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Romanian Army HQs not on map? **BUG STATUS NOW**

 
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Romanian Army HQs not on map? **BUG STATUS NOW** - 8/23/2012 5:49:25 AM   
abulbulian


Posts: 699
Joined: 3/31/2005
Status: offline 		So where are the 3rd and 4th Rom Army HQs? What are people suppose to do when the Romanians get to a point where they need 66% of there troops under their own Army command and have no army HQs?

Is this a design flaw in game or is DCCB not going to have counters on map for the Romanian armies? Seems a little odd?


Will have to experiment to see if under OKH satisfies the 66% minor rule, otherwise it's got to be a bug in the game or just plain silly stuff.


** 3rd Romanian army was basically subordinate to 17th Army.




< Message edited by abulbulian -- 8/24/2012 7:44:40 PM >

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RE: Romanian Armies not on map? - 8/23/2012 5:56:14 AM   
Micke II


Posts: 200
Joined: 9/15/2007
From: Paris France
Status: offline 		I have the same problem. I created new romanian army HQ. I got the VI and VII armies but there is no general in the officers pool to attribuate to these HQ.

< Message edited by Micke II -- 8/23/2012 5:57:05 AM >

(in reply to abulbulian)
Post #: 2
RE: Romanian Armies not on map? - 8/23/2012 6:03:12 AM   
abulbulian


Posts: 699
Joined: 3/31/2005
Status: offline 		Ok yes, Bill W. told me same thing that I need to created them with my precious PP. I can live with this for now. Would prefer that the start 'on-map' and take away a few PP from Axis at start as a trade off in absolutely necessary for play balance.



< Message edited by abulbulian -- 8/23/2012 6:05:05 AM >

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RE: Romanian Armies not on map? - 8/23/2012 6:05:26 AM   
Micke II


Posts: 200
Joined: 9/15/2007
From: Paris France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

Ok yes, Bill W. told me same thing that I need to created them with my precious PP. I can live with this for now. Would prefer that the start 'on-map' and take away a few PP from Axis at start as a trade off in absolutely necessary for play balance.




Yes it's what have done but there is no officer.

(in reply to abulbulian)
Post #: 4
RE: Romanian Armies not on map? - 8/23/2012 2:49:56 PM   
bwheatley

 

Posts: 3254
Joined: 12/13/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Micke II


quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

Ok yes, Bill W. told me same thing that I need to created them with my precious PP. I can live with this for now. Would prefer that the start 'on-map' and take away a few PP from Axis at start as a trade off in absolutely necessary for play balance.




Yes it's what have done but there is no officer.



In my german games you get officers for romanians it's random though.

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RE: Romanian Armies not on map? - 8/24/2012 6:29:31 PM   
Grotius


Posts: 4763
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline 		It's possible you *do* have Romanian officers in your pool but can't see them. For some reason the game hides officers of other nationalities if you have, say, a German officer/HQ selected. Try looking at the officer pool while you have a Romanian HQ selected. When I do that, I see only a list of Romanian officers. I've always had several Romanian officers from whom to choose.

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RE: Romanian Armies not on map? - 8/24/2012 7:53:43 PM   
abulbulian


Posts: 699
Joined: 3/31/2005
Status: offline 		**I now consider this a bug after putting a bit of thought into it and some feedback from some miltary scholar friends.

Here's my reasons:

Both 3rd and 4th Rom Army HQs were around at the start of Barbarossa. They played roles in operations with AGS and Manstein's 11th army operating in Crimea in 41-43. Both of these armies were devastated during the initial stages of the Sov operation 'Uranus'.

Why these army HQs would not be present in DCCB is not explainable also considering that the Hun 2nd and Italian 8th army HQs are modeled and present as counters.

I would like to know how many other players feel that both the Rom 3rd and 4th army HQs should be represented in the game.

thanks

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RE: Romanian Armies not on map? - 8/24/2012 7:57:10 PM   
bwheatley

 

Posts: 3254
Joined: 12/13/2004
Status: offline 		Yea this should probably be moved to the Tech Support forum so vic can get it fixed in the next patch..it won't fix current people playing the scen but will help folks making a fresh start of it.

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RE: Romanian Armies not on map? - 8/24/2012 8:38:43 PM   
stormbringer3

 

Posts: 287
Joined: 7/26/2007
From: Staunton, Va.
Status: offline 		If you click on an empty hex and then look at the officer pool all available officers will show for all nationalities. I also look every turn because there will be additions and subtractions once and awhile.

(in reply to bwheatley)
Post #: 9
RE: Romanian Armies not on map? - 8/24/2012 8:57:29 PM   
abulbulian


Posts: 699
Joined: 3/31/2005
Status: offline 		Yes, this brings up the other issue I have with a workaround to 'add' the HQs. There should be the historical generals in the 3rd and 4th Rom HQs. Not to mention there's going to be very few staff if any available to flush out a new army HQs unit.

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RE: Romanian Armies not on map? - 11/1/2012 11:58:02 AM   
76mm


Posts: 1703
Joined: 5/2/2004
Status: offline 		What is going on with this issue? My Rumanians are asking to be assigned to a Rumanian army, but there are none; so I created a Romanian army HQ and assigned a leader, but it is completely empty of all staff, cannot move, etc.? Will it ever fill up? What consequences if it does not?

Even that Army HQ can only command some of my Romanians (it is in Crimea), so I guess I'll have to create a second empty Romanian army HQ to get to the 66% requirement; what happens if I just keep the Romanians under German command?

(in reply to abulbulian)
Post #: 11
RE: Romanian Armies not on map? - 11/1/2012 12:33:53 PM   
James Ward

 

Posts: 990
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Baltimore, Maryland, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

What is going on with this issue? My Rumanians are asking to be assigned to a Rumanian army, but there are none; so I created a Romanian army HQ and assigned a leader, but it is completely empty of all staff, cannot move, etc.? Will it ever fill up? What consequences if it does not?

Even that Army HQ can only command some of my Romanians (it is in Crimea), so I guess I'll have to create a second empty Romanian army HQ to get to the 66% requirement; what happens if I just keep the Romanians under German command?


You don't get regular minor replacement until their spirit get high. The quickest way to get the Army HQ operational is to disband one of the Romanian Corps HQ's for a turn or two until they send some staff back to OKH. Put the Army HQ on priority replacement and they will get the first available staff reinforcement and then can move.
Don't worry about overloading the Army HQ, you can assign all the Corps HQ's to it no matter where they are on the map in order to satisy the command requirements.

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 12
RE: Romanian Armies not on map? - 11/1/2012 12:42:35 PM   
Bonners


Posts: 463
Joined: 8/24/2012
From: Stockport, UK
Status: offline 		If you dont get the required percentages you start to lose prestige. Also with the last patch the numbers of staff for minor allies increased in the early part of the game so the headquarters units can be filled out with staff earlier on. IIRC this way of setting the armies up was a deliberate design decision, so I dont think it is a bug; remember there are some things that Vic has done for the game rather than being strictly historical.

I dont have a problem with it. All I do is create the relevant army HQs on the first turn of the campaign and then as they fill up with staff gradually transfer the units to their own nationality's command. IIRC from my experimental game against the AI I also had to create extra Corps for the Hungarians and Romanians as otherwise the existing Corps got too big for the low quality staff and generals to control properly. As for the officers, if you click on the relevant minor country HQ and then click on the officer pool it will bring up the choices from that country. You should get reports each turn which tells you when new officers enter the pool which are always worth checking as there is the odd good general available as well as a lot of ropey ones.

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Post #: 13
RE: Romanian Armies not on map? - 11/1/2012 12:56:20 PM   
76mm


Posts: 1703
Joined: 5/2/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bonners
IIRC from my experimental game against the AI I also had to create extra Corps for the Hungarians and Romanians as otherwise the existing Corps got too big for the low quality staff and generals to control properly.


Thanks for the quick responses. When you say that the corps "got too big for the low quality staff and generals", does that mean that the two ratios (whatever they are called) went below 1, or how else did you know that?

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Post #: 14
RE: Romanian Armies not on map? - 11/1/2012 1:20:23 PM   
Bonners


Posts: 463
Joined: 8/24/2012
From: Stockport, UK
Status: offline 		I'm not 100% sure how it is worked out, but the number is basically based on the quality of general and the number and quality of staff. I'm at work now so cant get a decent quality picture. But if you click on the details tab for an officer (shown very badly in the attachment) it will show you a number which IIRC is something like its HQ points which shows you how many units it can control. A strong HQ with lots of staff can get up to the 900 mark, but a new HQ with few staff will have a low number, something like a 100. As a general rule of thumb each division will take something like a 100-150 points. There is another number on the details which shows you how many points are actually needed.

Therefore, in the example of the minor allies their HQs only have limited powers. So say you had a Romanian Corps with 5 infantry divisions attached it will not have enough HQ points to control them all. So it will be better to create another Corps HQ. Again, I reckon it is better to create these early to let them build up staff numbers so they are able to control the extra units. Also the more divisions attached to aHQ the more likely it will be that they get out of range of HQ power thereby reducing the percentage modifiers.

If you look at my AAR (no dont actually, it is painful viewing) then you will see I have had to create a new army for much the dame reasons, a combination of too many units under command and not enough HQ points. If nobody has explained it better before this evening I'll print up a better picture and explanation once I have access to the game.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 15
RE: Romanian Armies not on map? - 11/1/2012 1:22:34 PM   
Bonners


Posts: 463
Joined: 8/24/2012
From: Stockport, UK
Status: offline 		Sorry forgot to add, for new army HQs it might be worthwhile spending points from OKH to increase their experience, it depends how you want to use OKH as in the early part of the game it is also useful for producing emergency units which are useful for guarding your ports and against partisans. Te same applies for the army command giving the experience card to corps formations.

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Post #: 16
RE: Romanian Armies not on map? - 11/1/2012 4:57:00 PM   
RCH


Posts: 176
Joined: 1/19/2011
Status: offline 		This kind of frustrates me too. Why do the Romanian armies need to be built anyway. I understand that with two day intervals that organizing new commands should not be instantaneous. You have to build the army or corp long before you need it. I don't like the lack of officers. I have been mainly learning the game playing case blue and I build a Romanian army and corp right off the bat and the lack of Romanian officers bothers me. I think a month is long enough to get an officer to the front. I get the Romanian army officer after a bit, but that HQ waits forever.

I'd like to see a more historical OOB, but I haven't the time.

(in reply to Bonners)
Post #: 17
RE: Romanian Armies not on map? - 11/1/2012 5:45:36 PM   
James Ward

 

Posts: 990
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Baltimore, Maryland, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RCH

This kind of frustrates me too. Why do the Romanian armies need to be built anyway. I understand that with two day intervals that organizing new commands should not be instantaneous. You have to build the army or corp long before you need it. I don't like the lack of officers. I have been mainly learning the game playing case blue and I build a Romanian army and corp right off the bat and the lack of Romanian officers bothers me. I think a month is long enough to get an officer to the front. I get the Romanian army officer after a bit, but that HQ waits forever.

I'd like to see a more historical OOB, but I haven't the time.


There is a rule that requires a certain percent of minor troops to be under their own Army command once their spirit level reaches a certain point. It is portrayed as a matter of national pride. You can ignore it but it will cost you prestige.
All units need to ultimately be under OKH command to get supply and replacements.

(in reply to RCH)
Post #: 18
RE: Romanian Armies not on map? - 11/1/2012 7:31:46 PM   
stormbringer3

 

Posts: 287
Joined: 7/26/2007
From: Staunton, Va.
Status: offline 		I created a Romanian Army HQ on turn 2 and added a general on turn 3. Maybe I'm just lucky but a couple of turns later I had my 1st staff, only 100, but it made the HQ fully operational. I have the HQ set on priority and it is slowly gaining staff.

(in reply to James Ward)
Post #: 19
RE: Romanian Armies not on map? - 11/1/2012 8:01:21 PM   
Bonners


Posts: 463
Joined: 8/24/2012
From: Stockport, UK
Status: offline 		Right, I got it wrong up there. See the attachment, it is staff points I was referring to (circled in red). The point being that the more HQ staff you have the more units you can control. Also it owuld appear that there is a direct correlation, unaffected by other factors, between staff points and number of staff, in this example 900 staff equates to 450 staff points The exact penalties for not having enough staff points I'm not 100% sure, but I think it also reduces the percentages of HQ bonuses the units gets??? If I'm correct then the HQ percentage bonuses are based on the % of the general, whether there is enough staff points and finally distance from the HQ (see the bottom of the attachment where I've pasted on the breakdown of this). Can anybody confirm if I've got that right?




Attachment (1)

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RE: Romanian Armies not on map? - 11/1/2012 8:52:29 PM   
James Ward

 

Posts: 990
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Baltimore, Maryland, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stormbringer3

I created a Romanian Army HQ on turn 2 and added a general on turn 3. Maybe I'm just lucky but a couple of turns later I had my 1st staff, only 100, but it made the HQ fully operational. I have the HQ set on priority and it is slowly gaining staff.


You do have a random chance of getting Minor replacements before their spirit is above 80 (I think) sounds like you rolled good :)

The surest way to get staff is to temporialy disband a Corp HQ that starts on the map. Once you get 100 staff in the new HQ it can move around and you can stop disbanding.

(in reply to stormbringer3)
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RE: Romanian Armies not on map? - 11/1/2012 9:37:15 PM   
LiquidSky


Posts: 832
Joined: 6/24/2008
Status: offline

I have noticed (on hardcore supply rule) that an HQ will stop getting staff after a couple points when there are no units attached to it. After attaching a divison to the HQ, it will then start growing again.

As long as I do not attach any real units to an Army/Front HQ, I am not sure if they really need any staff. Just enough for the unit to move...so making an Army level HQ for the minors isn't terribly hard.

If you don't have enough staff points, the ratio is probably the penalty. So if it says .91 Troop/Staff ratio, then you probably have a .91 * effect from the HQ.

By the time the minors are useful during the campaign, you can easily have HQ's for them. I notice that in late August, I have 1 Army and 3 Corp HQ's for the Rumanians, and with staff to spare at OKH to make more.

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RE: Romanian Armies not on map? - 11/1/2012 9:49:04 PM   
James Ward

 

Posts: 990
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Baltimore, Maryland, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky



I have noticed (on hardcore supply rule) that an HQ will stop getting staff after a couple points when there are no units attached to it. After attaching a divison to the HQ, it will then start growing again.

As long as I do not attach any real units to an Army/Front HQ, I am not sure if they really need any staff. Just enough for the unit to move...so making an Army level HQ for the minors isn't terribly hard.

If you don't have enough staff points, the ratio is probably the penalty. So if it says .91 Troop/Staff ratio, then you probably have a .91 * effect from the HQ.

By the time the minors are useful during the campaign, you can easily have HQ's for them. I notice that in late August, I have 1 Army and 3 Corp HQ's for the Rumanians, and with staff to spare at OKH to make more.


I don't think they can move until they have some troop attached. I have had German HQ's get infantry before getting any staff and they could move around. I am not sure how much the staff level effects an Army HQ.

(in reply to LiquidSky)
Post #: 23
RE: Romanian Armies not on map? - 11/2/2012 2:37:29 PM   
redmarkus4


Posts: 3918
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: 0.00
Status: offline 		I'm kind of surprised that one of the OOB modders (there are some very clever ones in this forum) hasn't just edited the scenario to add these HQs and posted it here. I'm a map man myself...

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RE: Romanian Armies not on map? - 11/2/2012 3:22:58 PM   
James Ward

 

Posts: 990
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Baltimore, Maryland, USA
Status: offline 		I'm ok with having to build them but maybe they should come with 100 staff so they can move. If they were modded in then the Germans wouldn't have to pay the points to build them. I think it cost 10 PP to build an Army HQ so that's 30 points that have to be spent on something other than replacements :)

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Post #: 25
RE: Romanian Armies not on map? - 11/2/2012 3:45:56 PM   
76mm


Posts: 1703
Joined: 5/2/2004
Status: offline 		I don't mind having to build them either, but it seems silly to allow players to build them and then not give them any staff/troops to man them. I created a Romanian army HQ several turns ago and assiged a leader and three corps, but the army HQ still has *zero* men in it.

(in reply to James Ward)
Post #: 26
RE: Romanian Armies not on map? - 11/2/2012 4:32:34 PM   
James Ward

 

Posts: 990
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Baltimore, Maryland, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I don't mind having to build them either, but it seems silly to allow players to build them and then not give them any staff/troops to man them. I created a Romanian army HQ several turns ago and assiged a leader and three corps, but the army HQ still has *zero* men in it.


Disband a Corp HQ for a turn or two and put the new HQ on Priority replacements. It will get 100 staff.

I think they should come with some staff.

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 27
RE: Romanian Armies not on map? - 11/2/2012 6:54:52 PM   
LiquidSky


Posts: 832
Joined: 6/24/2008
Status: offline

It can be modded so that when the unit is created, it comes with some troops.

But it doesn't matter really if the unit can move or not, and it doesn't affect the corps in anyway that I can notice if I attach it to an HQ without a leader, or staff. And with easy supply rule on, it wont even effect supply/replacement points, since all supply/replacements flow from OKH directly to the unit on the map. Just buy the HQ on the first turn, and wait for the Trucks/Staff to appear (which it will) and for the commander to appear (which he will).

Then transfer the Rumanians when the spirt gets high enough (or attack with them to keep it lower)

As for the 10 PP points for the HQ, well..that is a very minor drop in the bucket. I get about 40 pp a turn, and I am on turn um, 54 so that is about 1500 - 2000 pp I have gained so far. Spending 10 on a useful unit is hardly a hardship.



_____________________________

To the right General Patton, to the left the British Army, to the rear our own artillery, and besides all that its raining. And the only good thing to say about the weather: it keeps our air corps from blowing us all to Hell because its too lousy to fly.

(in reply to James Ward)
Post #: 28
RE: Romanian Armies not on map? - 11/2/2012 7:53:36 PM   
James Ward

 

Posts: 990
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Baltimore, Maryland, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky

But it doesn't matter really if the unit can move or not,


It does if you screw up the placement! :)

(in reply to LiquidSky)
Post #: 29
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