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Searchareas - 8/24/2012 11:03:29 PM   
StK


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Alfred said in a former thread of mine that search planes are only effective up to a range of 12 hexes. Can I push that "limit" by assigning more planes to the same 10°? Or will they just both search up to those 12 hexes (resulting in a better search of this area?)

edit: That means ofc Naval search as ASW is strictly limited in range and recon is only a single hex

< Message edited by StK -- 8/24/2012 11:12:55 PM >


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RE: Searchareas - 8/25/2012 12:04:38 AM   
Icedawg


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From: Upstate New York
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quote:

ORIGINAL: StK

Alfred said in a former thread of mine that search planes are only effective up to a range of 12 hexes. Can I push that "limit" by assigning more planes to the same 10°? Or will they just both search up to those 12 hexes (resulting in a better search of this area?)

edit: That means ofc Naval search as ASW is strictly limited in range and recon is only a single hex


Wow, that's news to me. So setting my Mavis patrols to 25 hexes is just racking up more fatigue than necessary?

I'm not quite sure I buy it. A couple weeks ago, I had some Bettys flying out of Truk and they spotted my opponent's carriers a hex or two off of Green Island. That would put the range to be about 16 or 17 hexes. I've also had Bettys flying out of Ambon spot allied TFs in Darwin harbor, a range of 15 hexes.

I'm not necessarily doubting Alfred though. He has more knowledge of this game in his pinky toe than I have in total, so I'm thinking there's something lost in translation here. Maybe he meant beyond 12 hexes they operate at reduced effectiveness and are less likely to spot TFs than at ranges less than 12 hexes.

(in reply to StK)
Post #: 2
RE: Searchareas - 8/25/2012 12:19:12 AM   
StK


Posts: 76
Joined: 8/18/2012
From: Upper Austria
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If I had slept anything the last 3 days that's what my post would say... and now that I read everything I feel like an idiot again...
If its possible (which I knew), adding more planes must make it better (chance >0 gets bigger when u multiply it with a number bigger then 1.. )... I really really need to sleep.
Sry.

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Post #: 3
RE: Searchareas - 8/25/2012 4:53:15 AM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

quote:

ORIGINAL: StK

Alfred said in a former thread of mine that search planes are only effective up to a range of 12 hexes. Can I push that "limit" by assigning more planes to the same 10°? Or will they just both search up to those 12 hexes (resulting in a better search of this area?)

edit: That means ofc Naval search as ASW is strictly limited in range and recon is only a single hex


Wow, that's news to me. So setting my Mavis patrols to 25 hexes is just racking up more fatigue than necessary?

I'm not quite sure I buy it. A couple weeks ago, I had some Bettys flying out of Truk and they spotted my opponent's carriers a hex or two off of Green Island. That would put the range to be about 16 or 17 hexes. I've also had Bettys flying out of Ambon spot allied TFs in Darwin harbor, a range of 15 hexes.

I'm not necessarily doubting Alfred though. He has more knowledge of this game in his pinky toe than I have in total, so I'm thinking there's something lost in translation here. Maybe he meant beyond 12 hexes they operate at reduced effectiveness and are less likely to spot TFs than at ranges less than 12 hexes.


The full quote of what I posted to StK's query elsewhere was:

Recon planes conducting a "recon mission" engage in a point to point activity. Range therefore does not deteriorate their effectiveness.

Patrol planes (includes float planes and bombers) conducting a "naval search" mission are engaged in an area activity. For them there is a negative corelation between distance and effectiveness. From an efficiency POV, there is very limited value in placing to search out for more than 12 hexes.

Note that aircraft conducting an "ASW mission" (another area activity) the range of the plane is halved.


It does not say that a TF will not be spotted at a distance of more than 12 hexes but rather that beyond that point there is a very definite law of diminishing returns which makes it very inefficient once one takes into account the costs associated with searching.

Also read page 217 of the manual which states that beyond 300 miles (ie 8 hexes) TFs are less likely to be spotted by aircraft conducting a naval search mission.

Alfred

(in reply to Icedawg)
Post #: 4
RE: Searchareas - 8/25/2012 4:53:09 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 2084
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Which is mathematically subject to modeling and of course is a reflection of reality. But don't ask me what the formula is for radius verses area! For me, anything higher than ten, the shoes come off....

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 5
RE: Searchareas - 8/25/2012 8:18:08 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: StK

Alfred said in a former thread of mine that search planes are only effective up to a range of 12 hexes. Can I push that "limit" by assigning more planes to the same 10°? Or will they just both search up to those 12 hexes (resulting in a better search of this area?)

edit: That means ofc Naval search as ASW is strictly limited in range and recon is only a single hex


1. Each plane allocated to naval search is given a 10 degree arc. That arc cannot be made smaller or bigger.

2. Each plane in the same squadron is given its own separate arc. They do not cross over into someone else's arc.

3. If you have more planes searching than 10 degree arcs set, the surplus planes will restart back at the first arc set.

4. The only realistic way to get two aircraft to search the same arc whilst still maintaining a wide search pattern is to have two or more separate squadrons allocated the exact same search arcs.

Alfred

(in reply to StK)
Post #: 6
RE: Searchareas - 8/25/2012 8:30:29 PM   
LoBaron


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From: Vienna, Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

4. The only realistic way to get two aircraft to search the same arc whilst still maintaining a wide search pattern is to have two or more separate squadrons allocated the exact same search arcs.

Alfred


Exactly.

So with reference to the original question:
You can split your patrol plane squads into smal contingents and set them to cover the same arc. This way you get three times the coverage you normally get, and a higher chance to spot targets further out, 12 hexes is just an average dropoff for chance to detect.

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(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 7
RE: Searchareas - 8/25/2012 10:37:05 PM   
Icedawg


Posts: 1576
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: Upstate New York
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

quote:

ORIGINAL: StK

Alfred said in a former thread of mine that search planes are only effective up to a range of 12 hexes. Can I push that "limit" by assigning more planes to the same 10°? Or will they just both search up to those 12 hexes (resulting in a better search of this area?)

edit: That means ofc Naval search as ASW is strictly limited in range and recon is only a single hex


Wow, that's news to me. So setting my Mavis patrols to 25 hexes is just racking up more fatigue than necessary?

I'm not quite sure I buy it. A couple weeks ago, I had some Bettys flying out of Truk and they spotted my opponent's carriers a hex or two off of Green Island. That would put the range to be about 16 or 17 hexes. I've also had Bettys flying out of Ambon spot allied TFs in Darwin harbor, a range of 15 hexes.

I'm not necessarily doubting Alfred though. He has more knowledge of this game in his pinky toe than I have in total, so I'm thinking there's something lost in translation here. Maybe he meant beyond 12 hexes they operate at reduced effectiveness and are less likely to spot TFs than at ranges less than 12 hexes.


The full quote of what I posted to StK's query elsewhere was:

Recon planes conducting a "recon mission" engage in a point to point activity. Range therefore does not deteriorate their effectiveness.

Patrol planes (includes float planes and bombers) conducting a "naval search" mission are engaged in an area activity. For them there is a negative corelation between distance and effectiveness. From an efficiency POV, there is very limited value in placing to search out for more than 12 hexes.

Note that aircraft conducting an "ASW mission" (another area activity) the range of the plane is halved.


It does not say that a TF will not be spotted at a distance of more than 12 hexes but rather that beyond that point there is a very definite law of diminishing returns which makes it very inefficient once one takes into account the costs associated with searching.

Also read page 217 of the manual which states that beyond 300 miles (ie 8 hexes) TFs are less likely to be spotted by aircraft conducting a naval search mission.

Alfred


Exactly as I suspected. Something got lost in translation between StK and Alfred.

So, it is possible to spot beyond 12 hexes, but as distance increases, probability of detection is going to drop off exponentially. This is exactly what you should expect - area of a circle, radius squared and all that.

In those cases where my planes spotted the enemy TFs, I had gobs of aircraft searching, so I was bound to spot something, as long as it was out there.

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 8
RE: Searchareas - 8/25/2012 10:43:44 PM   
Icedawg


Posts: 1576
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From: Upstate New York
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Don't mean to hijack the thread, but this is at least tangentially related.

I get lots of seemingly bogus spotting reports - "10 allied ships spotted at Truk" (and it's Jan 42), "8 allied ships spotted at hex Y" (where Y is the hex KB is in and it didn't launch any attacks), etc.

My question is this, are these ridiculous reports more likely with low experience and/or low air search skill squadrons? Will veteran pilots be less likely to report these silly things, or is it just something I'm going to have to live with throughout the game?

(in reply to Icedawg)
Post #: 9
RE: Searchareas - 8/25/2012 11:39:17 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 14805
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

So, it is possible to spot beyond 12 hexes, but as distance increases, probability of detection is going to drop off exponentially. This is exactly what you should expect - area of a circle, radius squared and all that.



And expanding on Alfred's point, it is my understanding that a searching plane's chances of finding something are reduced for all of its search run as the range setting increases. For example, set range 10 and it has a certain chance of seeing a target 6 hexes out. Set range 15 and it has a reduced chance of seeing that same target 6 hexes out. That is my best understanding of how it works.

(in reply to Icedawg)
Post #: 10
RE: Searchareas - 8/26/2012 2:55:16 AM   
PaxMondo


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Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: online
This all correlate pretty well back to reality.  A 10 degree search arc at 200 mile radius has a large area of sea to cover.  At 300 miles it is a vastly larger area.  At 600 miles, the area is so large that you rapidly understand why there is a good chance NOT to see even a large TF.

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Post #: 11
RE: Searchareas - 8/27/2012 6:25:25 AM   
CaptDave

 

Posts: 603
Joined: 6/21/2002
From: Federal Way, WA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: StK

Alfred said in a former thread of mine that search planes are only effective up to a range of 12 hexes. Can I push that "limit" by assigning more planes to the same 10°? Or will they just both search up to those 12 hexes (resulting in a better search of this area?)

edit: That means ofc Naval search as ASW is strictly limited in range and recon is only a single hex


1. Each plane allocated to naval search is given a 10 degree arc. That arc cannot be made smaller or bigger.

2. Each plane in the same squadron is given its own separate arc. They do not cross over into someone else's arc.

3. If you have more planes searching than 10 degree arcs set, the surplus planes will restart back at the first arc set.

4. The only realistic way to get two aircraft to search the same arc whilst still maintaining a wide search pattern is to have two or more separate squadrons allocated the exact same search arcs.

Alfred


Regarding #4, with reference to #3, couldn't you just fly a number of planes that is a multiple of the number of 10° arcs you want to search? For example, if you want to just search 30° (perhaps because the other 330° are over land), wouldn't setting 6 planes to search result in double coverage of each 10° arc?

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 12
RE: Searchareas - 8/27/2012 4:50:09 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7148
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

This all correlate pretty well back to reality.  A 10 degree search arc at 200 mile radius has a large area of sea to cover.  At 300 miles it is a vastly larger area.  At 600 miles, the area is so large that you rapidly understand why there is a good chance NOT to see even a large TF.


Still on that .01% chance you do see something, you might be able to do something about it before it arrives too close to interdict it.

I would much prefer seeing a large allied invasion force 13 to 14 hexes out, I have time to prepare for it versus 4-8 hexes out.

In other words, I'll take my chances, as setting my search groups to 70% patrol with 30% rest or training seems to keep the fatigue and ops losses down.

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(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 13
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