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New sftypes I have added

 
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New sftypes I have added - 8/21/2012 2:37:13 AM   
aspqrz

 

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To give an idea of some of the preliminary work before changing TO&Es and OOBs, I've needed to add a variety of sftypes to the game and change some others ...

These are the ones I have added/changed so far, with comments (original or new #s from sftype list in the editor, for convenience) ...

4) 105mm LeFH: This is, in fact, per the original description, the unsuccessful 105mm k18 sFH Howizter, which I have renamed as an sFH to differentiate between it and the actual 105mm gun (the LeFH 18(m)). This is the description I have given it ...

"The 10.5cm Kanone-18 was a heavy German field gun first used in 1933-34. It could fire about 6 rounds per minute at ranges of up to 19,075 meters. Weighing over 5.6 tons, it was very heavy and cumbersome. As a result, it was not considered a very effective weapon by the German Wehrmacht as it was found to be too much gun for too little shell and was progressively relegated to Coastal Artillery Batteries from 1942 onwards."

The main changes to its stats are to ... change the Reinforcement Type to Heavy Artillery and give it a value against Surface Ships of 86/86, which is an estimate based on the shell size of an actual DD main gun's shell compared to that of the K18 ... and I have been progressively replacing it with the 105mm LeFH 18M in those units that are equiupped (per TO&E) with a 105mm Howitzer.

I have OOB lists that show Coastal Gun units with the units deployed in the Crimea and, I presume, based on its redeployment as a Coastal Gun, will add it there and deploy those units when I get around to it.

19) 150mm SiG33: This is the designation of the gun mounted on the chassis, not the Vehicle designation, which has been changed to the correct SdKfz 138 Bison ... there is now an 105mm SiG33 entry for the gun where deployed as a towwed piece, which it was, more often than not. The gun is shown as an artillery piece, which is completely wrong ... it was deployed alongside the 75mm Infantry Gun to give close support to Infantry units as an organic piece ... so, I have reduced range to 0 and StockUsePerRound and the values below it to 0, just as for the 75mm IG, which will reduce its effectiveness in line with its actual use.

The description ...

"The Invasion of Poland had shown that the sIG 33 Howitzers assigned to the infantry gun companies of the motorized infantry regiments had difficulties keeping up with the tanks during combat. The easiest solution was to use a spare tank chassis to carry it into battle by 1942 this was mostly standardised on a Pz38(t) chassis as the SdKfz 128 Bison, but also represents earlier models on other chassis as well."

126) 105mm LeFH 18M: As noted above, this is the actual stats for this weapon, not those for slot (4), which is for a different weapon entirely. This is basically as the original slot 4 values, with no anti-ship values and a different description ...

"The 10.5cm LeFH was a medium German field howitzer first used in 1935. It could fire about 6 rounds per minute at ranges of up to 12,325 meters. Weighing 1.95 tons, it was very solidly built. Under normal operational conditions it was fine, but it proved too heavy for horse teams and most motorised artillery tractors in the face of the Russian mud, still, it remained in widespread service throughout the war as a satisfactory replacement was never produced."

127) 105mm GebH 40: This is the standard German Mountain Howitzer. It is identical in actual stats to the LeFH 18M except that it was designed to be used on less even terrain (to get it into action, the gun carriage needed only three flat points to be emplaced, not four, as per standard weapons) ... so I have increased the Low Mountain/High Mountain/Forested Mountain Combat Landscape Mod values to .35/.65 for the first two and .25/.55 for the third (an increase of .05) which, I feel, represents an increased utility in rough terrain (perhaps it should be a +0.1 increase? any ideas guys?). The description ...

"The 10.5cm Gebirgs Howitzer 40 was the most modern medium German mountain howitzer first used in 1940. It could fire about 6 rounds per minute at ranges of up to 12,325 meters. Weighing 1.65 tons, it could be carried in a horse cart or on mule/horse pack loads and could be emplaced on rougher ground than a standard Howitzer. The heaviest Mountain gun of WW2, it remained in service well into the 1950s."

128) 150mm SiG33: Basically the gun off the Bison, with the mods mentioned there. The description ...

"The sIG 33 Howitzer was assigned to infantry gun companiesin some infantry regiments. While some were mounted on self-propelled chassis (as the SdKfz 138 Biison) for Motorised and Mechanised units, most remained as towed artillery. This represents the gun only."

129) SP 20mm Flak 30/38: This is basically a Truck cloned with the weapons related values of a 20mm Flak gun added. The actual weapon was mounted on an unarmoured halftrack, so I used the truck as the basis, not a halftrack.

Description ...

"The 20mm Fliegerabwehrkanone -30 or -38 was a light anti-aircraft gun used by the Wehrmacht. It first entered service in 1934 and was used widely throughout the war. This is a self-propelled version mounted on an unarmoured halftrack."

130) SdKfz 22 Armoured Car: Again, a truck with a 20mm gun with non AA values (from the Panzer IIf), representing a lightly armoured 4-wheeled Armoured Car. This was being replaced by a halftrack with the turret from the AC, and I will eventually mod that as well, separately, as an alternative reinforcement type.

Description ...

"The SdKfz 222 Armoured car first appeared in 1938 as the main equipment in the Divisional Reconnaissance units of Motorised and Armoured Divisions. It was armed with a 20mm Automatic Cannon which retained some AA capabilities. It was soon relegated to rear area duties in the East, or to units stationed in the West, because of its limited range on internal fuel."

131) Csaba Armoured Car: Basically a clone of the -222, but used by the Hungarians. Description ...

"The Csaba Armoured Car was designed by a Hungarian expatriate who had worked on the British Alvis Armoured Car design. He designed the Csaba 39M for the Hungarian army and it was in service with it during Barbarossa and later. It was armed with a 20mm autocannon and two machineguns. Its main drawback was that it had an extremely short range on internal fuel."

Note: Both of the above vehicles are noted as having extremely short ranges. But how to mod this? There doesn't seem to be any range value for units. Initiative, which doesn't seem right, perhaps? Any suggestions?

132) SP 37mm Flak 36/37: This is basically a clone of the 20mm SP AA unit (above), but with extrapolated increased AA values for the larger caliber weapon (which I probably should mod separately as a towed piece).\

Description ...

"The 37mm Fliegerabwehrkanone -36 or -37 was a light anti-aircraft gun used by the Wehrmacht. It first entered service, as the unsuccessful Flak-18 in 1935, but was subsequently modified and eventually entered service in a more effective form by 1936. It remained in production throughout the war and was widely used in Divisional and higher level Flak batteries. This is a self-propelled version mounted on an unarmoured halftrack."

Apart from those sftypes mentioned above, the ones listed in the game do a surprisingly good job of modelling all the vehicles available in the period (as far as Ground vehicles go, anyway) ...

Any thoughts?

Phil

< Message edited by aspqrz -- 8/21/2012 2:41:37 AM >


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RE: New sftypes I have added - 8/21/2012 3:47:53 AM   
Ritterkrieg

 

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quote:

19) 150mm SiG33: This is the designation of the gun mounted on the chassis, not the Vehicle designation, which has been changed to the correct SdKfz 138 Bison ... there is now an 105mm SiG33 entry for the gun where deployed as a towwed piece, which it was, more often than not. The gun is shown as an artillery piece, which is completely wrong ... it was deployed alongside the 75mm Infantry Gun to give close support to Infantry units as an organic piece ... so, I have reduced range to 0 and StockUsePerRound and the values below it to 0, just as for the 75mm IG, which will reduce its effectiveness in line with its actual use.


Hey Phil, just a thought, the sIG 38(t)M 'Bison' Sd.Kfz. 138/1 came out in 1943 later than the start date of this campaign.

What you are looking for is the sIG 33 Sd.Kfz. 135/1 'Staumvater'. Both had the same 15cm sIG 33 main gun. The Bison was based on the Panzer38(t) chassis; the 'Staumvater' on the Panzer I and its a 150mm - not a 105.

Troy




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Post #: 2
RE: New sftypes I have added - 8/21/2012 4:24:03 AM   
aspqrz

 

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Hmm. Double checked my source ... "The Complete Encycolpaedia of Weapons of WW2" by Chris Bishop and it says ... "The ex-Czech PzKpfw 38t was also converted to act as a SiG carrier. In 1942 the first of a series of vehicles known collectively as 15cm sIG 33(Sf) auf PzKpfw 38(t) Bison SdKfz 138 were produced ... and this weapon/vehicle arrangement proved to be so successful that it was formalised in 1943 by the production of a new version ... This was a factory produced model rather than a conversion of existing tanks ..." ... it goes on to note that the SdKfz 238/1 was the designation of the factory produced models, which continued to be produced as late as 1944.

The SdKfz 135/1, however, while it did carry a 150mm Howitzer, carried an actual Artillery piece, not an Infantry Gun.

The ealier models of the Bison were the 15cm sIG33 auf Geschutzwagen 1 Ausf B and the 15cm SiG33 auf Fgst PzKpfw II (Sf) Verlanget

I'll change the text to reflect the above, however.

Of course, in any case, there is no practical difference in DCCB ... all the vehicles it was mounted on were "Light Tanks" as per the DCCB game system, so, functionally, the sftype would be identical except for the description

As for it being a 150mm ... that's what I have it listed as in the text you have quoted at the beginning, which is how it is recorded in the sftype, the mention of it being a 105mm later on is a typo (much gnashing of teeth, rending of clothes, and pouring of dirt into hair)

Thanks for the detail catch, I will change the Description of the Bison asap!

Phil

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RE: New sftypes I have added - 8/21/2012 4:36:13 AM   
Ritterkrieg

 

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All good; great to have someone who has the same attention to details!

Troy

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RE: New sftypes I have added - 8/21/2012 4:47:43 AM   
aspqrz

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ritterkrieg

All good; great to have someone who has the same attention to details!

Troy


Any other errors, or seeming errors, please do point to them ... it wouldn't be the first time I have made a mistake \

Phil

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RE: New sftypes I have added - 8/21/2012 5:40:20 PM   
Sator


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

Hmm. Double checked my source ... "The Complete Encycolpaedia of Weapons of WW2" by Chris Bishop and it says ... "The ex-Czech PzKpfw 38t was also converted to act as a SiG carrier. In 1942 the first of a series of vehicles known collectively as 15cm sIG 33(Sf) auf PzKpfw 38(t) Bison SdKfz 138 were produced ...
Phil


According to "Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War Two", by Peter Chamberlain and Hilary Doyle, the prototype of 15cm sIG 33(Sf) auf PzKpfw 38(t) Ausf H (SdKfz 138) was ready in June 1942. 90 were produced from February to April 1943 using the chassis of Pz Kpfw 38(t) returned from the front.

15cm sIG 33/1(SF) auf Selbstfahrlafette 38(t) Ausf K (SdKfz 138/1) was produced from April to June 1943 (200 units) and from October 1943 to September 1944 (82 units).

So these self-propelled heavy infantry guns were issued from early 1943.

Regards

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RE: New sftypes I have added - 8/21/2012 10:16:43 PM   
High Krausen


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I would like to see kradschutzen available as well

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RE: New sftypes I have added - 8/22/2012 3:12:24 AM   
aspqrz

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sator


quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

Hmm. Double checked my source ... "The Complete Encycolpaedia of Weapons of WW2" by Chris Bishop and it says ... "The ex-Czech PzKpfw 38t was also converted to act as a SiG carrier. In 1942 the first of a series of vehicles known collectively as 15cm sIG 33(Sf) auf PzKpfw 38(t) Bison SdKfz 138 were produced ...
Phil


According to "Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War Two", by Peter Chamberlain and Hilary Doyle, the prototype of 15cm sIG 33(Sf) auf PzKpfw 38(t) Ausf H (SdKfz 138) was ready in June 1942. 90 were produced from February to April 1943 using the chassis of Pz Kpfw 38(t) returned from the front.

15cm sIG 33/1(SF) auf Selbstfahrlafette 38(t) Ausf K (SdKfz 138/1) was produced from April to June 1943 (200 units) and from October 1943 to September 1944 (82 units).

So these self-propelled heavy infantry guns were issued from early 1943


Hmmm. I'd forgotten I had a copy of Chamberlain & Doyle's book.

Careful reading of the two entries regarding the SdKfz 138/1 shows that neither are, in fact, the SdKfz 138 ... which is, unfortunately, not described in Chamberlain & Doyle ... but is a different vehicle, according to the book I cited ... one produced in 1942 with the Howitzer mounted forward, while the other two models were produced in 1943, with the Howitzer mounted at the rear.

I have no idea why Chamberlain and Doyle do not list it ... it may be because the Bishop book is 20 years newer (1998 vs 1978) than C&D, or not.

Regardless, it makes no in game difference. They are all on what is classified as a Light Tank chassis. In game terms, that makes them identical.

The big difference is that they are Infantry Guns, like the 75mm LeIG, and not artillery, such as the 150mm sFH ... so they do not get any range, and do not get the 1:4 turn bonus for artillery supply the latter get.

I will indicate in the text for the vehicle that it represents an eclectic mix of functionally similar vehicles to help avoid arguments, though, since the sources themselves are of no particular help in clearing this up!



Phil

< Message edited by aspqrz -- 8/22/2012 3:14:21 AM >


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RE: New sftypes I have added - 8/22/2012 4:19:24 AM   
Ritterkrieg

 

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The sIG 33 Sd.Kfz. 135/1 vehicle (portrait in the game) is the sIG 33 auf Geschutzwagen. Virtually the same vehicle in game terms, is the Lorraineschlepper 150mm on the French chassis.

If that isn't confusing enough, the Lorraineschlepper used the 135/1 designation.

The 138/1 here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grille_(artillery)

was used in '43. I know, its wiki but I have other sources...

Troy

< Message edited by Ritterkrieg -- 8/22/2012 4:23:12 AM >

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RE: New sftypes I have added - 8/22/2012 7:25:46 AM   
aspqrz

 

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Yeah, I noticed the -135 and -138 potential for confusion!

I have, however, updated the description to ...

"The Invasion of Poland had shown that the sIG 33 Howitzers assigned to the infantry gun companies of the motorized infantry regiments had difficulties keeping up with the tanks during combat. The easiest solution was to use a spare, generally obsolete, tank chassis to carry it into battle. The first models were mounted on excess Pz I chassis, intermediate models (used only in North Africa) on Panzer II chassis, and, by mid 1942 this was in the process of being standardised on a Pz38(t) chassis as the SdKfz 138 Bison (later modified to -138/1 AusfH and-138/1 Ausf/K from 1943). In 1942, this represents the models mounted on the Panzer-I, progressively being replaced by those mounted on the Pz-38(t) ... which are functionally identical in game terms."

... which, I hope, will satisfy (or at least mollify) everyone!

Phil

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RE: New sftypes I have added - 8/22/2012 11:55:31 AM   
aspqrz

 

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133) Support Troops: Cloned from Militia, with reduced Entrenching (20) and Bridge Blowing (15) and changed graphics. Description ...

"These are personnel whose primary function witthin their unit is one that does not directly involve them in infantry combat. They may be anything from artillerymen through to clerks, from quartermasters to mechanics. Like all troops, however, they have had basic (often very basic) infantry and weapons training ... and, in an emergency, can help defend their unit. It is generally very unwise to use them in this way because of the inevitable loss of their specialist skills that result from any significant casualties."

These are used to replace all "Infantry" in Artillery units, after roughly halving the numbers available ... it is assumed that the bulk of the gunners are with the guns, and are lost with them as well. These are the odds and sods that could be scraped together in an emergency ... say, "We're being overrun by enemy infantry ... in 5 minutes ..." sort of situation.

134) 37mm Flak 36/37: A cloned SP 37mm Flak with Infantry movement type etc. with changed Graphics and slightly changed Description.

135) 75mm Field Gun: This is basically a slightly improved 75mm LeIG, with 1 hex range and Artillery supply values. It is normally used by some of the Axis allies for want of anything better. Changed Graphics and Description ...

"The 75mm Howitzer represents a variety of obsolete or obsolescent weapons, mainly used by Axis allies.It has similar values to the German 75mm Infantry Gun, with somewhat better range, but is deployed and utiised as proper artillery rather than as an infantry support weapon."

Phil

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RE: New sftypes I have added - 8/22/2012 12:01:55 PM   
aspqrz

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: High Krausen
I would like to see kradschutzen available as well


I am not sure exactly how this would be functionally different from plain motorised infantry. Different Graphics for the transport, I guess?

Functionally it would be the same as Truckborne infantry ... but it might be nice for graphic reasons alone

I guess you could even model Bicycle Infantry, too ... but that would be problematic ... as I really don't understand how to change speed from already existing core sftypes (i.e. Truckborne and Motorcycle Infantry would both use the motorised/truck base movement, for example ... but is there something better than foot, but not as good as motor? Cavalry? That would be too fast, I guess.)

Any idea, guys?

Phil

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RE: New sftypes I have added - 8/22/2012 12:20:19 PM   
aspqrz

 

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136) Motorcycles: As requested. These are trucks with Weight 1 and Load 1 and Fuel for Move 1 (instead of 2). Different Graphics and Description ...

"German industry was simply incapable of providing the Wehrmacht with the amount of vehicles needed to fully motorise it - throughout the war, at any given time, onlly about 15% of the Army's strength was in motorised units. Because of this, the Germans used any vehicle they could produce in numbers in combat and transport applications ... and this included motorcycles, These could be used in a Recon role quite successfully."

Bugger. Now I will have to go through TO&Es again and find which Recon units had Motorcycles.

Phil

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RE: New sftypes I have added - 8/22/2012 12:29:44 PM   
High Krausen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

136) Motorcycles: As requested.


Cool!, thanks

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RE: New sftypes I have added - 8/22/2012 12:31:44 PM   
High Krausen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

136) Motorcycles: As requested.


Cool!!, Thanks, now I have to figure out how to add them to model units


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RE: New sftypes I have added - 8/22/2012 3:27:36 PM   
aspqrz

 

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Easy.

1) Before adding them to MODEL units in HIS you must re-jig the base units in UNIT (i.e. the tabs in the top left of the Main Editor Screen)

2) Take, say, an German Infantry Regiment which has, as I have modded it, 35 x Infantry. Assume (and I am pulling a figure out of thin air here, so it is NOT representative) that the Regiment actually has a Company of Motorcycle Infantry ... a Company is approximately 200 men, so you will need 200 Motorcycles to represent their transport.

3) Simply use the "Add Subformation" button to add one, and the buttons below to change Nationality, Type, Number, Morale as appropriate.

Now, having done this, it has, as far as I can tell, absolutely no effect at all.

The majority of the Regiment is still Leg Infantry, and the whole Regiment moves at the pace they set. Not at the pace of the Motorcyclists. All this does is eat up some Truck replacement points. As does the 50 Trucks the Infantry Regiment actually had and which I have added to their unit description.

I am not sure that this is worth it ... and may simply delete those trucks eventually, as they have no game effect, except to eat up replacements. The same would really apply for Motorcycle troops.


4) That said, if you have a Motorcycle Recon unit in a Motorised Infantry, Panzergrenadier, or even a Panzer Regiment, then this means the Infantry mounted on them can keep up with the rest of the unit.

However, adding Infantry, however mounted, to a Panzer unit is a bad idea ... as, if they ever lose enough transport to leave even one point (100 men) of Infantry unmotorised, it reduces the whole unit to Infantry speeds.

To get around this, I may mod the values of the various Tanks and Assault guns to give them minimal load carrying capacity (equal to that of a Halftrack = 1? Or, if possible, give them a carrying capacity of 1/2 (assuming it just doesn't round up). Otherwise, its best to keep Infantry out of Armour units.


Another alternative is to create Motorcycle Infantry with the transport value of a Motorcycle and the Infantry value of, well, Infantry combined in the one unit. This would mean any loss of Motorcycles would = loss of Infantry, since they are part of the one unit ... but that would mean 1 point of Motorcycles = 5 actual Motorcycles and 100 actual infantry, which is messed up.

This is the way Cavalry works, so it is possible, I just don't know if its a good idea.

Again, the issue is that of reinforcements ... do Motorcycle Infantry take Truck Reinforcements (which are scarce) or Infantry Reinforcements (which are less scarce) ... the former would seem obvious, but, again, this takes up scarce Truck reinforcments.

You could have Motorised and Mechanised Infantry depicted likewise, Trucks or Halftracks with Infantry combat values ... but the same reinforcement dilemma applies.

Bicycle Infantry, on the other hand, should be doable ... since Bicycles aren't depicted in the reinforcement schedule, and they would simply be infantry with Bicycle movement rates ... except for the fact that there is no Bicycle movement rate in the game, as far as I can tell.

Multiple dilemmas

===== edit ====

Actually, for Motorcycle Infantry I could give them Move Type: Motorised, sftypegroup: Motorised, and yet keep them with Reinforcementype: Infantry, and it may not stuff things up too badly ... as long as people don't create Regiments full of 3500 Motorcycle Infantry!

If we could create a "Bicycle" movement type, we could do the same for Bicycle Infantry ... or we could simply give them "Cavalry" movement type, I guess.

Phil

< Message edited by aspqrz -- 8/22/2012 3:43:00 PM >


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Post #: 16
RE: New sftypes I have added - 8/23/2012 7:53:01 AM   
aspqrz

 

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On consideration of the problems, I have converted ...

136) Motorcycles ...

to

136) Motorcycle Recon: Basically Motorcycles using Infantry Replacements and with Infantry combat values and Halftrack convert destroy to retreat 50% of the time.

Modified description ...

"German industry was simply incapable of providing the Wehrmacht with the amount of vehicles needed to fully motorise it - throughout the war, at any given time, onlly about 15% of the Army's strength was in motorised units. Because of this, the Germans used any vehicle they could produce in numbers in combat and transport applications ... and this included motorcycles, These could be used in a Recon role quite successfully - and this unit represents a combination of Infantry and Motorcycles, using Infantry replacements.

Like Halftrack mounted infantry and weapons, Motorcycle Recon units have a 50% chance of turning a destroyed result into a Retreat instead."


... for this reason, I have also created ...

137) Panzergrenadiers: Which is basically Halftracks with Infantry values where they are better than the Halftrack values, but using Halftrack reinforcements and with a 100:1 ratio instead of 10:1.

Description ...

"The SdKfz 251 Mittlerer MG was a German armored half-track which could bring a squad of 10 soldiers into battle along with tanks. It provided reasonable armor protection against small arms fire or shells but was vulnerable to tanks or anti-tank weapons as well as airplanes as it had an open top. It was armed with an MG 34 or MG 42 in the front and an additional rear MG.

This represents Infantry mounted in Halftracks and uses Halftrack reinforcements. They should only be used in Panzer and PanzerGrenadier divisions.

(Designer's note: The SdKfz 251 has 50% chance to turn a "kill" result into a retreat due to its high mobility and ability to avoid direct fire in combat.)"


This allows these units to be deployed with the Armour, which, in Panzer, PanzerGrenadier and Motorised units, makes more sense and yet avoids converting those units to Foot movement if, as is eventually likely, the Infantry component finds there are too few Halftracks for all of them to use motorised movement ... since Panzergrenadiers use Halftrack replacements, losses of Halftracks = losses of Infantry so movement type reduction never takes place, as all losses include an equal amount of infantry (theoretically, mind ... and there are few enough Panzergrenadiers so that the fact they don't actually use Infantry replacements shouldn't cause a problem).



Phil




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< Message edited by aspqrz -- 8/23/2012 8:12:12 AM >


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Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon; Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
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Email: aspqrz@tpg.com.au

(in reply to aspqrz)
Post #: 17
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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Decisive Campaigns: Case Blue >> Mods and Scenarios >> New sftypes I have added Page: [1]
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