd Klemme) through some you'd be lucky to finish in your lifetime- see http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/scenarii/list_scenario.php for scenarios.
3) Not sure what you mean- maybe post more details (OS++). But using Windows 7, window can be maxed, mined or sized, and there are compatibility modes from prior Windows versions. I can run multiple instances, which I find useful playing hotseat- 1 for the game and the other to see starting enemy dispositions of the same scenario for example.
4) I only post about games I know, so can't help too much here. Many boardgames. A few computer wargames since I found most of my old boardgame collection (a goodly few) could be handled within TOAW and then some, so I paid $35 for what cost me over $500 since the mid-70s (non-inflation adjusted). PM me or others or post in a forum of interest for opinions- most folks are happy to help, share experiences and- trust me- every wargamer has an opinion.

< Message edited by General Staff -- 8/27/2012 11:54:33 AM >


_____________________________

Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
(J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

(in reply to towerbooks3192)
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RE: Couple of questions. Never played this genre - 8/27/2012 1:12:47 PM   
towerbooks3192


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Thanks for the info mate. As for the last part about the other games I was trying to address 76mm because he tried to suggest some games that could be a good start for me to love and appreciate the genre. Like I said I prefer something like forge of freedom/crown of glory (based on what I have read so far) that gives me some diplomatic/economic choices and troop production or something like Commander Europe at war where I could upgrade and research troops.

As for TOAW it is something different but from the couple of minutes I have spent (only fear was that it will have issues running on Windows 7 or I won't be able to play on fullscreen) I felt in love and I had my eyes opened to something I haven't played before. I guess the best thing to do is sort of buy another game that would compliment TOAW (preferably a game like the games I mentioned before FoF/CoG or something set in WW2 like C:EaW)since it is hard to find games that gives me control of Diplomacy/Economics/ and troop production while having a detailed battle like TOAW.

Any game suggestions would be welcome. I just wanted to make sure that what I purchase from the matrix store is really worth the money since things are pretty darn expensive in the store. The only thing I bought from them was Distant Worlds and all its expansions and so far Matrix didn't disappoint me with my purchase despite being higher than what I usually spend for a strategy game

(in reply to General Staff)
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RE: Couple of questions. Never played this genre - 8/27/2012 4:50:46 PM   
General Staff

 

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You're welcome. OT, have you looked at the Total War series?

As to TOAW, if you've got the demo version, you could play Korea 50-51 while perusing an AAR on it such as Nemo's (one of the best TOAW players) at http://forums.gamesquad.com/showthread.php?7872-Korea-50-51-(Nemo-vs-Mickee-Mao).

There are occasional discounts on TOAW III (holiday season?). See http://www.wargamer.com/article/2984/developer-feature-norm-kogers-the-operational-art-of-war-iii-mega-update-3.4.0.202 for latest improvements and indications of a $5 discount at the time.



_____________________________

Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
(J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

(in reply to towerbooks3192)
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RE: Couple of questions. Never played this genre - 8/27/2012 8:26:53 PM   
towerbooks3192


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I tried to love the TW series. I must say that I have Napoleon (unsold emperors edition for a low price only for the field journal and napoleon figure), got Rome on a bargain bin at a local store, got Medieval 2 2 for less than $5 from gamersgate and got shogun 2 as a gift from mum. I sort of like total war however it is not my cup of tea. If the battles are turn-based then maybe I would love it. I sort of see Crown of Glory and Forge of Freedom as something like total war due to bits of economics/production/diplomacy plus a separate tactical combat (sort of like TW where you move your troops on the Turn base map and when 2 armies engage you could fight it in a tactical battle in a tactical map but in this series its turn-based)

The thing I hate about most RTS is because its basically whoever clicks the fastest wins or build tons of units and throw it against eachother. If it is a pausable one like AI war (still learning to play it) then I could play it since I could pause while I ponder about what to do then unpause to execute my plan

(in reply to General Staff)
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