Matrix Games Forums

Pandora: Eclipse of Nashira Announced! Deal of the Week: Command Ops goes half price!New Fronts are opening up for Commander: The Great WarCharacters of World War 1Sign of for the Pike and Shot Beta!More Games are Coming to Steam! Return to the Moon on October 31st! Commander: The Great War iPad Wallpapers Generals of the Great WarDeal of the Week Panzer Corps
Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Axis Spoiling Attacks

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> The War Room >> Axis Spoiling Attacks Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Axis Spoiling Attacks - 8/17/2012 5:08:28 PM   
HITMAN202


Posts: 537
Joined: 11/10/2011
Status: offline
Often I'll use a spoiling attack (hasty) on a strongly defended hex with either a allied unit or a weak German unit that has extra MP's (can also participate in the primary attack.) ??? I think it helps ??? These failed attacks are usually not costly as "Scouted" is the outcome. ??? Opinions ???

_____________________________

WITE is a good addiction with no cure.
Post #: 1
RE: Axis Spoiling Attacks - 8/17/2012 5:28:15 PM   
gingerbread


Posts: 1712
Joined: 1/4/2007
From: Sweden
Status: offline
Whatever you hope to gain by this should be weighed against the possible morale gain for the defending unit(s), as well as the possible loss for yours. I would use this technique very rarely, if at all.

(in reply to HITMAN202)
Post #: 2
RE: Axis Spoiling Attacks - 8/18/2012 2:03:49 AM   
turtlefang

 

Posts: 333
Joined: 7/18/2012
Status: offline
I guess my first question is what are you trying to accomplish?

The second point, as already pointed out, is that any attack where you lose and the other side wins results in moral loss. Plus, it counts as a win for the Soviet unit toward Gd status.

So all I see is downside unless I'm missing something.

(in reply to HITMAN202)
Post #: 3
RE: Axis Spoiling Attacks - 8/18/2012 2:15:46 AM   
hfarrish


Posts: 705
Joined: 1/3/2011
Status: offline

I guess if it is a truly critical attack, it could be helpful in the sense of helping accomplish the goal - only if, as mentioned, the costs of a failed spoiling attack are taken into account.

(in reply to turtlefang)
Post #: 4
RE: Axis Spoiling Attacks - 8/18/2012 10:12:37 PM   
Disgruntled Veteran


Posts: 494
Joined: 2/19/2012
Status: offline
Thats the only way I can get across the Neva. I launched about 10-12 hasty/deliberate attacks in my current mp game before attacking with my primary 6. I used up all the reserve activations and the defenders were so exhausted my failed assaults were only losing about 50 men per attack. When I did attack it was much easier. Plus I didnt worry about guards or enemy moral b/c they will all be trapped and destroyed.Otherwise I dont see how people get across that particular river.

Besides the Neva it should be kept to limited use...only against very hardened targets..Sebastopol etc.

(in reply to hfarrish)
Post #: 5
RE: Axis Spoiling Attacks - 8/18/2012 10:49:11 PM   
turtlefang

 

Posts: 333
Joined: 7/18/2012
Status: offline
I can understand its use as part of a major offensive trying to use up the enemy reserves - where I have a problem is using it in isolation.

And even in the former case - while I understand the strategy and have used it myself - I have to admit I always hold my breath until the attacks are over. Too big a chance of something going horribly wrong.

(in reply to Disgruntled Veteran)
Post #: 6
RE: Axis Spoiling Attacks - 8/18/2012 10:57:21 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 2294
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline
I do this sometimes to get an accurate CV value of the enemy. It helps.

_____________________________

'Deus le Volt!'
------------------

(in reply to turtlefang)
Post #: 7
RE: Axis Spoiling Attacks - 8/19/2012 1:10:11 PM   
HITMAN202


Posts: 537
Joined: 11/10/2011
Status: offline
I brought up this issue because it hasn't been talked about much. I have started to test some specific situations (with command, reserve and air support removed to factor out those important variables) and one such is that in attacking a single fortified stack (level 2 fort) with 2 units that will win 90 % of the time with a "retreat" result, an preliminary hasty attack does not 1) cause routs, 2) does not increase Soviet casualties, and 3) increases Axis losses. That does not include the likelihood drop of Axis morale and increase in Soviet. The best explanation of the above is that Soviet morale increase benefits their combat value far more than the negative impact of increased fatigue.

Michael T.'s point is great.

But goodness gracious Dis. Vet., 10-12 hasties to soften up a big target ??? The issue of depleting reserve support is important, but 10-12 hasties ??? Just the MP cost of making them across the Neva seem prohibitive and in attacking the forts behind the Neva the Axis usually have no units to waste. Can the benefit of reserve support truly be eliminated ???

Dis. Vet., do you see my point ???

_____________________________

WITE is a good addiction with no cure.

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 8
RE: Axis Spoiling Attacks - 8/19/2012 5:26:03 PM   
Disgruntled Veteran


Posts: 494
Joined: 2/19/2012
Status: offline
quote:



But goodness gracious Dis. Vet., 10-12 hasties to soften up a big target ??? The issue of depleting reserve support is important, but 10-12 hasties ??? Just the MP cost of making them across the Neva seem prohibitive and in attacking the forts behind the Neva the Axis usually have no units to waste. Can the benefit of reserve support truly be eliminated ???

Dis. Vet., do you see my point ???


Not really.

When attacking the province behind the Neva it had (in my game) a lvl 4 fort with a FZ and 2 Rifle divs who were fat and happy. My main attack force of 6 divs (Yes..Model commanding, 90+ morale, and all had stugs and pioneers attached) had a combined 75CV. Thats (edit: NOT) enough to dislodge that province in 1 attack...even without reserve activation.

What I did is find my 4 lowest morale divisions and broke them into regiments. Thats 12 units who can attack..1 deliberate or 2 hasty. I used them all. The first attack drew 2 reserve activations and my regiment was used like a Tijuana whore. Out of 5k men they lost like 3500. Each successive attack drew less losses. I activated 6-8 reserves (dont remember) and the defenders were fully fatigued. Then my 75 CV stacks of doom came in and finished the job.

Was it overkill? Maybe, but A-game held me back until late September. He put a lot of strength into defending L-grad and it was brutal. I had exactly 2 turns to isolate the city before mud. I wasn't taking any chances. I used the same tactic again to widen the bridgehead the following turn.

Outside of swinging far right and taking the "shipping" ports I don't see a better way against a solid defense.


< Message edited by Disgruntled Veteran -- 8/19/2012 5:27:12 PM >

(in reply to HITMAN202)
Post #: 9
RE: Axis Spoiling Attacks - 8/20/2012 11:13:51 PM   
HITMAN202


Posts: 537
Joined: 11/10/2011
Status: offline
That's awesome Dis Vet. !!! I wonder if 2 hasties were less costly than 1 deliberate attack and trigger more Reserve activation ???? Did you also pelt the hex with a ton of air attacks and add on ground support ??? It's interesting. I've had so many turns as the Axis where the key to a major breakthrough was the success of a sequence of attacks in which the most critical was the first attack against a strongly fortified position. Your technique may be a winner .

_____________________________

WITE is a good addiction with no cure.

(in reply to Disgruntled Veteran)
Post #: 10
RE: Axis Spoiling Attacks - 8/21/2012 1:44:09 AM   
Marquo


Posts: 1337
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline
Jaime described this technique as the Soviet --> multiple hasty soak off attacks with armour and inf brigades before the "big one." This tactic takes advantage of what I consider to be an issue with the combat resolution process: losses seem proportional to the total amount of combattants. If 2,000 attacks 50,000 many less will be lost than if 10,000 attacks 50,000....and visa versa. The soak off eats up ammunition and causes fatigue out of proportion to the effort.

Marquo

(in reply to HITMAN202)
Post #: 11
RE: Axis Spoiling Attacks - 8/21/2012 1:47:32 AM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5720
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
These same tactics can be used to take Moscow when there are 3 Guard Corps defending each hex.

I would generally only use 6 hasty as that in 9 of 10 cases is more then enough.

Also make sure to do this after the rest of the front is done, this will also nerf the GG effect.

I have used this tactic to punch 3 wide 4 deep throught 3 and 4 lvl fort belts in 42.

You have tons of crap units to pick a spot and hasty front line of hexes then push them as side. The 2nd row you can do same thing as the center hex is clear of ZOC.

The high morale infantry take out 3rd row of forts.

The panzer units then punch through rest. Most games I just do the 4 rows then SHC says screw this and runs.

The down side is SHC can do same crap during blizzard as TDV does better then anyone.

Its really 100% not relistic, but again another area some have been exploiting form release to-date. As GHC its really only usefully on a large scale during 42 as SHc during blizzard and 44-45.

I am hoping this exploit is not part of WITW.

Its another area of game that I am surpised never got exposed during testing. I have posted its use in other very old AAR's.

Anyways if you think about it there are allot of other uses for this gamey, cheesy, O tactic.



< Message edited by Pelton -- 8/21/2012 1:51:10 AM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to HITMAN202)
Post #: 12
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> The War Room >> Axis Spoiling Attacks Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.078