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Optimal Altitude For Dive Bombing

 
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Optimal Altitude For Dive Bombing - 8/22/2012 1:10:32 AM   
VonFrag

 

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My apologies if this has been asked before but here goes.

Allies, august 42, latest patch.

I set my Dauntlesses at 20,000 feet for dive bombing. They never hit squat. I dropped it to 15,000 feet and it seems to be better. What altitude seems to work for you? Or what is the best altitude to set them at?

Thanks

Frag out
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RE: Optimal Altitude For Dive Bombing - 8/22/2012 1:19:09 AM   
Justus2


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Dive Bombing only works between 10,000-15,000 feet

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RE: Optimal Altitude For Dive Bombing - 8/22/2012 1:27:37 AM   
StK


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This question in particular is very well answered in the video tutorials of n01487477, but I'm not allowed to post links yet.. could someone post it?

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RE: Optimal Altitude For Dive Bombing - 8/22/2012 1:32:13 AM   
Justus2


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Tutorial Links

Bombing tutorial

Here's the link to a video that also shows a chart.

< Message edited by Justus2 -- 8/22/2012 1:33:48 AM >


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RE: Optimal Altitude For Dive Bombing - 8/22/2012 1:38:59 AM   
StK


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thank you

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RE: Optimal Altitude For Dive Bombing - 8/22/2012 2:10:14 AM   
dr.hal


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Isn't this in the manual?

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RE: Optimal Altitude For Dive Bombing - 8/22/2012 2:23:41 AM   
VonFrag

 

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Who has time for the manual.............. Tanks for the info. I was thinking Uncommon Valor and dive bombing from 20k, in which I read a nice interview somewhere with Dick Best and he mentioned they started at 20,000 feet many times. But no big deal.

Frag out.

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RE: Optimal Altitude For Dive Bombing - 8/22/2012 3:14:13 AM   
dr.hal


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Frag, the manual is sadly out of date however it does provide foundational information that gives you the basics that allow you to avoid unknowingly making mistakes and allows the player to short cut the learning process of the game. It may not be a great read, but it is an important one (at least in my book, pun intended!). Hal

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RE: Optimal Altitude For Dive Bombing - 8/22/2012 3:26:53 AM   
ny59giants


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Fighters @ 15k
DB @ 12k
TB @ 9k

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RE: Optimal Altitude For Dive Bombing - 8/22/2012 4:11:26 AM   
dr.hal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Fighters @ 15k
DB @ 12k
TB @ 9k

How do you come to these conclusions ny59giants? For maximum impact one should put the TBs and DBs at the same altitude along with escorting fighters (all at 13K). Thus the DBs actually divebomb, the torpedo bombers will drop down to 200 ft and drop their torpedoes while the escort flies 2K feet above the formation for protection. This also allows for the maximum chance of a coordinated strike. Hal

< Message edited by dr.hal -- 8/22/2012 4:14:44 AM >

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RE: Optimal Altitude For Dive Bombing - 8/22/2012 5:01:42 AM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Fighters @ 15k
DB @ 12k
TB @ 9k

How do you come to these conclusions ny59giants? For maximum impact one should put the TBs and DBs at the same altitude along with escorting fighters (all at 13K). Thus the DBs actually divebomb, the torpedo bombers will drop down to 200 ft and drop their torpedoes while the escort flies 2K feet above the formation for protection. This also allows for the maximum chance of a coordinated strike. Hal

+1

Consistent with LoBaron air Manual.

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RE: Optimal Altitude For Dive Bombing - 8/22/2012 7:47:55 AM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VonFrag

Who has time for the manual..............


Me.

Alfred

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RE: Optimal Altitude For Dive Bombing - 8/22/2012 10:36:36 AM   
mullk

 

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I always set all my DB, TB and fighter aircraft to 15k. Strikes are less likely to arrive piece meal and dive bombers will dive bomb. I also believe that AAA is a bit lower at 15k vs 12k but i may very well be wrong on that count. For fighters set purely to cap I start at 15k and adjust to raid altitudes.

< Message edited by mullk -- 8/22/2012 10:38:04 AM >

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RE: Optimal Altitude For Dive Bombing - 8/22/2012 1:21:09 PM   
dr.hal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: VonFrag

Who has time for the manual..............


Me.

Alfred

Nicely put Alfred!

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RE: Optimal Altitude For Dive Bombing - 8/22/2012 4:10:57 PM   
Balou


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@ ny59giants
In one of my recent posts I was told to set DB and TB to same altitude, since it increases the likelyhood of coordinated strikes, say 11k.

< Message edited by Balou -- 8/22/2012 4:13:17 PM >

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RE: Optimal Altitude For Dive Bombing - 8/22/2012 4:28:32 PM   
LoBaron


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Just for theory, the optimal alt setting for the IJN can be viewed as 13k - as Pax Mondo already pointed out. The reason is that above 15k
the Zero mvr rating drops a notch, so setting your strike to 13k sets the escorts at 15k, the highest optimal alt setting for the escorting Zero.

The Allies are not restricted to this as the Wildcats mvr rating only drops after 20k, so with regards to getting as much of a strike through as possible,
one could argue that the optimum alt setting is 15k.

But there is another factor weighting just as much: Strike accuracy. The lower in the 10-15 band your strike goes in, the better the accuracy of your DBs.

I don´t think that there is a conclusive test up to now where the optimal tradeoff altitude for strikes lies when weighting in accuracy vs. getting as many planes
as possible over target undamaged. I also believe this will never be the case, as selecting the alt highly depends on type and number of opposition.
13k still looks a good alt to me, independent of the side you play, but I think the trick is to vary and remain unpredictable, thats what I am trying to do.

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RE: Optimal Altitude For Dive Bombing - 8/23/2012 7:36:04 AM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Fighters @ 15k
DB @ 12k
TB @ 9k

How do you come to these conclusions ny59giants? For maximum impact one should put the TBs and DBs at the same altitude along with escorting fighters (all at 13K). Thus the DBs actually divebomb, the torpedo bombers will drop down to 200 ft and drop their torpedoes while the escort flies 2K feet above the formation for protection. This also allows for the maximum chance of a coordinated strike. Hal



I got my carrier based ac at three different altitudes and all the time launch strikes of 300+ aircraft in early/mid 42 while having ALL carriers in the same TF. Works well, don't give too much on "I have to look at CV stacking per TF and alts for aircraft".

< Message edited by castor troy -- 8/23/2012 7:38:13 AM >


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RE: Optimal Altitude For Dive Bombing - 8/23/2012 9:34:01 AM   
LoBaron


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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Fighters @ 15k
DB @ 12k
TB @ 9k

How do you come to these conclusions ny59giants? For maximum impact one should put the TBs and DBs at the same altitude along with escorting fighters (all at 13K). Thus the DBs actually divebomb, the torpedo bombers will drop down to 200 ft and drop their torpedoes while the escort flies 2K feet above the formation for protection. This also allows for the maximum chance of a coordinated strike. Hal



I got my carrier based ac at three different altitudes and all the time launch strikes of 300+ aircraft in early/mid 42 while having ALL carriers in the same TF. Works well, don't give too much on "I have to look at CV stacking per TF and alts for aircraft".


You will notice though that independent of different alt settings you only got one incoming altitude (also visible in the combat report) if a strike goes in coordinated. Which means that theres only two possible
outcomes: either your different alt settings are useless because the secondary groups reset to the same alt as the lead group when the strike coordinates, or the strikes do not coordinate.

But I agree with you that the chances to coordinate very high for CV airgroups independent of the alt setting.

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RE: Optimal Altitude For Dive Bombing - 8/23/2012 2:45:04 PM   
dr.hal


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But you maximize your chances of a coordinated strike if you set your altitudes for the various forms of attack (and escort) at the same altitude. Yet as in all aspects of the game, this is an individual decision that has many choices; all up to the player.

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RE: Optimal Altitude For Dive Bombing - 8/23/2012 2:50:06 PM   
Puhis

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


You will notice though that independent of different alt settings you only got one incoming altitude (also visible in the combat report) if a strike goes in coordinated.


This is simply wrong.

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RE: Optimal Altitude For Dive Bombing - 8/23/2012 2:54:00 PM   
LoBaron


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It is an assumption admittedly. But please tell me why you say it is wrong. Have you ever seen a level boming attack described by a single combat report where
bombing altitudes were different, and have you ever seen a combat report with more than a single incoming altitude?

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RE: Optimal Altitude For Dive Bombing - 8/23/2012 3:14:38 PM   
Puhis

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

It is an assumption admittedly. But please tell me why you say it is wrong. Have you ever seen a level boming attack described by a single combat report where
bombing altitudes were different
, and have you ever seen a combat report with more than a single incoming altitude?


Combat report is always showing only one altitude. But I've seen coordinated strikes bombing different altitudes.

I really don't know who air combat model works, but I think setting different altitude for bombers can distract CAP so that some of the fighters have to fly high and some low.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Finschhafen , at 100,126

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 64 NM, estimated altitude 29,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 18 minutes

Allied aircraft
Mitchell II x 11
B-24D1 Liberator x 6

No Allied losses


Aircraft Attacking:
11 x Mitchell II bombing from 24000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 3 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 25000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 19th Tank Regiment, at 63,41 (Warazup)

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid spotted at 19 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes


Allied aircraft
B-24D Liberator x 18
B-25C Mitchell x 12


No Allied losses


Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Ground Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
9 x B-25C Mitchell bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Ground Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb


< Message edited by Puhis -- 8/23/2012 3:15:35 PM >

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RE: Optimal Altitude For Dive Bombing - 8/23/2012 4:04:10 PM   
LoBaron


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Good observation, thanks!

You never stop learning...

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RE: Optimal Altitude For Dive Bombing - 6/20/2013 8:58:04 AM   
DHRedge

 

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When training aircraft, I noticed that below 5000 alt trained 'low' versions of skills, above 5000 trained higher alt versions of skills.

So between the 100 and 5000 range, there are different pilot skills used, or so it would seem by the effect of training, I don't know how that effects things like dive bombing or torpedoes, but it would be interesting to know how that adds into the computations.

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RE: Optimal Altitude For Dive Bombing - 6/20/2013 5:21:57 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Good observation, thanks!

You never stop learning...


I know nothing compared to you guys about aircraft code, but in those cases doesn't the Attack Bomber designation overcome the mission description? Just as TBs can come in at any altitude but descend for attack don't Attack Bombers come low to drop in all cases?

Edit: I think a Mitchell II is an AB. If not, never mind!

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 6/20/2013 5:23:08 PM >


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RE: Optimal Altitude For Dive Bombing - 6/20/2013 11:09:24 PM   
LoBaron


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Alt bombers do not default to an attack alt different from preset alt (such as dive/glide bombers do).
The only difference of AB to conventional level bombers is that the bombload is not halved for low level attacks (making them extremely dangerous LowN beasts).


Currently I think the example shown by Puhis might either be a result of the "overcoordination" bug Michael patched in one of the recent betas, or could be a simple coincidence and both raids packs arrived over target in the same pulse without coordinating in game terms.



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RE: Optimal Altitude For Dive Bombing - 6/20/2013 11:56:01 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Alt bombers do not default to an attack alt different from preset alt (such as dive/glide bombers do).
The only difference of AB to conventional level bombers is that the bombload is not halved for low level attacks (making them extremely dangerous LowN beasts).



Ah. It's been about two years in real time since I had any ABs to play with. One of these days . . .

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RE: Optimal Altitude For Dive Bombing - 6/21/2013 12:19:02 AM   
Nemo121


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LoBaron,

Different altitudes within the same strike are modelled because if they weren't my whole kamikaze plan for '45 of splitting CAP with multiple altitude settings wouldn't work. In-game testing shows that it does work - in addition to which you can easily test this by setting one type of plan at maximum altitude and then selecting another type of plane to co-ordinate with it which is set to come in at low altitude. Ensure both plane types can fly ABOVE the CAP potentially.

You'll get a mix of messages.
1. Many saying the CAP cannot get to the high-flying planes.
2. Many saying your LOW CAP ( ideally made up exclusively from different fighters than your high CAP ) has engaged the low level attackers.

I've run this test which allows me to test Attacker altitude and ceiling vs CAP altitude and ceiling in a reliable fashion and conclusively shown that altitudes within a strike can be varied.

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RE: Optimal Altitude For Dive Bombing - 6/22/2013 8:41:43 AM   
LoBaron


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Love how you formulated that rationale Nemo.

I know about your tests, are they all pre-(current)beta? I remember you first posted extensively about them when playing your Downfall PBEM, and thats quite some time ago.

To my best knowledge the fact that alt settings govern coordination attempts by the game engine still apply.

Two points:

- there was a bug eliminated by Michael in one of the beta versions, causing the engine to "overcoordinate". He never officially said what was overcoordinating, but it could be part of what you were seeing as test results. If it truly was coordination, the only proof though would be that you sometimes got "failed to link up" messages ingame from units that usually do not coordinate as they were separated by altitude. Did you?

- besides coordination there is also "correlation". If the target is the same for several squadrons, there is always a chance that units arrive over target at the same time. This is much evident on sweep missions, where the percieved coordination is in fact correlation (combat executed in a single pulse because all units had the same target, arrived over target at the same time, and were not separated by CAP, without any forced grouping by the game engine as precondition). The more units are involved into the action, the higher that chance for some of the squadrons to happen.


I think one of the greatest difficulties when approaching this topic is terminology.

Many people here (not you, I am aware how you mean it, but I want to show why such debates might lead to confusion) equate coordination with "resolving combat in a single animation", which is incorrect. Just because something happens in a single combat animation does not mean the are related in any other way than time and location.

Coordination only means an attempt by the game engine to force synchronized arrival over target. This is a cause for combat observed in game, not the observed combat itself. And is only a small part influencing of how combat animations play out, as there are several other factors relevant.

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 6/22/2013 8:43:30 AM >


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RE: Optimal Altitude For Dive Bombing - 6/22/2013 9:25:25 AM   
DHRedge

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


Many people here (not you, I am aware how you mean it, but I want to show why such debates might lead to confusion) equate coordination with "resolving combat in a single animation", which is incorrect. Just because something happens in a single combat animation does not mean the are related in any other way than time and location.

Coordination only means an attempt by the game engine to force synchronized arrival over target. This is a cause for combat observed in game, not the observed combat itself. And is only a small part influencing of how combat animations play out, as there are several other factors relevant.


If you have not read my posts from many locations, much of this will not make sense, don't worry about that, it does make sense to those that have been reading my posts over the last years.

Note this is a reply on the concept you are discussing, although the fact that it is posted in a different context, yet is about the same event, shows coordination, with plausible deniability of correlation.

You get a good thinking award for making the distinction of cause and effect of mutual actions in space and time.

Two people coming to the same conclusion do not define the same source or cooperation, it only defines a form of meeting in some ethereal space where the same idea occurred in thoughts of multiple people simultaneously.

From that we can ponder the question, are people connected when in correlation, is it coordination, or is it swarm, where each acts independently, but by the some same pathing end up at the same location at the same time with a similar action or intent.

Therefore we proceed to a comment by John Locke, two people with the same idea at the same moment are essentially the same person. However, they were not the same person when moving to that action in space time, nor when moving away if on different paths. So do events create situations, or do the multitude of possibilities create the illusion of coordination inside of correlation. (also why these events model 'nuclear' effects since they are far more then what would be found as a average mass at one point in space and time (Crossing the streams from Ghost Busters))

It should also be noted, coordination above correlation is about the 'Tess' Model. Or the person that understands it, is in a coordinating role, or closer to the source that instigates action. However all the pieces are usually only seen by the 'Tess' and from that it looks random or like correlation, for those that do not have both the personal experience of an event, and the correlating other pieces that form the mosaic that tells the story and shows actual coordination.

If someone can find the correlations above some rate of randomness, then coordination does exist, basic chaos theory, order in the noise. If bees swarm, that is coordination by the fact that a swarm is at some location at some time. Note removing limitations of linear time makes it much easier, where something like stop action filming could photograph 1000 bees at some correlating location and action, and then show them all in the same picture, by sequencing the events outside of linear time, and by that create an event outside of linear time that shows a level of coordination when it could be correlation.

Although outside of linear time is a presumption that item creation is the intended act of correlation, it is also possible that the intent of the object creation is to be seen in a swarm in some replay outside of its linear time when it was created. The idea of preparatory work where components to form a coordinated action are all moving from different distances in time to arrive in the same sequence of some posting.

Side note, nobody has to believe in coordination if they don't want to, however, I am due beer and travel money and the fact that I can find the information is enough to show that it is coordinated.

I could also add the correlation that your argument is something my uncle would say,
Lo Ba Ron, Or I could again repeat the Bar requirements I have been specifying, Lo Bar On, in each another correlation appears, is it coordinate? at what point does the statistics over weight the skepticism. Note the intent is not to show the form, but to show the form exists. And of coarse, from that the realization that money must be sent to me will be clear to anyone reading all the posts. However not knowing about 'the bar' or 'my uncle' would not make the correlation visible to anyone else.

You would have to have the cumulative data of all my posts and experiences to see the significance of the correlations responding to this location in time. What I call checking in, and what is also usually called advisors giving different opinions from within the fog.




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